Daredevil Elektra/Matt or Karen/Matt?

[Mike Murdock]

Keep in mind, Karen killed Wesley and has kept it a secret, Karen has another side to her and could find some solace in Frank that she can't in Matt.

Karen killed in self defense. She isn't seeking out people to murder.

With Frank and Matt, both have a reckless vigilante life. I can't imagine her issue with Matt is that he's not killing people.

 

[Poppy]

Matt/Elektra for sure. They are far more interesting and they do have chemistry.

After Defenders anyone like Matt/Jessica? Usually I'm sucker for that kind of (fictional) couple (the bantering and working together with sexual tension kept off-screen, like Kanan/Hera for example), but I also like the brooding hero/femme fatale trope (i.e. Batcat). Besides Matt/Elektra are doomed to only love each other and the actors' chemistry is off the chart.

I'm hoping that Matt new love interest is going to be a bit like Jessica, very sacarstic, funny and very different from Matt. Karen and Matt scenes are so....bland. Most of their scenes are so dramatic, she's always telling him to stop being Daredevil (that was Karen's whole plot in The Defenders). Honestly that pairing became boring right after episode 1.01.

 

[flickchick85]

After Defenders anyone like Matt/Jessica?

I'd absolutely be on board for them, I just know it has zero chance of actually happening, so I'm not even gonna bother hoping for it, lol.

 

[dmcreif]

I don't think it makes a ton of sense for Karen to be OK with Punisher but not OK with Daredevil. To me, there's a fundamental difference in the relationship. With Frank Castle, she feels pity not love.

That's how I see it too. Because if Karen was OK with Frank being a spree killer but not OK with Matt being Daredevil, well, she'd be a hypocrite or have weird double standards.

Honestly, I’m just very sick of people who claim that “Karen doesn’t support Matt as Daredevil”. It's like they don't pay attention to the show at all. Karen is not anti-Daredevil. She has always recognized his value even before she knew Daredevil was Matt Murdock. When he tells her it’s something he has to do, her response is a quiet “I know.” All she had been hearing from him up until then was that he was done with Daredevil, so I think it’s pretty understandable why Karen reacted the way to Matt telling her "I'm starting up this thing that days ago I told you I hated". Karen’s not anti-Daredevil; she just wants Matt to be honest with her and to be safe.

 

[dmcreif]

Sure, but she's holding out hope that it's a diversion precisely because she wants him to have a different life. But could she date Frank and not have the same hope that he would resume a normal life?

Yeah, she doesn't want Matt to DIE. Considering that at the end, it looks like Matt died in Midland Circle, that's a pretty reasonable reason to take issue with Matt's Daredevil outings. Also, Frank would never work out because he's so busy grieving his family and its their deaths that drive him. He'll never move on from them.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Right. She doesn't want Matt to die because of her feelings for him. It's why I don't think Punisher would make a ton of sense.

 

[dmcreif]

Right. She doesn't want Matt to die because of her feelings for him. It's why I don't think Punisher would make a ton of sense.

That. Plus the fact that when you stop to think about it, Karen would essentially be living with a target on her back because everyone in New York City and everyone's dog knows who Frank Castle is because they watch the news.

 

[dmcreif]

It's why I don't think Punisher would make a ton of sense.

Kastle is a no-no for me too. I mean, okay, when he shielded her from the Blacksmith's bullets in her apartment, I was glad he was protecting her. But other than that I've never really seen them as couple material, even though for some strange reason, you can find more than 700+ works on Archive of our Own with the Karen Page/Frank Castle tag, when there's only about 310 or so works with the Matt Murdock/Karen Page tag. Frank is still grieving his dead family, and as of The Defenders, Karen is currently mourning Matt, and the scene where Frank kills the Blacksmith in cold blood despite Karen begging him not to do it is enough for me to realize they're not meant to be. A lot of people on Kastle seem to expect/hope that The Punisher will bring out some kind of relationship between Karen and Frank, and I'm going to be laughing in their faces when it doesn't go the way they want it to go.

