Feige: "more than half of [heroes] will be women."

[MasterCat]

I'm sorry, but that is how I see the argument. Complaining if they do a mainly female X-Men because %'s should work that way, when the world population is almost 50/50 men vs women, so if %'s were to be followed, it should apply not just to mutants, but enhanced as well. Many of the most iconic female characters are mutants, so it is the most sensible place to mine. You can't have it both ways.

Rationally, it's not the same. There are lots of different origin stories for superpowers, and they don't all logically entail sex parity. Like, most soldiers are male, so if Super Soldiers/sci-fi military equipment is one of several possible origins, the laws of genetics don't have to warp so that extra female babies are born with the X-gene to balance out male enhanced soldiers.
If there's a rational idea for getting women to outnumber men, that's fine, but implying that I shouldn't apply reason to a superhero universe or it's internalized misogyny is pure postmodernism.

 

[Flint Marko]

The X-Men franchise is definitely where Marvel keeps its interesting female characters. However, making the X-Men overwhelmingly female would be illogical pandering: there's no reason X-gene births wouldn't be 50-50.

We're talking about movies where people ride ants and talk to trees, right?

 

[Spider-Fan]

Rationally, it's not the same. There are lots of different origin stories for superpowers, and they don't all logically entail sex parity. Like, most soldiers are male, so if Super Soldiers/sci-fi military equipment is one of several possible origins, the laws of genetics don't have to warp so that extra female babies are born with the X-gene to balance out male enhanced soldiers.
If there's a rational idea for getting women to outnumber men, that's fine, but implying that I shouldn't apply reason to a superhero universe or it's internalized misogyny is pure postmodernism.

Right, but Marvel is guilty of misogyny. Case in point, the villain of IM3 was supposed to be the women who created Extremis. But they made the villain Killian last minute. Because of Perlmutter. Perlmutter set getting characters like Wasp or Captain Marvel in the forefront of their own films back many years. Feige seems to recognize that wasn't right.

Also, the X-Men you would see in the movies wouldn't be the worlds only mutants. They would just be the ones we see in the movie. If the team is made mostly up of females to highlight some of the more iconic X-Men, and to put some of Marvel's most prominent females into the universe, I am perfectly fine with it. Just having more female mutants in X-Men movie doesn't mean X-gene favors women. Again, that is a baseless argument.

I love the MCU. It's my favorite film series. But to say it has not been mostly a sausage fest is naive, and that should change.

 

[Big Bang]

Fans are the life blood of a franchise, but who says the only fans who should be serviced are the ones who catch comic book easter egg references? These movies are seen by millions of people around the world and take in (when they're big) billions. They can try to reach to a wider audience than just the mostly male comic fan community, and perhaps in the process they can also shine a light on the female roster of comicdom that has been so woefully underrepresented for decades onscreen that Wonder Woman's release in 2017 felt like a small cultural phenomenon.

Who says they are? Plenty of even casual observers enjoy the characters. Representation does not automatically equality quality. Non-white characters are just as capable of being awful as white characters. People don't automatically associate with someone just because they look the same. Ellen Ripley has more male fans than she does female. Even with Wonder Woman, a large portion of the audience (maybe even the majority), where male DC fans.

The best superhero movies do not make the messaging secondary, and that includes The Dark Knight Trilogy, Logan, Spider-Man 2, and yes, even some of the best Marvel Studios films like Black Panther and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2. Saying genre cannot be meaningful is shortchanging the genre we all like as being intellectually hollow, especially when these elements tend to serve characters better.

The best superhero films are able to interweave the two. GOTG 2 is a great blend of heroes dealing with family, fathers, and nature vs nurture. Black Panther does an even better job, and even manages to put an ethno-nationalist state dealing with xenophobia in a positive light. There is a lot of political irony in that idea, and I think the writers did a superb job pulling that off. Again, good storytelling used political agenda as a vehicle, rather than the other way around. That is the way it should be.

Consider how woefully underused Black Widow has been for all these years or, in the case of 20th Century Fox, Storm or Rogue.

