Homophobia in criticism of BF and B&R

[StylishHokie21]

How does a zipper on the butt crack help him get into the costume? Does he slip the butt cheeks over his head and shoulders like a shirt? That's a very silly mental image.

Yeah...how does that work? I don't think I want to know.

 

[Mr. Socko]

How does a zipper on the butt crack help him get into the costume? Does he slip the butt cheeks over his head and shoulders like a shirt? That's a very silly mental image.

You are getting ridiculous. We all know exactly what you're hinting at and I highly doubt that was Schumacher's intent.

But mostly, it's NOT a zipper, it's just a part of the costume, it isn't suppose to serve any kind function. I'll gladly post a picture if you'd like.

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

Please dont.

 

[RobC]

Socko saves the day.

You're just in this thread to either annoy people with your nonsense, or to carry on some subtly veiled hate.

Either way, it's lame and you should give it a rest.

 

[Surge38]

First off, I'll state for the record, that the kind of arguments and statements made by the poster seem to scream "These are my points, and if you argue them you'll be labeled a homophobe" and really do little to advance his argument. But I'll put what I percieve to be the poster's intentions aside, and give a legitimate answer.

Watch the independant film "The Celluloid Closet." For those not familiar, it is a documentry about homosexuality in hollywood, and how gay subtext has been quietly infused in movies throughout hollywoods history by gay and straight filmmakers alike. An example is Sparticus...the character played by Charlton Heston was gay....only they never told Heston this. They directed his perfomance to reflect the character's sexuality, without Heston ever knowing that was the intention. This came straight from the directors mouth, and is not the only example.

Now honestly...if this kind of practice is common in hollywood (and I'm not commending or condemming the practice), and Batman and Robin has a HISTORY of being associated with gay overtones (most notable by Dr. Fredric Wertham in 1954's "Seduction of the Innocent"), and the movie begins with gratuitous "butt shots" of batman and Robin suiting up, and the director is openly gay, how can you not expect people to get a "gay vibe" from the movie? No one is bashing homosexuality (at least I'm not) but you can't reasonably dismiss anyone who gets that feeling as a gay-basher.

As for the argument about "no one caring ibout gratuitous boob shots.." remember your target audience. This is a BAMTAN movie. If George Clooney was in the sequel to "Bridges of Madison County", or another movie clearly targeted at a female audience, and you focused on Clooney's butt, it would fit and no one would scream "gay." If they then focused on a girl's breasts in the same movie, that would easily be interprited as a "lesbian overtone" Batman is overwelmingly targeted to male audiences...a male butt shot is out of place...unless your attempting a bit of homo-erotic tonage.

 

[Ion Kenshin]

why do people see homo-eroticism or inuendo in movies as a bad thing.....gay people go to see these movies and i dont think they mind a little homo eroticism in movies ....i mean come on its guys with great bodies in skin tight costumes ....what gay guy wouldnt wanna see that....i know im not complaining

 

[RobC]

First off, I'll state for the record, that the kind of arguments and statements made by the poster seem to scream "These are my points, and if you argue them you'll be labeled a homophobe" and really do little to advance his argument. But I'll put what I percieve to be the poster's intentions aside, and give a legitimate answer.

Watch the independant film "The Celluloid Closet." For those not familiar, it is a documentry about homosexuality in hollywood, and how gay subtext has been quietly infused in movies throughout hollywoods history by gay and straight filmmakers alike. An example is Sparticus...the character played by Charlton Heston was gay....only they never told Heston this. They directed his perfomance to reflect the character's sexuality, without Heston ever knowing that was the intention. This came straight from the directors mouth, and is not the only example.

Now honestly...if this kind of practice is common in hollywood (and I'm not commending or condemming the practice), and Batman and Robin has a HISTORY of being associated with gay overtones (most notable by Dr. Fredric Wertham in 1954's "Seduction of the Innocent"), and the movie begins with gratuitous "butt shots" of batman and Robin suiting up, and the director is openly gay, how can you not expect people to get a "gay vibe" from the movie? No one is bashing homosexuality (at least I'm not) but you can't reasonably dismiss anyone who gets that feeling as a gay-basher.