Now why is this Kastle ship so popular? Well,there are a few reasons. At least on Tumblr, it seems like a lot of people just like the sort of "bad boy" vibe, "Frank
with the sweet girl who's also troubled but somehow they manage to level each other off". Seriously, a lot of the pictures in the Kastle moodboards and such are guns and coffee and pictures of a blonde with a "bad boy" with some quote saying how they bring each other light or some other ********. The second is, we can all agree that Matt screwed up with Karen big-time in season 2. Karen deserves better than what Matt was giving her. The mistakes he made with Karen are ones that could have been avoided with a few simple conversations. This is why Kastle may have taken off.

Now I've seen a lot of Kastle shippers make different arguments for their ship. But one thing that seems to be recurring in their arguments on Tumblr are points that basically could be summed up as, “Frank is right for Karen because he didn’t do that stuff that Matt did!” which translates for me as "I want Frank to be Karen’s boyfriend because he’s not Matt." And, no. Just no. Frank’s fitness as a partner should depend solely on Frank’s qualities, and not negating Matt’s behavior.

Really, that's one reason I don't like the Kastle ship: that quite a lot of its fandom try to justify shipping Karen with Frank by using Matt's behavior to make Frank look better by comparison. Even in The Defenders, I've seen a lot of Kastle people refer to the exchange when Matt is grabbing Karen from her office and says Karen deserves better...

Matt Murdock: You deserve better, Karen.
Karen Page: So do you.

...by implying that Frank is what Matt meant or what it should mean, but that makes absolutely no sense to me. When Matt said Karen deserved better he didn't mean a serial killer, he meant "You deserve better than to constantly end up in danger because of my nighttime excursions as Daredevil".

And, there's one more thing about the Kastle ship that bother's me. It's the whole thing where the shippers like to say Frank "never lies to Karen like Matt does". I'm like, that is the most illogical argument ever. Matt's lies to an extent were formed (as he saw it) in the interest of protecting her (and ultimately that backfired). Karen and Frank only had half a season of interactions. Frank barely knows Karen like Matt does, and just because he called her "ma'am" a few times out of respect doesn't mean they're into each other. What Frank did by killing the Blacksmith in front of Karen was already pretty terrible, as was him using her for bait at the diner.

In a way, Kastle has the same flaw that Matt/Elektra has, in the sense that if it DID somehow happen there's no way it would work out long-term and it would ultimately crumble. The difference is that while Matt and Elektra had history due to their dating in college, Kastle has nothing to even go off of because Frank is torn up about his family and might not ever be able to move on, and Karen is projecting onto Frank a lot of her guilt over killing Wesley.

Right. She doesn't want Matt to die because of her feelings for him.

But that's not the only reason. Remember her "so do you" response to Matt's "you deserve better, Karen"? The way Karen said that line felt it was put in to remind the audience that Karen hasn't yet come clean to Matt about killing Wesley. I would also say she is accepting but not happy with Matt going back to Daredevil activities because she expects Matt to be better than a killer like her.

 

[dmcreif]

On the original topic, when it comes to Matt/Karen vs. Matt/Elektra, I consider the broader picture:

Matt/Elektra:

I think the reason Matt and Elektra's relationship is so attractive because it appears fiery and kind of hot (as someone else on the earlier pages said, there's "heat" in that relationship than Matt's relationship with Karen)...but at the same time when it comes down to it I don't think this relationship particularly works either, because they both bring out the worst in each other in a way and they're both looking for something the other person doesn't have or want to bring to the table. Within the context of Daredevil and The Defenders, it's clear that Matt and Elektra were bound to have a falling out one way or another, because of how destructive and toxic and abusive it was. Even if it hadn't been under Midland Circle, their ending was coming and there was almost nothing anyone could've done to stop it. Even in the comics their encounters prove disastrous, and in the end they still have that sort of lust for each other but they both know it won't work out and so far in the current state of things it doesn't seem like it's going to work out, not in the comics nor in the show.

