Germans. Still Evil?

[Optimus_Prime_]

I guess that is why he ordered Martha to free them in his will. Oh wait...Yeah he was a slave owner, but he didn't give them to Martha who apparently refused to free her own slaves. And all the modern research I've come across indicates he was decent to his slaves, and I mean credible sources not romanticized public school history books.

He did have a formidable temper they say, but he was a quite and reserved man. It took a lot to get him to show it.

Well at least as far as archeological records are concerned the order of the slave quarters and the order in which they were fed indicates he didn't see them as very high on the totem pole. In fact they were dead last. Whether he beat them regularly, no I don't think he did. A lot of slave owners were "kind" to their slaves, but that was more out of economic interest. Just like I assume people don't regularly beat their cars with crowbars when it doesn't work properly.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Yeah. I hate when people try to play the "number of victims" game. If that's the case at the time of World War II Hitler turns into the nicest of the bunch. Stalin eclipsed his number several times over.

I think there's a difference between systematic genocide/ethnic cleansing and collateral damage.

One is accidental and the other is very deliberate, methodical mass killing.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I think there's a difference between systematic genocide/ethnic cleansing and collateral damage.

I would imagine this matters very little to victims.

One is accidental and the other is very deliberate, methodical mass killing.

Collateral damage is not accidental. It's known before attacks if there will be collateral damage or not, that's why it's factored into pre-war casualty projections.

We do both though.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

So if Obama sends all whites to concentration camps and gasses them all to death, that's just as bad as a few drone strikes that target terrorist but have civilain casualties.

There's no difference?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

So if Obama sends all whites to concentration camps and wipes them all out that's just as bad as a few drone strikes that target terrorist but have civilain casualties.

There's no difference?

Maybe to me personally.

 

[bullets]

Hitler won the hearts and minds of the people when he rose to power. I used to date a German girl and her dad idolized Hitler. It reminds me of racism in this country. You still see some of it from older generations , but the younger people are less likely to carry that hatred. It's a different country and a different time now so I don't think it's fair to call them evil.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Hitler won the hearts and minds of the people when he rose to power. I used to date a German girl and her dad idolized Hitler. It reminds me of racism in this country. You still see some of it from older generations , but the younger people are less likely to carry that hatred. It's a different country and a different time now so I don't think it's fair to call them evil.

I definitely agree with this. It reminds me a lot of prior generations opinions of blacks in this country.

 

[Hobgoblin]

So we all agree that it is unfair to judge an entire nation and it's people as evil because of its history. Then why do we keep the image of Germans as Nazis? Do we need to change this perception and how?

Is moving on the same as forgetting?

 

[Marvolo]

Well at least as far as archeological records are concerned the order of the slave quarters and the order in which they were fed indicates he didn't see them as very high on the totem pole. In fact they were dead last. Whether he beat them regularly, no I don't think he did. A lot of slave owners were "kind" to their slaves, but that was more out of economic interest. Just like I assume people don't regularly beat their cars with crowbars when it doesn't work properly.

Wellllll lol

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

So we all agree that it is unfair to judge an entire nation and it's people as evil because of its history. Then why do we keep the image of Germans as Nazis? Do we need to change this perception and how?

Is moving on the same as forgetting?

Well Nazis have been immortalized as the ulimate evil and enemy the United States defeated. America will continue to use the Nazi as a symbol of why America has moral supremacy.

The problem is we've been using that card for a long time and it's starting to lose its immaculate glimmer.

But I don't think most Americans equate modern Germany with the Nazi Party anyway. At least I hope.

 

[Marvolo]

Well Nazis have been immortalized as the ulimate evil and enemy the United States defeated. America will continue to use the Nazi as a symbol of why America has moral supremacy.

The problem is we've been using that card for a long time and it's starting to lose its immaculate glimmer.

But I don't think most Americans equate modern Germany with the Nazi Party anyway. At least I hope.

The Nazi's really are a great personification of evil. They are also interesting to look at from a social evolution standpoint. Killing your own kind is frowned upon in most social structures because it is counter productive to the survival of the group. Most rogue groups are dealt with in a species. So here we have this large rogue group and a large part of our species stood up and smacked it the **** down. It was a big moment of cooperation for our species. Regardless of the reasons and self-interests that got different parties into the war, the fact we as a collective decided to cooperate and bring down this plague on our species was an amazing feat. Especially on that scale. Its hard to let go something like that.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

The Nazi's really are a great personification of evil. They are also interesting to look at from a social evolution standpoint. Killing your own kind is frowned upon in most social structures because it is counter productive to the survival of the group. Most rogue groups are dealt with in a species. So here we have this large rogue group and a large part of our species stood up and smacked it the **** down. It was a big moment of cooperation for our species. Regardless of the reasons and self-interests that got different parties into the war, the fact we as a collective decided to cooperate and bring down this plague on our species was an amazing feat. Especially on that scale. Its hard to let go something like that.

