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This is ridiculous. If I voted conservative 51% of the time, that doesn't make me a conservative by definition. A political identity is shaped by one's own core principles and values-- this is introductory-level political science. While you are right to a degree that independents often lie about being "true independents," you are wrong to assume that there are no independents whatsoever. There are voters out there who dissect the issues and actually make a choice based on policy positions and leadership traits versus that candidate's political affiliation.

I doubt that you have voted half and half all your life. You just created an unlikely scenario here. In most cases (unless somebody has a gun to your head) your vote is a reflection of your own beliefs and disposition. The only time I would expect to see somebody being 50/50 on his voting record is when it is either his second time voting or he decided to change parties (which is excusable). I don't think very many people vote the opposite way just to fool people. That would be ridiculous.

Also, there are more types of conservatism than the big bad evil conservatism you think every poster who disagrees with you embodies. There is fiscal conservatism, social conservatism, religious conservatism, libertarianism-- you are throwing the word "conservative" out there as if it is an automatic association with the Republican Party. It is not. There are conservative Democrats, most of whom are fiscal conservatives.

It is still conservatism by virtue of the fact that you still call it that.

Reading your posts over the past two pages has made me embarrassed of the liberal left.

Look, you can be embarrassed all you want. I am more interested in this country getting out of and staying out of a rut. There are plenty of intelligent folks out there who know better than you.

Sweet Jesus, you're still using this line?

The American automobile industry will die out regardless of whether or not we pour billions of dollars into their wallets, from the imaginary money reserves we seem to be dealing from these days. NO AMOUNT OF MONEY will be able to fix the CORE REASON why this industry is failing: Poor business strategies and an overall lack of innovation. It will take YEARS for American automobile manufacturers to reverse their practices and POSSIBLY (not definitely, not certainly, but POSSIBLY) rebound from the economic woes they are facing.

You still using yours I see. It is not going to happen. They will survive because enough people care, not like you.

I mean, when are we going to face reality? The American automobile industry is outdated and is likely to fail regardless of whether we bail them out or not.

This is nonsense. If that were the case, the they wouldn't have the market share that they do in North America. I wish people like you would stop throwing out baseless opinions and start looking at the facts.

For every innovative vehicle we introduce (the Chevy Volt, the Ford Fusion Hybrid, the Dodge Durango Hybrid which gets an ever-efficient 19 miles per gallon :whatever:), foreign manufactures have twice the innovative vehicles planned in the coming years. The American automobile industry will never be able to fix all of its problems over night. Meanwhile, they are going to experience even more economic woes in the years ahead, and what are they going to do then? Ask for more bailouts?

I only see one model each for BMW and Mercedes (the X3 and S-Class respectively) the must be keeping it very hush hush. It shouldn't be surprising that alternative fueled vehicle is the trend now since the volatile fluctuation of fuel prices hit. I is left to be seen who will come on top. My bet is that there is enough pie for everyone if the economy improves and the government is serious about energy independence. If the price of gas stays down, though, this will be a passing fad, just like it was some 30 years ago.

That's the reality of the situation: If we give them billions of dollars today, what's to stop them from asking for more bailout packages in the months and years ahead?

"Our sales projections are low, we need more money!"

"We didn't fix our business models in time, so we need more money!"

This is just an awful fiscal policy which is bound to backfire right in the government's face. And the fact that Obama seems to support this package shows me that his naivety and inexperience is already seeping into his presidency-- and he isn't even president yet.

Wonderful.

Oh for sure they will need more than $25 (or even $34) billion, but they don't necessarily need to get the difference from the feds. Once the financial markets stabilize (hopefully after the first quarter of next year) and the banks start lending again, the government can guarantee them loans through private sources (just like what was done with Chrysler back in 1979). As far as you dissing Obama, you should know better than that. He is being advised by some pretty brilliant people and if you have live as long as he has, you would know that bailouts work. What needs to be present is a plan to create jobs, shoring up the economy, and oversight of the Big 3 while they are under the bailout plan, which is what is being worked out now.
 