Plus, Elektra is unable to escape her darkness. Now more than ever since dying. Dying changes a body as we've seen from Harold Meachum. She finds daytime Matt Murdock, avocado at law, to be boring. Elektra is only darkness.

Seriously, Matt and Elektra's "heat" tends to work for a spicy college girlfriend you remember but not for someone you're going to be with in the long run and actually plan to spend the rest of your life with.

Matt/Karen:

With Karedevil (Matt Murdock/Karen Page), it's clear they're going for a slow-burn approach, compared to the other Netflix MCU official couples of Ironwing (Danny Rand/Colleen Wing) and Nightcage (Luke Cage/Claire Temple). No, seriously, in Iron Fist, Danny and Colleen were romantically attached within five episodes of meeting, and they had sex in the seventh episode. That relationship felt a bit rushed, in all seriousness. Meanwhile, in Luke Cage, Luke and Claire first meet in episode 6 and by the end of the season, just 7 episodes later, they're a couple, and then they have passionate table-overturning sex at the start of The Defenders.

And in Daredevil, it takes seventeen episodes for Matt and Karen to have their first kiss, and after 34 episodes, they still haven't had sex (although they did come close to that after making out on Karen's front steps following their first date, but Matt turned Karen down due to a combination of A) he felt that he didn't want to have to explain his scars right when he was about to get laid because that's the worst mood-killer ever, B) he really felt he had to go ask Elektra the burning unresolved questions he's been dying all these years to ask her, and C) with Karen, he wants to do this slow and steady so that he can do things right, so he can't repeat with her the mistakes he made with Elektra).

Honestly, for Matt/Karen, the slow-burn route is really cute and kind of refreshing. There's nothing wrong with the cute girl falling for him and for things to go a bit slower as long as it's working out. In fact, I think it makes a stronger foundation. It's nice to see Matt and Karen's relationship grow organically and start from little crushes to something bigger and ultimately better. I don't see how anyone says Matt and Karen don't have chemistry. For most of season one, Karen kept stealing starry-eyed glances at Matt or blushing in his presence. Even when she's just with Foggy, she can't stop thinking about Matt. There's also that scene with Foggy when they're with at Elena's apartment, and their conversation ends up being about Matt. Karen just wants Foggy to feel her face because she's thinking of Matt, which is nicely called back in their rain kiss given the way Karen opens her eyes when Matt moves his hand to cup her face before pulling her in for the kiss.

And their last scene in season 1 was suggestive enough in the sense that the whole hand grab wasn't necessarily just a friendly "come on, let's go inside", you could tell from Matt's and Karen's expressions it was meant to be a bit more.

And Karen is definitely the best thing Matt could ever have. She's both light and dark, no different from Matt. Her career in journalism is her own form of vigilante justice. Just like Matt's form of vigilante justice is putting on a Devil suit and beating the **** out of strangers, Karen runs around punishing the rich and powerful who escape the law by exposing them in the Bulletin for the public to see. Lawyer Matt vs vigilante Daredevil is the heart of the show and Karen embodies the balance between the two.

And let's be fair, Karen is a better written love interest than Elektra. Elektra really is only attached to Matt's storyline, whereas Karen is firmly her own independent character who can get involved with storylines beyond just the ones that Matt is involved with, as her presence in The Punisher demonstrates.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Elodie Yung's elektra has been a total bust for me, so I guess Matt/Karen by default.

 

[pixen]

Matt is a tragic figure and I don't really see him ending up with anyone.

BUT, I think I'd rather him with Elektra over Karen as Elektra does bring out his fiery side and it makes him want to step out and be Daredevil.

Also Elodie Yung was perfect as Elektra.

