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Hollywood Needs To Fail Again

I'm sorry, but i just don't find Kosinski's Filmmaking very inteligent, just like with Zack Snyder, i think he tries to put more meaning in his movies but isn't very successful at that. A single interesting theme doesn't make up for a structure made of other science fiction films, yeah, almost every science fiction story takes from another, but all the major cliches are here, which makes it more obvious, you've got the dreaming guy who becomes a hero, you've got the older guy who shows him the truth of the world, you've got clones, a known landmark from our world destroyed and visible all the time to show how far things have gone, etc.

As before, Let me know of three or four science fiction movie from the past twenty five years that you consider original.

As for Kosinski's filmmaking being "very intelligent", that depends on your scale. More intelligent than whom?

As for Cap 2, you've got the yearning for a halcyon age of better values, you've got the 90 year-old guy who shows everyone the truth of the world, you've got engineered super-soldiers, and senators who are symbols of respect and authority in our world being corrupted to show how far Hydra has infiltrated everything ... :-)
 
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It's all about presentation, that's why i mentioned Oblivion pretty much using all the cliches in the book, Cap was also able to be exciting and gave good hero dynamics, it obviously had some cliches, i'm not denying that, but just like most good movies, it's all about what experience you can offer in order to make those cliches seem less obvious.
 
Whether you like the films or not, it is a fact that David O. Russell's last three films are adult dramas made in the studio system with reasonable budgets. That's what he was asking.

This. Are we discussing the existence of this type of film, or the quality of individual films? Something's not as good as Shawshank Redemption? No ****. Only a handful of films EVER are.

I feel like this discussion is kind of like how every generation thinks that the next generation's music sucks.
 
Yeah, the film you end up seeing is definitely original. It's way more than just God telling a dude to build an ark for some flood.

I liked Noah despite its many flaws, but it kind of was like a biblical epic from the 1950s. It is based on a paper thin story (Noah's part in Genesis would barely fill a short film), and the director then made up a bunch of stuff based loosely on Hebrew stories not in the Bible/Torah and then gave it a lot of his own interests: in this case evolution, an eye on science, and a rather dark view of mankind as being a pestilence on the world and "creation." Is that any different, really, from Cecil B. DeMille having Noah romance the Egyptian princess to add conflict to The Ten Commandments?

With that said, Noah is still a daring movie, because on a huge budget it still had artistic moments of sheer Aronofsky brilliance/madness, such as the visualization of how the world was made in Noah's voiceover/montage. Also, the look of "early Creation" was hypnotic and wondrous. And few filmmakers would take such a dark view on humanity in a budget that big.
 
American Hustle, The Wolf Of Wall Street, Enough Said, Her, Mud, Dallas Buyers Club, Aint Them Bodies Saints, All Is Lost, Inside Llewyen Davis, Nebraska, and 12 Years A Slave fit that category. That's eleven from last year that I remember.

Other than Hustle and Wall Street, which were made by two established filmmakers with Oscar nominations/wins (whose careers go back decades), none of those movies were mid-budgeted or made in the studio system. All of them cost under $25 million, and all of them cost under $20 million save for 12 Years a Slave. They were made in a dying independent market where studios saw their quality and/or marketability and scooped them up for distribution.

Good luck getting a $30 million drama made by Hollywood in the studio system if you don't already have "Two Time Academy Award" before your name. It is not the same as what was happening in the 1990s, much less the 1970s. And it is a shame.
 
noone but Scorsese could made Wolf of Wall Street how he did. not even Spielberg and Cameron. you all know all the nudity,editing and extreme scenes are 100% Scorsese. its an obvious N17 movie that got a R rating. :)
 
American Hustle, The Wolf Of Wall Street, Enough Said, Her, Mud, Dallas Buyers Club, Aint Them Bodies Saints, All Is Lost, Inside Llewyen Davis, Nebraska, and 12 Years A Slave fit that category. That's eleven from last year that I remember.

Other than Wolf of Wall St and Enough said, those movies are so depressing and not ones I'd want to re-watch on a regular basis. The two I listed (Field of Dreams and Shawshank) are movies I could flip by on cable on a Sunday afternoon, and drop whatever is I'm doing to re-watch them.