I don't disagree. It's a down right literary crime how badly the X-Women have been handled by Fox. Marvel Studios could have done a better job with Black Widow as well. However, on the plus side they've managed to have demand created for those characters. It is a golden opportunity for them take advantage of. If the delay is because they wanted to put a good story together, than that is acceptable.

So why is there something inherently wrong with having an ensemble that is more equal? This thread is filled with so much anxiety and suspicion based on a single quote that sounds like it was almost off-the-cuff.

If I had to point at any specific reason behind some of those sentiments, I'd say it is because of the situation that is plaguing Lucasfilm and even more so because both companies are under the Disney umbrella. Many Star Wars fans are also Marvel fans. They've seen first hand how a political agenda driven company directive can have adverse effects on a product. The box office has been dropping from film to film, and merchandise sales have bottomed out worldwide. Marvel fans don't want to see that happen with this franchise, and I can honestly see where those who are leery are coming from.

Clearly Feige is aware one of Marvel's blindspots is its misuse and neglect of female characters, especially for a young audience of girls who have shown to exist for these kind of films thanks to Hunger Games, Wonder Woman, and Star Wars. He says they will try to correct it. That isn't based on an agenda, it is based on recognizing a shortcoming of what came before and correcting it.

However upping the number of female characters does not automatically translate to young girls taking up the product. In fact, I'd once again look to the Star Wars situation for guidance. Up to the very day Toys R Us was closing, among the pile of unsold inventory was Star Wars merchandise that was marketed to girls. Enormous piles. They were heavily catered to, but they didn't show up to buy that merchandise. It's gotten to the point where the toys are even starting to disappear from shelves or have the Star Wars section's footprint drastically reduced. Then there is the diminishing box office returns of the film. It's gotten so bad that Bob Iger himself has reported involved himself and is trying to remove Kathleen Kennedy. Given all that corporate drama, I completely understand why Feige is tip toeing.

 

[Big Bang]

Right, but Marvel Perlmutter is guilty of misogyny

Perlmutter was a serious PITA. I think we can all agree on that.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Perlmutter was a serious PITA. I think we can all agree on that.

Oh, I mentioned it was cause of Perlmutter in the post, LOL! But never the less, he represented Marvel, so those types of decisions do reflect on Marvel.

 

[MasterCat]

We're talking about movies where people ride ants and talk to trees, right?

Yes? There are a variety of genre conventions you can approach shrinking down to ride ants and meeting talking trees in, though.
Science fiction is not the same as surrealist humor, which is not the same as postmodernism.
Do you want to see Thanos arrested by the NYPD in Avengers 4?

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yes? There are a variety of genre conventions you can approach shrinking down to ride ants and meeting talking trees in, though.
Science fiction is not the same as surrealist humor, which is not the same as postmodernism.
Do you want to see Thanos arrested by the NYPD in Avengers 4?

So, asking for more female heroes/mutants is the same as asking for Thanos to be arrested by the cops? Come on man, that is garbage.

 

[Flint Marko]

Yes? There are a variety of genre conventions you can approach shrinking down to ride ants and meeting talking trees in, though.
Science fiction is not the same as surrealist humor, which is not the same as postmodernism.
Do you want to see Thanos arrested by the NYPD in Avengers 4?

I don't follow your point with Thanos. At all.

I'm saying it's a weird time to bring "logic" into the picture. Hypothetically making the X-men mostly female is just as "illogical" as 5/6 main Avengers all being straight white men. Did you question that back in 2012?

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't follow your point with Thanos. At all.

I'm saying it's a weird time to bring "logic" into the picture. Hypothetically making the X-men mostly female is just as "illogical" as 5/6 main Avengers all being straight white men. Did you question that back in 2012?

But but....RATIOS!!!

 

[MasterCat]

However upping the number of female characters does not automatically translate to young girls taking up the product. In fact, I'd once again look to the Star Wars situation for guidance. Up to the very day Toys R Us was closing, among the pile of unsold inventory was Star Wars merchandise that was marketed to girls. Enormous piles. They were heavily catered to, but they didn't show up to buy that merchandise. It's gotten to the point where the toys are even starting to disappear from shelves or have the Star Wars section's footprint drastically reduced. Then there is the diminishing box office returns of the film. It's gotten so bad that Bob Iger himself has reported involved himself and is trying to remove Kathleen Kennedy. Given all that corporate drama, I completely understand why Feige is tip toeing.