I think a few of those people were probably in not the best financial position to buy a home got a loan anyway (due to specific factors) and then couldn't keep up with the payments...

Well.... this is what happened and how it started.

The housing market was GREAT. you can buy a house, and the value of it would double in 5 years (depending on where you lived). To buy a $100,000, you have to pay about 10% usually as a down payment. So, a lot of these people couldn't afford a $10,000 payment. So what the banks did (which is borderline illegal) was charge the people 110,000 for a 100,000 home, and they would "say" that the people payed them $10,000.

So then a year goes by. That 100,000 home is now worth 120,000 dollars. So the people who owned it made a 20,000 profit. so they basically take that 20,000 and..... buy a new car or something. and they things like that every year (the right thing to do is refinance, but most people don't know this). Now, 10 years later, that 100,000 home is worth like $200,000 and they made a good profit and speant it. All of a sudden, the economy falls apart and the housing market busts. People lose their jobs and can't pay their payments. Even worse, that house that WAS worth 200,000? it is now worth 60,000. So now that person owe 200,000 on a house that is worth 60,000 and they have no job. So they can't sell the house. if they sell it, they still owe 140,000. That is IF they sell it. Right now noone is buying. So what people are basically doing is walking away from the houses and letting the banks take care of it. And the banks loaned 100,000 to people and now they own a 60,000 house. so the bank loses 40,000 as well.

That is the simple version of how this whole mess happened. The banks AND the people never thought the housing bubble would burst anytime soon and they never expected the people to lose their jobs and not make the payments.
 
Economics 101......"If you can't afford it, don't buy it". Economics 201......."If it is obvious they can't pay it back, don't loan it to them."
 
yup. people and banks just got used to the houses rising in value so they thought it would be easy sailing. but you don't give money to people who can't pay it back, even on a "Sure investment." and you never take out more money than you can pay off.
 
I doubt that you have voted half and half all your life. You just created an unlikely scenario here. In most cases (unless somebody has a gun to your head) your vote is a reflection of your own beliefs and disposition. The only time I would expect to see somebody being 50/50 on his voting record is when it is either his second time voting or he decided to change parties (which is excusable). I don't think very many people vote the opposite way just to fool people. That would be ridiculous.

Wow, you really don't understand the dynamics of politics in this country, do you?

Very few politicians are 100% liberal or 100% conservative. In fact, many candidates in both parties may be economically liberal and socially conservative, or economically conservative and socially liberal. Look at the voting records of every single Congressman. More specifically, look at Sen. Ben Nelson and Rep. Chris Shays. Both of them have political ideologies which go against the typical ideologies associated with liberals and conservatives. So how do you classify that?

Someone who has been voting for ten years in Nebraska could have a mixed record of voting for Ben Nelson and Chuck Hagel for the Senate. One's a Democrat and the other is a Republican, and both could be classified as moderates. Is that not an exact representation of independence? Is that not an exact representation of someone voting for candidates based on the ISSUES they support, versus political affiliation?

Same thing in Connecticut. If an independent voter voted for Chris Shays for Congress and Chris Dodd for Senate, how can that not be a sign of political independence? Once again, that voter would be voting on the issues and not on party or ideology.

It is rare that independents are true independents. However, approximately a quarter of independent voters are true independents who do not confine themselves to one party.

It is still conservatism by virtue of the fact that you still call it that.

Ugh. It is not conservatism which can be associated to one party, which is the type of attitude you have taken throughout this thread. Bill Clinton had many conservative traits. So do many Democrats in Congress.

Look, you can be embarrassed all you want. I am more interested in this country getting out of and staying out of a rut. There are plenty of intelligent folks out there who know better than you.

So, you are interested in getting the country out of a financial rut by pouring BILLIONS of dollars WE DON'T HAVE into an industry which is DYING? That is not fiscal responsibility at all, that is throwing all your chips on the table and blindly hoping for success.

You still using yours I see. It is not going to happen. They will survive because enough people care, not like you.

