Fantastic 4 # 562--spoilers to follow

[roach]

At this point this should probably go in that Norman Osborn thread, but whatevs.Very true, HAMMER is far from comprised of ordinary citizens. In fact, most of HAMMER is comprised of former SHIELD agents, and particularly so when you consider that the organization has been around for a few weeks old at most at this point. SHIELD, and now HAMMER, are the Marvel universe staples of what prototypical government soldiers are supposed to be like. Were we not supposed to believe that the members of SHIELD were supposed to be the good guys, not too long ago? Are you trying to tell me that these people are going to have no qualms whatsoever about shooting their prior director in the face? 'Cause of, I dunno, WAR TERRORISM WAR or whatever

But it so real because thats what our CIA, FBI, Local Police, Military, Salvation Army does now....

 

[3dman27]

HAMMER is a US organization. The US pulled its funding from SHIELD, which apparently resulted in SHIELD's collapse, and created HAMMER. From what I can tell, both SHIELD and HAMMER are military peacekeeper sorts of deals with covert ops arms. So they're both soldiers and spies.

as in ULTIMATE SHIELD?

 

[The Question]

Right, but...Doom doesn't garner any mystical power precisely because he doesn't kiss supernatural ass. Doom is a ****** magician. It's never been any different. The one time he had even a little bit of mystic esteem is when he flagrantly cheated by using his tech, and even then he only got second place.

I admit that you're right. At this point I'm just saying that it's not the worst screw up you could ever have with Doom. It's not like they've revealed he's secretly in love with Reed or anything.

 

[moraldeficiency]

The stuff you're talking about with the clone is right after the DCU went through a Crisis where people from alternate universes -- and the alternate universes themselves -- showed up at everyone's doorsteps. So I personally didn't think it was particularly stupid for anyone to accept "clones" as a rational explanation at that point. It also happened during 52, a series in which Luthor was arrested at the end. He ran for president years before that.

Ah, and which issues of SHIELD, Captain America, Iron Man, the Initiative, or any other series about SHIELD did you read, exactly, where you saw agents who unflinchingly murdered unarmed, restrained, and unresisting prisoners while en route to base? No really, I'd like to know this, so I can rag about that series as well.

Oh wait "they hated Hill." I guess that means they would shank her, then. Or because of WAR. Or something.

Did they crisis that out too? I thought is was left in? If so, my bad. God I hate those crisises. Oh you mean because of the alternate people? If he used that, that would have probably flew, but I believe he said that camdus cloned an evil luthor and people bought that. Not really a great story or idea. Maybe I have my time line wrong on this so I'll concede the point. Though I will say superman fights lex all the time, so the DCU citizens just disregarded all that, or don't trust superman's judgement very much.

Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD. They capped people all the time, often invading other countries to take out people. Nick didn't read rights he straight up shot people. Also Secret War, I know it's bendis but the action wasn't very out of character for Fury. As far as the murder helpless kittens argument, Maria Hill isn't a joke for a combatant and shouldn't be treated as someone unable to defend herself as she's shown time and again. Just cause she seems down doesn't mean she's not a serious threat. You react accordingly and protect yourself, and SHIELD doesn't read people their rights, they have no such authority or doctrine.

You never wanted to kill your boss? Now compound that with terrorist fever and get an order from your highest authority to take that "terrorist" boss out and you'd probably do it with a smile. I mean it happens in the real world all the time after a regime change. These are people trained to kill, not adorable puppies here. Take that trained killer tell him their boss who they hated has been a terrorist sympathizer and is a traitor to the whole planet, then tell that person they need to take care of this dangerous criminal who's been using you to betray your whole race and I don't think you'd find much hesitation or remorse.

 

[Blader5489]

Were we not supposed to believe that the members of SHIELD were supposed to be the good guys, not too long ago?

No, they aren't "good guys." They're soldiers, they do as they're told. They can only be as "good" as their leader. And in this case, the director of SHIELD isn't much of a good guy.

But it so real because thats what our CIA, FBI, Local Police, Military, Salvation Army does now....

Which part of "HAMMER is more like the CIA than a police department" confused you?

 

[Harlekin]

Nick Fury needs to kick Norman Osborn's ass. Badly.

 

[Obi-Ron]

It's more fun when Spidey does it.

 

[The Overlord]

I admit that you're right. At this point I'm just saying that it's not the worst screw up you could ever have with Doom. It's not like they've revealed he's secretly in love with Reed or anything.

That's not a good argument, jsut because it isn't the worst story idea they can do with Doom, doesn't make it a good one or one that should be told.

 

[The Question]

That's not a good argument, jsut because it isn't the worst story idea they can do with Doom, doesn't make it a good one or one that should be told.