Other than Hustle and Wall Street, which were made by two established filmmakers with Oscar nominations/wins (whose careers go back decades), none of those movies were mid-budgeted or made in the studio system. All of them cost under $25 million, and all of them cost under $20 million save for 12 Years a Slave. They were made in a dying independent market where studios saw their quality and/or marketability and scooped them up for distribution.

Good luck getting a $30 million drama made by Hollywood in the studio system if you don't already have "Two Time Academy Award" before your name. It is not the same as what was happening in the 1990s, much less the 1970s. And it is a shame.

This is what I meant. Yes, there will always be smaller independent movies. But major studios don't seem to want to waste time with a mid-budget movie. There was Draft Day with Costner a few weeks ago, and that tanked. So I can see why they are shying away.
 
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Other than Hustle and Wall Street, which were made by two established filmmakers with Oscar nominations/wins (whose careers go back decades), none of those movies were mid-budgeted or made in the studio system. All of them cost under $25 million, and all of them cost under $20 million save for 12 Years a Slave. They were made in a dying independent market where studios saw their quality and/or marketability and scooped them up for distribution.

Good luck getting a $30 million drama made by Hollywood in the studio system if you don't already have "Two Time Academy Award" before your name. It is not the same as what was happening in the 1990s, much less the 1970s. And it is a shame.

I guess I just don't get the Chicken Little attitude about it. Hollywood has been like this since Heaven's Gate failed. Heaven's Gate killed the decent budget auteur films that drove 70's cinema. History has re-written the 1990's independent movement as a fairy-tale that it wasn't. Pulp Fiction, for instance, was made with a non-union crew, and couldn't pay any of the actors more than $20,000 a week. It's total budget was 8.5 million dollars(Around $13 Million now). Tarantino wasn't in a much easier situation than current indie filmmakers. Boogie Nights was made for 15 Million, which rounds out to about 22 million dollars now, which is about the budget of The Master, so Paul Thomas Anderson is having just as hard of a time getting films made now as he did then. Fargo was made for 7 million(about 10 million now). The 1990's weren't any better for the independent artist as they are now. Hell, the 1970's weren't perfect either. Adjusted for inflation, Taxi Driver's budget is 6 million dollars. One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest is 13 Million. Annie Hall is 15 Million.

For what it's worth, adjusted for inflation, Field Of Dreams cost about 28 million dollars to make, which is less than four of the Best Picture nominees this year and six of the Best Picture nominees last year. Shawshank, adjusted for inflation, cost around 39 Million Dollars to make, which is cheaper than Moneyball, Argo, War Horse, Django Unchained, Les Miserables, Lincoln, Zero Dark Thirty, American Hustle, Captain Phillips, and The Social Network to just name a few films from the past four years.

We also have to factor in that the costs of filmmaking have gone down, due to new technology. Say you are doing an adult drama. You could shoot on a Red Epic which would be about $5000 a week, use natural lighting or even a few cheap $200 soft boxes( or even a disco ball on a boom to light) plus your sound equipment, limited crew and you got all the below the line stuff covered for a three week shoot under 30 thousand dollars. If anything, as Martin Scorsese himself said, this should give us hope. More great films can be made because directors are getting the resources cheaper to where they don't have to appeal to the suits any longer.

Overall, yes I agree over-budgeting is a big problem and they should be willing to put a bit more money into adult dramas and such. However, this isn't a new problem, it started in 1980 after Heaven's Gate and hasn't really had any progress since then. Also, it's certainly not the end of art films or anything like that, especially with new technology, the chances of more art films is increasing.


Other than Wolf of Wall St and Enough said, those movies are so depressing and not ones I'd want to re-watch on a regular basis. The two I listed (Field of Dreams and Shawshank) are movies I could flip by on cable on a Sunday afternoon, and drop whatever is I'm doing to re-watch them.

Well that's just opinion based. Personally, I'd watch Inside Lleywen Davis on repeat before having to sit through Field of Dreams again.
 
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Well that's just opinion based. Personally, I'd watch Inside Lleywen Davis on repeat before having to sit through Field of Dreams again.

Well la-di-da look who's bragging about not having daddy issues! He was too busy to play catch alright!
 