To be fair, toy sales are not Disney's problem. Disney Princess dolls and both Marvel and Star Wars action figures are licensed to Hasbro, which at their most recent renewal paid $80 million for a 2-year Marvel extension and $225 million for TFA-through-Ep9. Disney's bottom line is the same whether or not a single Hasbro Star Wars or Marvel toy for girls sells at retail.

 

[MasterCat]

I'm saying it's a weird time to bring "logic" into the picture. Hypothetically making the X-men mostly female is just as "illogical" as 5/6 main Avengers all being straight white men. Did you question that back in 2012?

Yeah, of course I questioned it. Not in an Affirmative Action way, but I was aware that the lineup was a silly kludge. Kevin Feige wanted to do the founding Avengers from the Silver Age (surprise! The Silver Age was sexist!) but Ant-Man and the Wasp were trapped in development hell.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

I don't follow your point with Thanos. At all.

I'm saying it's a weird time to bring "logic" into the picture. Hypothetically making the X-men mostly female is just as "illogical" as 5/6 main Avengers all being straight white men. Did you question that back in 2012?

No question but then only 6% of US Navy SEALs, 5 % of US Army Special Forces and 0.6% of USAF PJ's were Black The Marines refuse to divulge such information maybe because by their corporate culture all Marines are "special"

 

[Bayne]

Even if a hypothetical X-men film had 10 women out of 15 total characters, those 15 would still be a fraction of the probable hundreds if not thousands of mutants existing in the world. To look at that and say 'that ratio makes no sense' is completely ridiculous. The sample size is far too small to apply any statistical expectations whatsoever. There is absolutely no reason there should be a fifty fifty split.

And that's without even considering any possible extra causes that might make the representation of women go up naturally. For instance, if the movie included the stepford cuckoos, that would be three women (a fifth of the cast if there are 15 total) who were all certainly found at the same time because they're sisters.

 

[Big Bang]

To be fair, toy sales are not Disney's problem. Disney Princess dolls and both Marvel and Star Wars action figures are licensed to Hasbro, which at their most recent renewal paid $80 million for a 2-year Marvel extension and $225 million for TFA-through-Ep9. Disney's bottom line is the same whether or not a single Hasbro Star Wars or Marvel toy for girls sells at retail.

Quite the opposite really. If the toys don't sell, then the licensing fees are diminished. Whoever is producing those toys can point out the hit can be due to how a movie, tv show, etc. performs. One bad brand can cause analysts to question Disney marketing approach, and so on. It's a very slippery slope.

Those licensing fees very much do effect Disney's bottom line. The point is you want to see growth on as many levels as possible, and Consumer Products is a ginormous chunk of Disney's business model. Sales effect not only what is sold in stores, but also at Disney's parks. They are very much interrelated.

 

[MasterCat]

Interesting. I thought it wouldn't matter until it's time to renew a license, when obviously a burned licensee would hurt the bottom line.

 

[MasterCat]

On that note, I find it strange that Consumer Products doesn't bring the making of dolls and action figures in-house. $40 million a year for most Marvel toys seems like a real steal. And Disney owns a chain of 387 retail stores, so instead of making licensing deals with Hasbro and then buying wholesale from them, why not vertically integrate and then sell most of the toys to Wal-Mart, Target and Amazon?

 

[eplo]

You can't make the numbers work because you're basing your entire thought process on blind assumptions that are themselves biased towards male characters.

We have no evidence as to how many female heroes may or may not appear in the CM movies.

We have no evidence as to how many new heroes may appear in Guardians 3, nor as to when Guardians 4 will happen or who will star in it.

We have no evidence as to who will be the main focus of the Eternals or even if all the comic characters will appear.

We have no evidence as to whether the F4 or the X-men will be in phase 4 at all and we certainly have no evidence that the X-men will automatically feature a fifty fifty gender split.