Funny thing: I'm not making that argument. I'm just saying that it's not worth getting up in arms about, compared to a lot of massively more ******ed things that could be done with the character. Hell, I wouldn't even call this ******ed. More shortsighted.

 

[BrianWilly]

Did they crisis that out too? I thought is was left in? If so, my bad. God I hate those crisises. Oh you mean because of the alternate people? If he used that, that would have probably flew, but I believe he said that camdus cloned an evil luthor and people bought that. Not really a great story or idea. Maybe I have my time line wrong on this so I'll concede the point. Though I will say superman fights lex all the time, so the DCU citizens just disregarded all that, or don't trust superman's judgement very much.

I'm talking about when Luthor used Alexander Luthor as a scapegoat following Infinite Crisis. I also admit that I don't really know too much about the mid-90s Cadmus stuff that you're talking about where Lex had that full head of red hair, so I suppose some really stupid excuses could have come up at the time.

Superman didn't actually fight Lex Luthor much. At least not directly, and never in front of ordinary people. Luthor schemes and he hires out thugs, he doesn't really get his own hands dirty and certainly not in fisticuffs with the most powerful being on the planet. Now obviously everyone was aware that Superman and other heroes didn't seem to like Luthor much but, again, there just wasn't any evidence behind anything. If Superman had gotten a bunch of his friends and denounced Luthor in front of the world -- again, without any proof of his wrongdoings at all -- it would have actually seemed like the big powerful inhuman gods were picking on the poor human guy who dared to speak out against them. And Luthor of course played that up all the time.

Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD. They capped people all the time, often invading other countries to take out people. Nick didn't read rights he straight up shot people. Also Secret War, I know it's bendis but the action wasn't very out of character for Fury. As far as the murder helpless kittens argument, Maria Hill isn't a joke for a combatant and shouldn't be treated as someone unable to defend herself as she's shown time and again. Just cause she seems down doesn't mean she's not a serious threat. You react accordingly and protect yourself, and SHIELD doesn't read people their rights, they have no such authority or doctrine.

You should really read this issue that you're mitigating, because it doesn't happen like that at all. Maria Hill was handcuffed, onboard their plane, and she was unconscious right up till the moment they were about to kill her because they had whacked her with a gun after she surrendered to them. This wasn't a combat situation, they weren't "protecting themselves." It was coldblooded execution...hell, not even that, it was coldblooded murder of a compliant prisoner, pure and simple. I challenge you to find me a scene where Nick Fury or anyone else under his command killed a restrained prisoner. Not "straight up shot someone," not "invaded another country," but shoots and kills a noncombatant prisoner that had surrendered already and that was handcuffed in your vehicle.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

as in ULTIMATE SHIELD?

Basically, yeah. I guess Bendis just got tired of people on message boards going, "You know SHIELD isn't a US organization, right?" Now he can go, "Yeah, but HAMMER is, so f*** off."

It's more fun when Spidey does it.

Given his current position, I'd take a Fury ass-kicking for Norman over a Spider-Man one any day. I'm content enough with the Jimmy Woo ass-kicking he'll get in Agents of Atlas, though, even if it is more of an organizational ass-kicking rather than a personal one.

 

[The Question]

I'm talking about when Luthor used Alexander Luthor as a scapegoat following Infinite Crisis. I also admit that I don't really know too much about the mid-90s Cadmus stuff that you're talking about where Lex had that full head of red hair, so I suppose some really stupid excuses could have come up at the time.

Superman didn't actually fight Lex Luthor much. At least not directly, and never in front of ordinary people. Luthor schemes and he hires out thugs, he doesn't really get his own hands dirty and certainly not in fisticuffs with the most powerful being on the planet. Now obviously everyone was aware that Superman and other heroes didn't seem to like Luthor much but, again, there just wasn't any evidence behind anything. If Superman had gotten a bunch of his friends and denounced Luthor in front of the world -- again, without any proof of his wrongdoings at all -- it would have actually seemed like the big powerful inhuman gods were picking on the poor human guy who dared to speak out against them. And Luthor of course played that up all the time.

Plus, like many people who like to act outside of the system in order to help it, how surprising is it for super heroes to not trust a big business type?

 

[The Overlord]

Funny thing: I'm not making that argument. I'm just saying that it's not worth getting up in arms about, compared to a lot of massively more ******ed things that could be done with the character. Hell, I wouldn't even call this ******ed. More shortsighted.

Who cares if it isn't the worst story that can be told with this charter, its just sub par idea, instead of a god awful one, I don't care, its not a good tale and by that reason alone it shouldn't be told. It completely goes what has been established with Doom for the past 40 years and seems like a cheap way to make this new villain seem impressive, by doom call him master, it reeks of cheap theatrics.