What I'd like is more films like Gravity. Gravity is not quite blockbuster, not quite dramatic film, it lies in a place in between. What wrong with getting more adult blockbusters? Is it just directors aren't interested perhaps?
 
Well la-di-da look who's bragging about not having daddy issues! He was too busy to play catch alright!
:pal: To be fair, I really just dislike Kevin Kosner.

What I'd like is more films like Gravity. Gravity is not quite blockbuster, not quite dramatic film, it lies in a place in between. What wrong with getting more adult blockbusters? Is it just directors aren't interested perhaps?

I certainly agree. Gravity and Children of Men...we need more of those types of films.
 
You guys should watch Rush.

One if thebest English language movies of 2013, budget under 50 million.
 
Rush Lauda Hunt movie? that was under 50?

holly s..
 
90 million gross on 38 million dollar budget.

Btw, Nikki Lauda lives the movie :-)
 
Been wanting to watch Rush for a while, heard was good, but not as much as most of the Oscar Nominated movies.
 
Prisoners and 42 are both in that $30 to $50 million budgeted range. Blue Jasmine is probably worth mentioning as well. None of them were released during the traditional Oscar period either. All of them seemed to do well at the box office as well. Last year was the first time in a while that I think the traditional dramas seemed to mount something of a comeback at the box office.

That said, I do think a lot of the traditional dramas have disappeared to television. Heck, Behind the Candelabra had all the ingredients of a motion picture including auteur director and big name stars. Mad Men and Breaking Bad certainly were playing in the traditional drama mode as well. That competition certainly seems to have something to do with the box office success of the genre.
 
You guys should watch Rush.

One if thebest English language movies of 2013, budget under 50 million.

I'm hearing great things about it, but racecar movies just aren't my thing...do you think I'll still enjoy it?
 
I'm hearing great things about it, but racecar movies just aren't my thing...do you think I'll still enjoy it?

The movie is really about the rivalry between Lauda and Hunt. They could make a movie like this about Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson or Sampras vs Agassi.
 
This is what I meant. Yes, there will always be smaller independent movies. But major studios don't seem to want to waste time with a mid-budget movie. There was Draft Day with Costner a few weeks ago, and that tanked. So I can see why they are shying away.

If small mid-budget movies tank at theaters, than really, Hollywood *should* shy away from them. The problem, from the sound of it, is less that they inappropriately shun mid-budget stuff, and more that they are too quick to throw money away on bad blockbuster bets.
 
if hollywood was smart they would understand that investing 30-50 millions into small movies is good for the actors. studios can build up an actor or actress through small drama movies and then insert them into blockbuster where they can use the small movie to promote the new big movie. ''oscar nominated,oscar winner,.....''

movie making is a business and i think that some studios are thinking only about quick profit. not a fan of what Marvel is doing in term or quality storytelling ( making the best movie possible). but dear lord they are aproaching this like a normal product in a big business. they are literally creating a brand. and thats perfect for the audience that they need for the long run. people who will watch their movies no matter if they are good or bad. they are now fans of the brand Marvel Studios. on the surface it looks like they just wanted something unique with a shared universe. BS. this is all about creating a ''brand''.

20 years ago you had fans of actors,directors or character/universe. today Disney is trying to make you love a studio. its genius.
 
Disney has been doing that since day one. They do branding better than anyone in the world. I'm going to Disney World for about a week in September. Once I step off the plane and take the Magic Express to my Disney resort, I will not step off of Disney property for that entire week, and that is because I want everything I do to be Disney-based, from the hotel, the the restaurants, to anything else.
 
True, however by now, their brand isn't as strong as before, which is why Pirates of the Caribbean was an unexpected success and they're still facing major bombs like John Carter and The Lone Ranger.

The Disney brand has also created an effect where many people associate them with "childish" entertainment and may not watch them due to that.
 
John Carter was not like other disney products, its like coca cola selling sweaters, nobody cares.

They should start making more animated movies like little mermaid and lion king.
 
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Well, it still did better than The Lone Ranger, something very similar to Pirates of the Caribbean. In fact, when Pirates appeared didn't people also talk about how it didn't seem like it was from Disney? In my opinion all these franchises look like something coming from Disney, as they feature their usual creativity and family adventures, and since around 2006 i also expect great visuals from them. I think John Carter worked as all of those things.
 

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