 

[dmcreif]

Charlie Cox seems to prefer Matt with Karen. He's said a lot about how he hopes season 3 will explore the relationship in further depth.

 

[dmcreif]

She may have realized that it's not a good idea to change Matt, but that doesn't mean she's capable of changing her personality and not trying to change him. Ultimately, her personality has a certain selfish nihilism that I don't think she'd ever get past, even if Matt brings out the best in her.

Considering she wanted to take over the Hand's dragon bone mining thing for her own selfish desires, that's an understatement...

 

[Iron_Stark]

Elektra and Matt. They have the chemistry, and I found myself rooting for them to get back together at the end in Defenders.

Matt and Karen, feels so bleh. Reminds me of Rick and Michone, no chemistry and feel queasy when they kiss because it would be like seeing a brother/sister kiss.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Give him a new love interest. I don't see much chemistry with either

 

[dmcreif]

With today's casting news that Wilson Fisk will be returning for season 3, I think I'm shifted more towards Matt/Karen. Why? Because Fisk coming back means it's almost a certainty that Vanessa will be coming back as well. And the thing about Vanessa is that she's the only one Fisk has ever allowed himself to open up to (outside of Wesley). This is just like how Karen is the only person Matt has ever allowed himself to be vulnerable around. And the parallels between Matt/Karen/Foggy and Fisk/Vanessa/Wesley are very clear the more you think about it. Not to mention that it does seem like the Elektra storyline is finished, or at least, on temporary hiatus, plus the actors and writers have hinted for a really long time that Matt/Karen would basically be endgame at some point.

 

[dmcreif]

Yeah, the book on Karen and Matt is closed, she just doesn't get him, and with her role in the Punisher, there will probably be some romance there.

Now that The Punisher is out, let's consider something: if Frank had any romantic interest in Karen, Karen would be the one he was thinking about at the end, not Maria and his kids. The Punisher made clear that Frank's not just missing Maria, he's still actively in love with her.

In an interview on uproxx, Jon Bernthal said that Frank sees Karen as what Lisa could've grown up to be like:

"And I think that’s really what this thing is, and no matter what they put down there, me and Deb refuse to label that relationship, and anything is possible. I’ve always thought Frank sees in Karen what he would hope and think that his daughter would have grown up to be like. Intelligent and brave and courageous and bold. But then, it could be anything, and I think it’s just these people that are drawn to each other."

The smartest thing The Punisher did when it came to Frank's marriage with Maria, was save their love scenes until the end episodes. This shows that whatever Frank feels for Karen or even Sarah, it'll always pale compared to Maria, who wasn't just the mother of his two kids, but the love of his life.


Now, on the subject of Matt/Karen vs. Matt/Elektra: Elektra's one of only a few people Matt could be open and honest with. Matt needed some closure over his deeply-in-self-destructive-love relationship with her. Part of him will always love her. He's not in love with Elektra, but he loves her deeply and thinks of her as family, just like how Frank sees Karen as family. It's about trust.

After all those scenes across the second season of Daredevil, Elektra was the one who calmed Matt so that he could save Karen, because she knew what Karen meant to Matt. She knew he was flipping out because he was afraid Karen would get hurt. Elektra knew he was in love with Karen, and accepted it, even helped him save her, even. What Matt and Elektra have is a very convoluted, messed up relationship, but it was formative to what defines Matt as a character.

There's an Empire podcast where Charlie Cox and Elodie Yung talked about Matt and Elektra's arcs in the second season of Daredevil. In the podcast, they confirmed that the whole "let's survive and we'll run away together forever" was just wish fulfillment that they were only believing because they knew they were going to die (the scene being very akin to the Bolivian Army ending of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid). Charlie Cox also said that by the end of season 2, Matt had concluded that Karen was the great love of his life...except Matt thinks he's too complicated for her, and she represents an apparent purity that Matt doesn't think he deserves (imagine how he'll react when he learns that she killed Wesley).