 

[Sardaukar]

So this guy has a master?

Yeah, that's more like it.

 

[roach]

No, they aren't "good guys." They're soldiers, they do as they're told. They can only be as "good" as their leader. And in this case, the director of SHIELD isn't much of a good guy.



Which part of "HAMMER is more like the CIA than a police department" confused you?

it was a snarky jab since we all believe that everything about our government is evil isnt that right?

Soldiers do as they are told as long as it doesnt break any laws.

 

[BrianWilly]

Plus, like many people who like to act outside of the system in order to help it, how surprising is it for super heroes to not trust a big business type?

Right, exactly.

I mean, imagine a scenario where there's a group of really powerful people on the planet and everyone pretty much likes them because they help people out. But they're essentially vigilantes, not employed in true capacity. The only way they operate is through everyone's trust.

Imagine then if there's one person on the planet, a completely respected businessman and a philanthropist, who apparently doesn't like them. And then imagine what it would seem like if all of those powerful people all of a sudden used their power and influence to shut him down. It sure would look like they couldn't take the heat and is instead taking it out on the little guy. It sure would raise questions about what they would do to anyone else who decided to have an opinion against them.

Luthor plays the victim card all the time. The big strong alien planetshaking god is harassing him, and so forth. And people don't truly discount that attitude because, in reality, it's what they all secretly fear too.

 

[GyLocke]

God I love a well written Luthor. I hope he goes back to his old school ways from the "skinny crazy guy escaping prison and putting on a ******ed suit again and again".

 

[3dman27]

if you mean the mad scientist type i'm with you

 

[Blader5489]

it was a snarky jab since we all believe that everything about our government is evil isnt that right?

Is that what I said?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

God I love a well written Luthor. I hope he goes back to his old school ways from the "skinny crazy guy escaping prison and putting on a ******ed suit again and again".

if you mean the mad scientist type i'm with you

Amen. Cunning, manipulative Luthor > ******ed mad scientist Luthor.

 

[fifthfiend]

it was a snarky jab since we all believe that everything about our government is evil isnt that right?

Soldiers do as they are told as long as it doesnt break any laws.

Yes, no soldier ever broke a law. They're perfect moral paragons, eeeeeeeeeeeeeevery single one.

And next I'll read you the one about the mother who lived in the shoe.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I'm talking about when Luthor used Alexander Luthor as a scapegoat following Infinite Crisis. I also admit that I don't really know too much about the mid-90s Cadmus stuff that you're talking about where Lex had that full head of red hair, so I suppose some really stupid excuses could have come up at the time.

They did.

Superman didn't actually fight Lex Luthor much. At least not directly, and never in front of ordinary people. Luthor schemes and he hires out thugs, he doesn't really get his own hands dirty and certainly not in fisticuffs with the most powerful being on the planet. Now obviously everyone was aware that Superman and other heroes didn't seem to like Luthor much but, again, there just wasn't any evidence behind anything. If Superman had gotten a bunch of his friends and denounced Luthor in front of the world -- again, without any proof of his wrongdoings at all -- it would have actually seemed like the big powerful inhuman gods were picking on the poor human guy who dared to speak out against them. And Luthor of course played that up all the time.

While I know what you're saying, it's still weird. At this time if anyone on the DCU earth thinks supes is a tyrant for picking on poor little lex, then they're morons.

You should really read this issue that you're mitigating, because it doesn't happen like that at all. Maria Hill was handcuffed, onboard their plane, and she was unconscious right up till the moment they were about to kill her because they had whacked her with a gun after she surrendered to them. This wasn't a combat situation, they weren't "protecting themselves." It was coldblooded execution...hell, not even that, it was coldblooded murder of a compliant prisoner, pure and simple. I challenge you to find me a scene where Nick Fury or anyone else under his command killed a restrained prisoner. Not "straight up shot someone," not "invaded another country," but shoots and kills a noncombatant prisoner that had surrendered already and that was handcuffed in your vehicle.

Read the issue but thanks for the advice. Consider the skrulls thought they had her beat only for her to take out an entire unit. This would be why they kept her KO'd along with the fact that they hated her. I don't see this as going that far, I've seen much worse in the service over much less people get excuted all the time and the guys doing it had good motivation.

 

[Obi-Ron]

So I guess no one has any thoughts on Ben popping the question?

 

[Franklin Richards]

The man is lonely and apparantly Alicia is dead. I don't mind it but it seems like it's set up to fail.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

But Alicia was just in Avengers: The Initiative.