If Americans cared about the dying American automobile industry, then they wouldn't have put Toyota in a likely position to become America's number one automobile manufacturer years ago. But because Toyota actually provides vehicles which are FUEL EFFICIENT, RELIABLE and AFFORDABLE, people have given up on the American automobile industry altogether.

This is business. If American manufacturers cannot compete with foreign manufacturers in the automobile market, then oh well. Sorry all those jobs are going to be lost, but maybe the executives at these companies should have thought about that before relying on outdated business models while their competitors offered top-of-the-line products Americans WANT instead.

This is nonsense. If that were the case, the they wouldn't have the market share that they do in North America. I wish people like you would stop throwing out baseless opinions and start looking at the facts.


I only see one model each for BMW and Mercedes (the X3 and S-Class respectively) the must be keeping it very hush hush. It shouldn't be surprising that alternative fueled vehicle is the trend now since the volatile fluctuation of fuel prices hit. I is left to be seen who will come on top. My bet is that there is enough pie for everyone if the economy improves and the government is serious about energy independence. If the price of gas stays down, though, this will be a passing fad, just like it was some 30 years ago.

You also know that Mercedes-Benz allows its customers the option of using biofuels on most (if not all) of its vehicles, right?

And I'm not talking about the luxury market, though that's a good place to look considering Lexus has three popular hybrid vehicles in its fleet and has another on the way. No, I'm talking about the sedan/ SUV market. Look at Toyota-- they have three hybrid models available (the Prius, Camry and Highlander). Look at Honda. They have a hybrid, a car which runs on natural gas, and the first fuel cell vehicle to be released (though it is only limited in California and New York). Honda is also releasing three more hybrid vehicles in the next two years, two of which are projected to get more than 65 miles per gallon.

And hell-- let's even look beyond hybrid cars for a moment! Toyota, Honda, Mini, Suzuki, Kia, Hyundai, and Volkswagen have compact cars which get 30-40 miles per gallon. How many do GM have? ONE-- the Chevy Aveo, which accelerates poorly and has very little interior space when compared to the Honda FIT and Mini Cooper Clubman.

And look at this: The top 10 most fuel efficient vehicles, all of which get above 34 miles per gallon:

http://www.findgascards.com/blog/10-ten-fuel-efficient-vehicles-for-2008/

Notice anything interesting? Only ONE of those vehicles is American made!

Seriously, do not argue that American vehicles are more innovative or that the hybrid/ compact market is going to go down. The latter has been rising for YEARS and does not appear to be dropping even with the decrease in gas prices (looks like Americans learned their lesson when gas hit $4 a gallon over the summer, no?). The former is something which could have and should have been solved years ago, but American car companies were too busy focusing on how they could reap the most profits THEN than in the FUTURE.

That, my friend, is poor business.

Oh for sure they will need more than $25 (or even $34) billion, but they don't necessarily need to get the difference from the feds. Once the financial markets stabilize (hopefully after the first quarter of next year) and the banks start lending again, the government can guarantee them loans through private sources (just like what was done with Chrysler back in 1979). As far as you dissing Obama, you should know better than that. He is being advised by some pretty brilliant people and if you have live as long as he has, you would know that bailouts work. What needs to be present is a plan to create jobs, shoring up the economy, and oversight of the Big 3 while they are under the bailout plan, which is what is being worked out now.

What needs to be done is to eliminate these awful car companies and allow true innovators to take over the automobile market in America. If Ford, GM and Chrysler fall, I have no doubt in my mind that an intelligent businessman who understands the dynamics of this situation would start an automobile company which actually provides innovation, fuel efficiency, and affordability.
 
*hands popcorn to Marx and BL*
 
Wow, you really don't understand the dynamics of politics in this country, do you?

Very few politicians are 100% liberal or 100% conservative. In fact, many candidates in both parties may be economically liberal and socially conservative, or economically conservative and socially liberal. Look at the voting records of every single Congressman. More specifically, look at Sen. Ben Nelson and Rep. Chris Shays. Both of them have political ideologies which go against the typical ideologies associated with liberals and conservatives. So how do you classify that?