 

[dmcreif]

Do I still want to see a romance between Matt and Karen, post season 2 and post-Defenders? Yes. They have the potential to be an amazing couple. They share the same idealism, the same reckless determination to see justice done, they will understand each other and support each other.

Karen is strong, smart, gutsy, kind, and amazingly resilient. She can sometimes be naive, and her choices sometimes put her in danger. But she learns from her mistakes, and keeps going, and finds another way. And somehow she remains, despite everything, brave, and determined, and compassionate. All of which makes her perfect for Matt. Anyone who’s going to love Daredevil and not be destroyed in the process needs to be all of those things.

And Matt needs someone who knows him fully and can accept both sides of him. But Karen can, and will, once she’s given the chance. She spends most of season 2 showing compassion and understanding toward first Grotto and then Frank, so of course she can accept that Matt, who she already cares for, is Daredevil, who she already admires.


BUT...Matt needs to earn it. Because while Karen may be perfect for him, Matt's behavior so far has not made him a good partner for her. In order to earn Karen, he'll need to acknowledge the hurt he’s caused, and make amends. I want to see that process unfold, I want the show to respect Karen enough to give her the space they gave Foggy, to be angry, to stand up for herself and her needs, to make Matt see that his decisions have consequences. I believe they love each other and will be happy together. But the harm he’s done needs to not be waved away and disregarded.

The other problem that needs to be overcome is Matt’s feelings for Elektra. Was he in love with her? The conversation they had in the final episode, before going out to fight the ninjas on the roof, could be interpreted that way. Other totally valid interpretations are that Matt's desire to be with Elektra is entirely due to the fact that she knew his violent side and accepted it—that he was not really in love with her, he was just desperate for that acceptance.

Of course the irony there is that Elektra didn’t fully accept Matt. His violent side was the only part she cared about, she dismissed his daytime self as completely unimportant. She did come to value his compassion, but only in its application to herself, because she's a selfish person by nature, given her behavior in The Defenders after her memories came back.

But if that acceptance was all it was, and not love, then the show needs to make that very clear before Matt tries to restart a relationship with Karen. Karen deserves better than to be some consolation prize Matt is only settling for because Elektra isn't around. In season 3, they shouldn't short-change the relationship, but put the time and effort into making it real and convincing. Show us that Matt is willing to work for this and earn it. Show us that he has learned from his mistakes. Show us that Karen is his true choice, not a second choice.

Matt's feelings for Elektra will always be the lingering problem. There will always be the seed of doubt, at least to someone, that if Elektra and not Karen would be the one for Matt. Then there's the fact that the Matt/Karen relationship never got the focus it truly deserves, with the writers always giving more focus to other dynamics (Matt and Foggy, Matt and Elektra; Foggy and Karen, Frank and Karen, etc.)

I am, in general, more worried about how they do Matt/Karen, then whether or not they will. There are various tropes about fictional relationships that I do not want to see more of, after seeing them used in season 2, and I hope they won’t fall into going forward. Love triangles, for one. Keeping secrets, for another.

 

[Iceman]

Karen and Frank, Matt & Elektra (not so much a relationship as sexual tension during their alliances).

 

[dmcreif]

After Defenders I don't think there is any doubt as to who Matt truly loves, [BLACKOUT]it's Elektra[/BLACKOUT].

As far as I'm aware, Matt "loves" Elektra, but he is not "in love" with her anymore.

 

[eon001]

Hmm you guy's have forgotten the real power couple. t:

Hope they cross paths at some point in the Netflix world.

 

[dmcreif]

Hmm you guy's have forgotten the real power couple. t:

Hope they cross paths at some point in the Netflix world.

It's a pity that we didn't get to see Elektra and Frank cross paths during season 2 at any point. I would have actually liked the season 2 finale to have had Frank over on the same rooftop where Matt and Elektra were fighting the ninjas.