As for the argument about "no one caring ibout gratuitous boob shots.." remember your target audience. This is a BAMTAN movie. If George Clooney was in the sequel to "Bridges of Madison County", or another movie clearly targeted at a female audience, and you focused on Clooney's butt, it would fit and no one would scream "gay." If they then focused on a girl's breasts in the same movie, that would easily be interprited as a "lesbian overtone" Batman is overwelmingly targeted to male audiences...a male butt shot is out of place...unless your attempting a bit of homo-erotic tonage.

Um, the main focus of this thread is not to debate *if* the overtones exist, which they clearly do obviously. It was discuss the use of homophobic language and comments which were used to 'bash' B+R.

But I accept your points, 'gayness' exists in loads of movies, i've given examples of some in previous postings.

 

[Timstuff]

why do people see homo-eroticism or inuendo in movies as a bad thing.....gay people go to see these movies and i dont think they mind a little homo eroticism in movies ....i mean come on its guys with great bodies in skin tight costumes ....what gay guy wouldnt wanna see that....i know im not complaining

Keep in mind, only an estimated 5% of the population is gay. Why should the other 95% of the male population have to watch a Batman movie in a state of constant derousal, just for the sake of that oh-so-niche 5%?

 

[Mladen]

Keep in mind, only an estimated 5% of the population is gay. Why should the other 95% of the male population have to watch a Batman movie in a state of constant derousal, just for the sake of that oh-so-niche 5%?

More than 50% of the population is female.
I'm sure they might appreciate some Batman and Robin ass.
Actually, MORE of the population is watching in derousal when they show Batgirl's ass, so why aren't you complaining about that?
Is it because you're a bigot? I don't know you personally, so you tell me if i'm reading you wrong here.

If its a question of simple percentages, 0.0001% of films depict homosexual content. Not every movie should have to cater to the white anglo male majority.

 

[The Joker]

Keep in mind, only an estimated 5% of the population is gay. Why should the other 95% of the male population have to watch a Batman movie in a state of constant derousal, just for the sake of that oh-so-niche 5%?

Constant derousal......exaggerate much?

The shots of their asses only last about a second and a half. Whereas you've got sexy Uma Thurman, Elle McPherson, Nicole Kidman etc to feast your eyes on for the remainder of the movies.

 

[Ion Kenshin]

Keep in mind, only an estimated 5% of the population is gay. Why should the other 95% of the male population have to watch a Batman movie in a state of constant derousal, just for the sake of that oh-so-niche 5%?

seriously...that two seconds of a bat nipple and a zipper on the butt really upset your whole world ....you suffered from a plethora of derousal from that short moment in the movie.

 

[RobC]

This thread is making me deroused.

No seriously... This posrer is obviously misinformed as his arguments are nothing more then playground comments. Batman is teh gay. You see his ass. Batman and Robin are in love.

Bottom line? Grow up.

 

[Micah12345]

I was never bothered by the butt-shots. I thought they were kind of funny.

 

[Angeloz]

First off, I'll state for the record, that the kind of arguments and statements made by the poster seem to scream "These are my points, and if you argue them you'll be labeled a homophobe" and really do little to advance his argument. But I'll put what I percieve to be the poster's intentions aside, and give a legitimate answer.

Watch the independant film "The Celluloid Closet." For those not familiar, it is a documentry about homosexuality in hollywood, and how gay subtext has been quietly infused in movies throughout hollywoods history by gay and straight filmmakers alike. An example is Sparticus...the character played by Charlton Heston was gay....only they never told Heston this. They directed his perfomance to reflect the character's sexuality, without Heston ever knowing that was the intention. This came straight from the directors mouth, and is not the only example.

Now honestly...if this kind of practice is common in hollywood (and I'm not commending or condemming the practice), and Batman and Robin has a HISTORY of being associated with gay overtones (most notable by Dr. Fredric Wertham in 1954's "Seduction of the Innocent"), and the movie begins with gratuitous "butt shots" of batman and Robin suiting up, and the director is openly gay, how can you not expect people to get a "gay vibe" from the movie? No one is bashing homosexuality (at least I'm not) but you can't reasonably dismiss anyone who gets that feeling as a gay-basher.

As for the argument about "no one caring ibout gratuitous boob shots.." remember your target audience. This is a BAMTAN movie. If George Clooney was in the sequel to "Bridges of Madison County", or another movie clearly targeted at a female audience, and you focused on Clooney's butt, it would fit and no one would scream "gay." If they then focused on a girl's breasts in the same movie, that would easily be interprited as a "lesbian overtone" Batman is overwelmingly targeted to male audiences...a male butt shot is out of place...unless your attempting a bit of homo-erotic tonage.