Someone who has been voting for ten years in Nebraska could have a mixed record of voting for Ben Nelson and Chuck Hagel for the Senate. One's a Democrat and the other is a Republican, and both could be classified as moderates. Is that not an exact representation of independence? Is that not an exact representation of someone voting for candidates based on the ISSUES they support, versus political affiliation?

Same thing in Connecticut. If an independent voter voted for Chris Shays for Congress and Chris Dodd for Senate, how can that not be a sign of political independence? Once again, that voter would be voting on the issues and not on party or ideology.

It is rare that independents are true independents. However, approximately a quarter of independent voters are true independents who do not confine themselves to one party.

:sleepy:

According to a recent Washington post study "The overwhelming majority of independents do favor one party or the other. And even more importantly, they are largely indistinguishable in terms of their core political beliefs and policy preferences from Americans who readily identify themselves as Republicans or Democrats." You know, you are so full of it and I wonder if you really know what you are saying sometimes. Next time check your facts out before you stick your foot in your mouth.

Ugh. It is not conservatism which can be associated to one party, which is the type of attitude you have taken throughout this thread. Bill Clinton had many conservative traits. So do many Democrats in Congress.

That doesn't matter. If it adopts the principles and policies of a conservative party, it is still conservatism by definition -- even if you are from the other party, and if you consistently do that all the time, they you are nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing.

So, you are interested in getting the country out of a financial rut by pouring BILLIONS of dollars WE DON'T HAVE into an industry which is DYING? That is not fiscal responsibility at all, that is throwing all your chips on the table and blindly hoping for success.

Yes, they do this all the time. Haven't you noticed that is why we have the Federal Reserve Bank?

If Americans cared about the dying American automobile industry, then they wouldn't have put Toyota in a likely position to become America's number one automobile manufacturer years ago. But because Toyota actually provides vehicles which are FUEL EFFICIENT, RELIABLE and AFFORDABLE, people have given up on the American automobile industry altogether.

Most of the cars purchased in America (52% of them according to Wards Automotive) are made by one of the Big 3 automakers (they actually make %66 of the cars produced in North America). To me that means that most Americans are buying American cars. They more than likely would care if they had the money to buy one, but the fact that the average salaries have not increased with the inflation rate, combined with the rise in unemployment and the volatile cost of fuel has hindered our ability to show that we do (individually). Toyota was lucky because they came to the market with their hybrid at the right time (GM brought theirs to market too early), but the Prius is not their top selling car (that honor would go the the Camry, which is not a hybrid).

This is business. If American manufacturers cannot compete with foreign manufacturers in the automobile market, then oh well. Sorry all those jobs are going to be lost, but maybe the executives at these companies should have thought about that before relying on outdated business models while their competitors offered top-of-the-line products Americans WANT instead.

I assume that you are implying that the government should not help out businesses. So we shouldn't have a Small Business Administration or a Department of Commerce either, because that is what they do. Look, other nations around the world are bailing out their businesses. I don't understand how you can be competitive without some government help. Don't be foolish.

You also know that Mercedes-Benz allows its customers the option of using biofuels on most (if not all) of its vehicles, right?

That's nice, but I don't know why I would want to do that. Even if I were to by one at $35K I would probably never see the savings since I would have sunk the money into the price of the car (plus the interest). That's not very smart. Besides, the way I read it a purchasable vehicle like that would not be for sale through Mecedes Benz until 2010. The current claim is that by 2015, their cars will be off petroleum. We will have to see about that.

And I'm not talking about the luxury market, though that's a good place to look considering Lexus has three popular hybrid vehicles in its fleet and has another on the way. No, I'm talking about the sedan/ SUV market. Look at Toyota-- they have three hybrid models available (the Prius, Camry and Highlander). Look at Honda. They have a hybrid, a car which runs on natural gas, and the first fuel cell vehicle to be released (though it is only limited in California and New York). Honda is also releasing three more hybrid vehicles in the next two years, two of which are projected to get more than 65 miles per gallon.