We have no evidence that Nova or Moon Knight are definitely happening at all.

And we have no evidence yet about what other projects might be in the works or what new characters may be introduced in future Avengers films. That could easily include things like A-Force, Spider-Woman, Scarlet Witch, Elsa Bloodstone, Moondragon, America Chavez, Rogue, Storm, Spectrum, Thor (Jane Foster), She-Hulk, Tigra, Quasar, etc, etc.

I would bet good money that never happens

 

[Zarex]

Yes? There are a variety of genre conventions you can approach shrinking down to ride ants and meeting talking trees in, though.
Science fiction is not the same as surrealist humor, which is not the same as postmodernism.
Do you want to see Thanos arrested by the NYPD in Avengers 4?

Does it means we get the MCU debut of the Thanos Copter? THEN YES, I DO!

 

[fan4stic]

Kevin Feige: In a few years, my movie universe will be full of attractive actresses playing kickass characters.
Alpha males of the internet: BLASPHEMY. HOW DARE YOU.

Yes, we've officially reached the point where thousands of straight males are actively arguing against their own best interests. If that's not brainwashing then I don't know what it is.

I don't know how it's arguing against their own self interests.

What you said I think isn't what some are thinking about in regards to Feige's statement.

As long as the attractive actresses just play supporting characters with lots of male gaze shots it's alright.

I don't think that applies.

 

[Big Bang]

On that note, I find it strange that Consumer Products doesn't bring the making of dolls and action figures in-house. $40 million a year for most Marvel toys seems like a real steal. And Disney owns a chain of 387 retail stores, so instead of making licensing deals with Hasbro and then buying wholesale from them, why not vertically integrate and then sell most of the toys to Wal-Mart, Target and Amazon?

Pretty much the same reason tech firms do the same. Simply more cost effective to farm it out.

 

[Bayne]

I would bet good money that never happens

Never is a massive assumption, but there are obviously any number of things that won't happen in this series of movies. It doesn't change the fact that Marvel has plenty of excellent options for increasing the amount of female characters in these movies.

 

[Flash525]

What is wrong with appealing to feminists?

Feminists forever want to highlight the wrongs, rather than deal with them, otherwise they'd be equalists.

The loki sexism here, in IGN or YT or twitter is really starting to bug me. Feige knows he has a platform unprecedented in history, the biggest and more sustainable franchise of all time. It's only natural he wants to balance things up gender-wise. More marketing potential and demographics that are still un-tapped.

I just had too.

In any case, the inclusion (for me) of female-led heroes isn't a problem; I'm looking forward to Captain Marvel, and if we ever got a She-Hulk solo, or Squirrel Girl introduction, then fair doos - similarly if they'd introduce the likes of Wanda or Storm in a solo outing, I'd be all for it. My singular concern is a film like this Black Widow solo which just seems to be for the sake of it. Unless there's some serious supporting cast, it's probably one of the MCU films I wont be going to the cinema to watch!

 

[Flash525]

The potential downsides are that her original costume looked like this:

... so she'd most likely get a very dull costume makeover like Gamora's colorless motorcycle leathers, and is bisexual, which could be Flanderized into SJW lesbian.

Cara Delevingne is not a strong actress. I'd rather she be kept out of the MCU personally.

 

[DyfeddRex]

Oh, another I think has big potential is Moondragon. Not that she has any amazing stories I can recall issue # for, but she's Drax's daughter and got psychic powers from intense study of an alien religion. So she's A) basically a Jedi and B) someone Dave "Drax" Bautista has complained about not having around.
The potential downsides are that her original costume looked like this:

... so she'd most likely get a very dull costume makeover like Gamora's colorless motorcycle leathers, and is bisexual, which could be Flanderized into SJW lesbian.

Face it, my species is awful and will flanderize even a well portrayed female superhero, just to be their nasty selves.

Me, I'm all for female led superhero movies, as long as they are well written, extraordinarily cast, and not spoofs. Unless you do Squirrel Girl, 'cause she's nearly as good at spoofing the trope as DP.