I just want to say Charlton Heston was not Spartacus - he was Ben Hur - to get the record straight. Also the other actor was told to act as though his character loved Hur (especially when they were children as you say) but was rebuffed (as adults).

Angeloz

 

[RobC]

Wasn't Kirk Douglas playing Spartacus?

Yeah that makes sense, if you study it, hundreds of Hollywood films have gay subtext, Fight Club, Rocky, 300 to name but a few.

I have no problem with gay subtext, or even gay text, but some people obviously do, and I think that's sad. Why be bothered with it? Why can't it be used in movies? Gay subtext is just as valid as straight subtext, as Jewish subtext, as any subtext...

 

[Angeloz]

Wasn't Kirk Douglas playing Spartacus?

Yeah that makes sense, if you study it, hundreds of Hollywood films have gay subtext, Fight Club, Rocky, 300 to name but a few.

I have no problem with gay subtext, or even gay text, but some people obviously do, and I think that's sad. Why be bothered with it? Why can't it be used in movies? Gay subtext is just as valid as straight subtext, as Jewish subtext, as any subtext...

You're right about Spartacus. I don't have a problem with gay subtext or text either. It doesn't make me watch a film nor refuse to see it. 'Cos I like stuff about other worlds - ancient, futuristic, or alternate. Maybe that's why I like superheros i.e. alternate fantasy world with magical/alien/special beings that help the world.

Angeloz

 

[Timstuff]

I was never bothered by the butt-shots. I thought they were kind of funny.

Yup, and that's what it boils down to... The homoeroticism in Schumacher's movies turned Batman into a joke. I remember I laughed at the butt shots too, but I can't tell you how many times I must have heard the term "Buttman and Rubbin'" in regards to B&R. Basically, people hate Schumacher's movies because they set Batman back by about 30-40 years. Just when it seemed like Batman had finally restored his street cred, Schumacher sent him back to the days of slapstick and homoerotic laughs.

 

[Angeloz]

Yup, and that's what it boils down to... The homoeroticism in Schumacher's movies turned Batman into a joke. I remember I laughed at the butt shots too, but I can't tell you how many times I must have heard the term "Buttman and Rubbin'" in regards to B&R. Basically, people hate Schumacher's movies because they set Batman back by about 30-40 years. Just when it seemed like Batman had finally restored his street cred, Schumacher sent him back to the days of slapstick and homoerotic laughs.

Didn't affect me as far as I remember. It might now because of the thread. I'm a woman. I'll note at the time I had no idea who the director was. Not until much later and it doesn't worry me. I only cared if I liked the films or not. At the time I liked "Batman Forever" but avoided "Batman and Robin". I saw it on video and thought it a travesty. But mainly from the characters and story. I'll grant you I wasn't one for cinematography and I am an old school "Doctor Who" fan. I'll admit it if I watch the third film now I might feel differently. Especially the look of Gotham. As it's probably dated in the third and fourth pictures. I have watched the first two and liked the look still. That said if I watch the fourth film it might be only with the commentary as I don't think I can watch it again otherwise. But this is because it doesn't respect the characters. Not the way it was filmed. Again I'm a woman so I don't mind nice shots of them. However back when they were released I would of been largely oblivious (young and no internet to corrupt me ). Oh well.

Angeloz

 

[Timstuff]

When I was a kid I loved Batman Forever. Looking back it's still a fairly fun, if not shallow and heavily formalistic (I'm more classicist in my film preferences, personally) popcorn flick. However, Batman and Robin took everything that was bad or potentially bad about Batman Forever and blew it totally out of proportion. It was like a parody of Batman Forever, and even as a kid who liked Batman Forever, I thought it was awful. And I remember very specifically that I hated George Clooney as Batman (back then Val Kilmer was my favorite Batman).

 

[Angeloz]

I've just rewatched "Batman Forever" and I still like it. Both from an inner child POV as well as an adult one. I love how it explores duality including Bruce Wayne/Batman. More than the other two films I think. I didn't mind the different slant either - both styles were fine (i.e. Keaton's Bruce was uncomfortable with being himself and his riches; Kilmer was comfortable). As stated I thought they worked. But really it's an entertaining 2 hour film. And there were quite a few sexy women in it (Dr. Chase Meridian; Sugar; Spice). Not that I was watching it for that. I'll admit I don't get the criticism of that film. Unless people just want very dark (I don't mind that either if interestingly or entertainingly done). I don't mind a recap if someone wants to explain - I won't bite (much ).