That's nice, so does GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

And hell-- let's even look beyond hybrid cars for a moment! Toyota, Honda, Mini, Suzuki, Kia, Hyundai, and Volkswagen have compact cars which get 30-40 miles per gallon. How many do GM have? ONE-- the Chevy Aveo, which accelerates poorly and has very little interior space when compared to the Honda FIT and Mini Cooper Clubman.

And look at this: The top 10 most fuel efficient vehicles, all of which get above 34 miles per gallon:

http://www.findgascards.com/blog/10-ten-fuel-efficient-vehicles-for-2008/

Notice anything interesting? Only ONE of those vehicles is American made!

You are so full of it. According to Hybridcar.com, "seventeen 2008 GM models – more than any other automaker – achieve EPA fuel economy of 30 miles per gallon or higher". The Chevy Malibu mid size sedan, for one, not only could achieve such fuel efficiency, but was named the North American Car of the Year to 2008.


Seriously, do not argue that American vehicles are more innovative or that the hybrid/ compact market is going to go down. The latter has been rising for YEARS and does not appear to be dropping even with the decrease in gas prices (looks like Americans learned their lesson when gas hit $4 a gallon over the summer, no?). The former is something which could have and should have been solved years ago, but American car companies were too busy focusing on how they could reap the most profits THEN than in the FUTURE.

I think I already did. As you will notice, the average price of gasoline in the U.S. is $1.69 as of today and has a trend that may take it under $1. We will have to see how long this will be the case as to whether or not this whole idea of alternative fuels and fuel efficient vehicles gets scrapped. The only thing that will keep this dream alive is permanent legislation. I certainly hope it happens, but then again, I still remember what occurred 30 years ago when we tried to do the same thing.


What needs to be done is to eliminate these awful car companies and allow true innovators to take over the automobile market in America. If Ford, GM and Chrysler fall, I have no doubt in my mind that an intelligent businessman who understands the dynamics of this situation would start an automobile company which actually provides innovation, fuel efficiency, and affordability.

 
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:sleepy:

According to a recent Washington post study "The overwhelming majority of independents do favor one party or the other. And even more importantly, they are largely indistinguishable in terms of their core political beliefs and policy preferences from Americans who readily identify themselves as Republicans or Democrats." You know, you are so full of it and I wonder if you really know what you are saying sometimes. Next time check your facts out before you stick your foot in your mouth.

Your pomposity is ever-so-exhilarating. I did check my facts before I "stuck my foot in my mouth." I am a political science major, so naturally I have taken a class on voting behavior. My information is from Marjorie Hershey's Party Politics in America, a well-respected book on the subject. I suggest you read it sometimes, maybe it could help broaden your horizons :up:

As for the rest of your post... I need to finish a final paper, so I will address it later.
 
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*gets a blanket and pillow* *shoves BL his drink*
 
Your pomposity is ever-so-exhilarating. I did check my facts before I "stuck my foot in my mouth." I am a political science major, so naturally I have taken a class on voting behavior. My information is from Marjorie Hershey's Party Politics in America, a well-respected book on the subject. I suggest you read it sometimes, maybe it could help broaden your horizons :up:

As for the rest of your post... I need to finish a final paper, so I will address it later.

That's nice and all, but you tried to change the argument to say that not everybody is 100% of anything. This is kind of trivial. My point is that it is highly unlikely that you would be straight down the middle and would tend to lean towards one side or another (and hence your alignment). I am sure Professor Hershey would agree (listen to what she says at the 4:20 mark of the audio).
 
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what if you don't pick either side on an issue and have a completly different one?

If someone doesn't like the republican's idea on healthcare and they don't like the democrats take on healthcare, but they have another view that is shared by other independents..... what alignment are they?
 
what if you don't pick either side on an issue and have a completly different one?

If someone doesn't like the republican's idea on healthcare and they don't like the democrats take on healthcare, but they have another view that is shared by other independents..... what alignment are they?

I think conservative and progressive (liberal) are very polarized positions. If you are too far to the right you eventually become facist, if you are too far to the left you eventually become socialist of communist (at least that was the way I was taught). In any case you should be able to tell based on the tendencies of the person.
 
you are getting them mixed up again.....

ok. democrat does NOT mean liberal.