I think the reason it pervades is the scope. Even WWI was somewhat confined, and the wars before then, like the Civil War, while brutal, didn't touch all corners of the globe like World War II. It wasn't just the first time nations joined forces, it was the first time a global conflict broke out that quite literally involved everyone. It's hard to find anyone, even today, who isn't only one or two degrees separate from someone who was directly involved.

Plus beating the Nazis created two very distinct superpowers, who basically held all the cards in terms of where the world would go from henceforth.

 

[Marvolo]

I think the reason it pervades is the scope. Even WWI was somewhat confined, and the wars before then, like the Civil War, while brutal, didn't touch all corners of the globe like World War II. It wasn't just the first time nations joined forces, it was the first time a global conflict broke out that quite literally involved everyone. It's hard to find anyone, even today, who isn't only one or two degrees separate from someone who was directly involved.

Plus beating the Nazis created two very distinct superpowers, who basically held all the cards in terms of where the world would go from henceforth.

It was quite the achievement. I just hope we an do it again if we need too.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

What proof do you have that Lincoln was motivated by greed?

The Civil War didn't end slavery, it ended up being the bargaining chip that ended slavery in any state that wanted to return to the Union. That's what the EP is, but slavery still persisted in border states like Maryland that stood by the Union and were thus exempt. I suppose Lincoln could've tried to free the slaves regardless of a war; since I do realize he hated slavery. Then again Adams and Jefferson were none too fond of it either, and they did jacksquit about it. The states where slavery persisted, Maryland, I mentioned, all freed the slaves through their own state laws later on.

and if you want to break down a nation to weaker, individual parts you need a better reason than "we want to own human beings!".

You really need to read more American history if you think this is what drove the South to secede. Slavery may have certainly been the hot button issue of the day, but their grievances with the North were far more political in nature.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

It was quite the achievement. I just hope we an do it again if we need too.

It was. For all my cultural objectivist stuff here, what we can be sure of is Germany and the Axis powers were damn strong, and there were a lot of close calls that could've seriously turned the tide in that war against the Allied Powers.

 

[Thundercrack85]

So we all agree that it is unfair to judge an entire nation and it's people as evil because of its history. Then why do we keep the image of Germans as Nazis? Do we need to change this perception and how?

Is moving on the same as forgetting?

I believe we keep it mostly because the Nazis were exceptionally evil (I mean, they made all of Europe seriously reevaluate racism), because it's a fairly recent event (lot of their victims are still alive), and because Germany hasn't really done much since.

People still identify Russians with Communism. Takes a while for perceptions to change.

 

[Schlosser85]

Well then so is American between the years of 2004-present. We've killed more civilians than Hitler in that time period, mostly under one man, but Obama is doing his fair share as well.

Because collateral damage in warfare is the same as systematically rounding up every Iraqi man, woman, and child and shoving them into gas chambers.

This is among the more dim-witted (or disingenuous) false equivalences I've read.

 

[Marvolo]

Because collateral damage in warfare is the same as systematically rounding up every Iraqi man, woman, and child and shoving them into gas chambers.

This is among the more dim-witted (or disingenuous) false equivalences I've read.

Don't forget moving them to ghetto's and then rounding them up for death camps and shooting those who resist.

 

[Schlosser85]

Ripping out their gold teeth to melt it down....throwing babies into ovens....putting them in decompression chambers....putting them in freezing water and seeing how long they took to freeze to death...

 

[Thundercrack85]

I should also ask, what exactly are people expecting?

Before Germans were stereotyped as Nazis, they were Prussians and Huns. And before that Goths and Barbarians. Most of the world didn't exactly have warm fuzzy feelings towards Germans (and the Germans liked it that way, that was their thing).

Now the French have had it much worse in the stereotypes department. The Germans went from scary, ruthless killers, to racist, genocidal ruthless killers thanks to World War II. The French went from brave romantics to "cheese eating surrender monkeys". The Germans will live down World War II before the French.

 

[Marvolo]

Ripping out their gold teeth to melt it down....throwing babies into ovens....putting them in decompression chambers....putting them in freezing water and seeing how long they took to freeze to death...

Removing the legs and arms and sowing the arms where the legs go and the legs where the arms go...using skin to make lampshades and book covers...

 

[Schlosser85]

Germany has virtually gone from fanatically militaristic to fanatically pacifistic.

IMO at times it bends too far over backwards in the other direction...but I understand their self-identity issues.

 

[Marvolo]

Being **** on after world war 1, being run by a party that is the personification of evil, and then being split down the middle by communist russia. Germany had a rough century. Its a wonder the whole country hasn't suffered a collective mental breakdown.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, statistically speaking, Germany is the most likely country to start World War III. Which was always the joke, with the war starting in Berlin during the Cold War.

 

[Schlosser85]

Eh, Germany's pretty far down the list of countries likely to start wars in the present day.