Republican does NOT mean conservative

My question is not liberal vs conservative

my question is democrat vs republican.

2 VERY different arguments.

So, again. What is someone when they disagree with both parties?
 
you are getting them mixed up again.....

ok. democrat does NOT mean liberal.

Republican does NOT mean conservative

My question is not liberal vs conservative

my question is democrat vs republican.

2 VERY different arguments.

So, again. What is someone when they disagree with both parties?

This is true, but the political tendencies of the parties are towards liberal/progressive (Democrats) and conservative (Republicans). It would be very hard to find someone that is trully in the middle. You will either lean to one side or the other.
 
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This is true, but the political tendencies of the parties are towards liberal/progressive (Democrats) and conservative (Republican). It would be very hard to find someone that is trully in the middle. You will either lean to one side or the other.

so, people in the middle do exist... so when you made this comment about kel..:

When I hear people say that that just means that they are ashamed to say that they are conservatives. I am quite sure that more times than none you have voted that way and hence that is your true alignment (conservative). Saying you are an independan is just a cop out and just BS.

It was a bit premature and untrue, because she indeed could be an independent and not a cop out.

also, the way it usually goes, 25% are conservative, 25% are liberal, and 50% are in the middle. People don't realize that most fall in the middle. The reason for his is that

1) the middle 50% are least likely to vote
and
2) they are the least vocal.
 
That's nice and all, but you tried to change the argument to say that not everybody is 100% of anything. This is kind of trivial. My point is that it is highly unlikely that you would be straight down the middle and would tend to lean towards one side or another (and hence your alignment). I am sure Professor Hershey would agree (listen to what she says at the 4:20 mark of the audio).

Hershey obviously disagrees to an extent. But I have never argued that the majority of independent voters are independents. In fact, I repeated what Hershey said in her chapter "The Myth of the Independent Voter," that less than 25% of voters are "true independents" whose ideologies are at a perfect zero-- that is, they neither lean liberal nor conservative.

You argue that everyone leans one way or another, and I am telling you flat-out that you are wrong based on her statistical findings.
 
That doesn't matter. If it adopts the principles and policies of a conservative party, it is still conservatism by definition -- even if you are from the other party, and if you consistently do that all the time, they you are nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing.

That is completely wrong though.

If you are fiscally conservative and socially liberal on both extremes, then doesn't that make you centrist? And if you are centrist, doesn't that mean that your ideologies fall outside of the boundaries of the traditional "liberal" and "conservative" labels?

If this is the case, then how can you claim that a voter or politician is conservative when he or she has equally supported liberal policies on certain issues?

Moreover, people who register with a political party usually do so on the basis of one or two key issues they support. For example, I am a Democrat on the basis that I am very liberal on social issues. I am conservative on matters of defense and left-of-center on economic issues. The latter two, however, are not as important to me as social issues such as gay rights.

So, you could have a voter or politician who has joined the Democratic Party because he supports its stance on _____, but is equally conservative on issues such as ______. That makes that person more of a centrist than it makes them liberal or conservative.

Yes, they do this all the time. Haven't you noticed that is why we have the Federal Reserve Bank?

My jaw just unhinged itself and flopped on the floor because of this INSANE logic.

We have a multitrillion dollar national debt and a multibillion dollar deficit. Yet, you think we should pour MORE of this imaginary money, thereby expanding both the debt and the deficit, to bailout an industry WHICH MAY NOT SURVIVE as a result.

:huh:

Really? I'm sure you're not happy that we have spent trillions of imaginary dollars on the war in Iraq, yet you want to spent billions of imaginary dollars on saving an industry which is failing because it couldn't compete in a free-market economy.

That doesn't make sense to me.


Most of the cars purchased in America (52% of them according to Wards Automotive) are made by one of the Big 3 automakers (they actually make %66 of the cars produced in North America). To me that means that most Americans are buying American cars. They more than likely would care if they had the money to buy one, but the fact that the average salaries have not increased with the inflation rate, combined with the rise in unemployment and the volatile cost of fuel has hindered our ability to show that we do (individually). Toyota was lucky because they came to the market with their hybrid at the right time (GM brought theirs to market too early), but the Prius is not their top selling car (that honor would go the the Camry, which is not a hybrid).

I'm not arguing that hybrids are outselling economy cars, nor am I arguing that the majority of vehicles sold in this country are foreign. I am arguing that the foreign manufacturers have offered more innovation at an affordable price, hence why sales of foreign vehicles have been rising steadily over the past three years.

I assume that you are implying that the government should not help out businesses. So we shouldn't have a Small Business Administration or a Department of Commerce either, because that is what they do. Look, other nations around the world are bailing out their businesses. I don't understand how you can be competitive without some government help. Don't be foolish.

There is a difference between offering LOANS to small businesses and handing out BILLION DOLLAR BAILOUTS to corporations. Moreover, the Department of Commerce does not fund businesses in this country. It issues patents and sets industrial regulations and standards which apply to ALL businesses unless otherwise noted.

There is a difference between setting a competitive advantage/ setting standards for businesses and handing out buckets of imaginary money to those same businesses. There needs to be some government regulation of business to promote competition, but the line should be drawn when businesses which fail as a result of their own incompetence are being handed billions of dollars to pay for a parachute made of lead.

That's nice, but I don't know why I would want to do that. Even if I were to by one at $35K I would probably never see the savings since I would have sunk the money into the price of the car (plus the interest). That's not very smart. Besides, the way I read it a purchasable vehicle like that would not be for sale through Mecedes Benz until 2010. The current claim is that by 2015, their cars will be off petroleum. We will have to see about that.

But again-- this is the LUXURY market, which is a specialized market aimed at upper-middle class to wealthy individuals, not middle class families. Most Americans could care less what Mercedes-Benz offers due to its niche market.

That's nice, so does GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

My. GOD.

The point seems to have flown over your head completely.

Do some research on your own, where you will find that all of the companies I listed have more hybrid models available en masse, with better technologies, at lower prices than the ones offered by "The Big Three."

You are so full of it. According to Hybridcar.com, "seventeen 2008 GM models – more than any other automaker – achieve EPA fuel economy of 30 miles per gallon or higher". The Chevy Malibu mid size sedan, for one, not only could achieve such fuel efficiency, but was named the North American Car of the Year to 2008.

Sigh.

And if you read the information I provided you with, you would have seen that all ten of those models had average fuel economies of 34 MPG or more. GM may have more vehicles with fuel economies of 30 MPG or more, but they only have ONE vehicle which gets over 34 MPG-- and it is a downright awful vehicle which only proves that the company is half-assing its efforts when compared to auto companies such as Toyota or Honda.


I think I already did. As you will notice, the average price of gasoline in the U.S. is $1.69 as of today and has a trend that may take it under $1. We will have to see how long this will be the case as to whether or not this whole idea of alternative fuels and fuel efficient vehicles gets scrapped. The only thing that will keep this dream alive is permanent legislation. I certainly hope it happens, but then again, I still remember what occurred 30 years ago when we tried to do the same thing.

The idea of alternative fuels and fuel efficiency will not be scrapped, because Americans are buying hybrids and compacts even with the price of gas dwindling. That's what $4 a gallon gas and an economic recession does to buyers-- it makes them realize that they need to cut back on expenses, and buying high-quality, fuel-efficient vehicles is the best way to do this.




I doubt Bruce Wayne needed $25 billion dollars from the federal government to pick himself up, though. :o
 
Yeah well it looks like our good friends in the house, sarcasm, are going to give more than planned for the auto bailout. The problem isn't in the auto industry, the problem is in the credit system. You can give GM all the money you want but if the average person can't get an auto loan then GM still won't sell ****. I also think that every CEO or board member making over 250 thousand or so should get a price cut in their salary comparable to the percentage lost in their stocks. As their company slowly builds back up, then increase their salary comparable with the stocks based on a percentage basis. I also think unions have ruined a part of the auto industry as their tenured employees have been opted out so that people will start new for a lot less all the while union fat cats are rich off of membership dues. Unions IMO are useless as we now have labor laws and will once again see an increase in minimum wage under the Obama administration.

All of that coupled with the inability to invest in alternative fuel and efficient vehicles was their biggest loss when oil hit 150 a barrel...but the signs of that were very apparent from a long ways away:o This country went through an oil crisis in the 70s but I guess didn't learn from it in the auto sector. The oil speculators need to be shot:o
 
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Well.... this is what happened and how it started.

The housing market was GREAT. you can buy a house, and the value of it would double in 5 years (depending on where you lived). To buy a $100,000, you have to pay about 10% usually as a down payment. So, a lot of these people couldn't afford a $10,000 payment. So what the banks did (which is borderline illegal) was charge the people 110,000 for a 100,000 home, and they would "say" that the people payed them $10,000.

So then a year goes by. That 100,000 home is now worth 120,000 dollars. So the people who owned it made a 20,000 profit. so they basically take that 20,000 and..... buy a new car or something. and they things like that every year (the right thing to do is refinance, but most people don't know this). Now, 10 years later, that 100,000 home is worth like $200,000 and they made a good profit and speant it. All of a sudden, the economy falls apart and the housing market busts. People lose their jobs and can't pay their payments. Even worse, that house that WAS worth 200,000? it is now worth 60,000. So now that person owe 200,000 on a house that is worth 60,000 and they have no job. So they can't sell the house. if they sell it, they still owe 140,000. That is IF they sell it. Right now noone is buying. So what people are basically doing is walking away from the houses and letting the banks take care of it. And the banks loaned 100,000 to people and now they own a 60,000 house. so the bank loses 40,000 as well.

That is the simple version of how this whole mess happened. The banks AND the people never thought the housing bubble would burst anytime soon and they never expected the people to lose their jobs and not make the payments.

Well, a lot of it was also people going to the banks who were telling them they could afford $200,000 loans and the people not taking into account interest, taxes, and future trends in the job and the housing market before they bought a house at the high end of their credit line. These people were determined to put themselves into debt and the banks figured they'd go somewhere else to get the money either way, so they let them out of there with it and hoped for the best. Well, it backfired on both of them.

People were reacting without any forethought in terms of taxes and the market and bought that 200,000 house when they should have been looking at a 150,000 house. We made 40,000 on our house because we bought a low tax area starter home for 55,000 12 years ago. We knew no matter what the market did it was a safe buy because low tax areas are always viable for buyers precisely because they have low taxes. Our house sold in 2 days. We bought a 150,000 house despite the bank approving us for about 215,000 because that amount after taxes and interest would've netted us with an almost 300,000 payment, which we couldn't have afforded. That's what happened to a lot of people. They didn't plan ahead or think about the taxes of the rich area they were moving to and bought a house that ballooned out their reach once the taxes and interest settled in.
 
that is pretty much what happened. But just because some people "say" they can afford a 200,000 house, doesn't mean the banks believe them. The banks knew what they could afford. Especially when most of these people couldn't make the down payment. If you loan a lot of money to someone, and they can't even make the down payment, they probably can't afford anything. The only reason the banks thought these people could afford it is because they knew the value would keep going up and it would keep making money. none of them, the banks or the people, thought that the housing bubble would burst and the value would diminsh.
 
UAW President Ron Gettelfinger might be in the running for the auto czar position
Detroit Democrat John Conyers -- who chairs the U.S. House Judiciary Committee -- proposed on Tuesday the creation of a so-called auto czar to sit on President-elect Barack Obama's cabinet.

"If the Congress and auto industry strike a grand bargain aimed at improving the industry's efficiency and innovative capacity, America's public and private sectors will have to work together on a variety of fronts," Conyers said in calling for an auto czar.

His pick for the job? UAW President Ron Gettelfinger, who Conyers praised as having "an uncanny understanding of the technical operation of the auto industry, as well as the leadership skills needed to bring competing interests together."
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:lmao: lets just hope it is his "theoretical choice" or something :funny:

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