Angeloz

 

[RobC]

Yeah exactly, we all know that Schumacher made an extremely different film from what's been done before. There was homoerotic subtext, intentional or not, it was there. But as well as that the script was awful, especially so in B+R, the cinematography was passable, and there was clearly creative differences between the different divisions creating the film.

However all of this doesn't change that homophobic comments are unneccesarily used to degrade this movie, usually in an immature way by people such as Timstuff. Angeloz, I salute you, you're using your brain and disecting the movie with your comments, some other people are just making ridiculous comments...

 

[Angeloz]

Yeah exactly, we all know that Schumacher made an extremely different film from what's been done before. There was homoerotic subtext, intentional or not, it was there. But as well as that the script was awful, especially so in B+R, the cinematography was passable, and there was clearly creative differences between the different divisions creating the film.

However all of this doesn't change that homophobic comments are unneccesarily used to degrade this movie, usually in an immature way by people such as Timstuff. Angeloz, I salute you, you're using your brain and disecting the movie with your comments, some other people are just making ridiculous comments...

Thank you for your kind words. Though I don't claim to be very deep in analysing the films. I can't really comment on "Batman & Robin" because I saw it once and thought it an absolute travesty. It wasn't because it was homoerotic though. Besides, what little I remember, was there was some sort of credit card fight between Batman and Robin. Was it over women or something? If so, hardly homoerotic. There were also shots of Batgirl that were sexy too I believe.

But I can point out again there were quite a few sexily clad women in "Batman Forever". Two-Face's couple of girlfriends - Sugar and Spice. As well as quite a few shots of Nicole Kidman. There was her at the batsignal taking off her robe. Then her sexily posed in her bed. Not to mention trying to seduce Batman. So if you want to accuse the film of being homoerotic it's because that sort of thing has been there since the beginning as mentioned in Federick Wertham's book (not that I've read it but I have heard about it). That's why they had that Aunt in it including in the TV series. So to deflect that criticism. That said based on the sexy women and shots of sexy women the film can be accused of heterosexual images too. Actually they're much more blatant than the other accusation.

Angeloz

 

[StylishHokie21]

When I was a kid I loved Batman Forever. Looking back it's still a fairly fun, if not shallow and heavily formalistic (I'm more classicist in my film preferences, personally) popcorn flick. However, Batman and Robin took everything that was bad or potentially bad about Batman Forever and blew it totally out of proportion. It was like a parody of Batman Forever, and even as a kid who liked Batman Forever, I thought it was awful. And I remember very specifically that I hated George Clooney as Batman (back then Val Kilmer was my favorite Batman).

QFT

 

[RobC]

No, don't get me wrong, Batman and Robin had a strong homo-erotic subtext, every Batman movie does, it's mainly the costume, but more specifically the relationship between Bruce and Dick (No pun intended) it's not the intentions, but it's there.

But again, the point of this thread was not about whether B+R has homsexual over/undertones, that's been debated to death on the internet, it was too tell people to stop using homosexual slurs and homphobic language when discussing B+R.

 

[Surge38]

Ok after my post, someone pointed out that the nature of this thread was not whether homosexual overtones EXIST in Batman and Robin, but that people should stop blaming the homoerotisism for the movie sucking. I direct you to this quote, that motivated me to post:

....I contest that there is anything gay about BF and B&R at all and I'll argue the points made by many fans time and again:

1. There is a homosexual subtext to the films - Where? Do Batman and Robin get it on any point in the films? Is Bruce Wayne presented as anything other than heterosexual in his interactions with the films' female characters? One could argue that the approach is camp, but camp does not equate gayness, it equates intended or ironic silliness, certainly not a homoerotic subtext.

So yes, the original post was CLEARLY making the argument that there was NO homoerotic overtones in the movie, and thats why I posted.

Now I've never said that there is anything wrong with overtones. But when you have a movie with a target audience of 99% hetero males, then such overtones aren't really appropriate for THAT movie. And Shumacher should have known that. Just like it was inappropriate for that same target audience to make the movie so CAMP. Bottom line is Shumacher didn't make the movie the fans wanted to see...he made the one he persoanlly wanted to make. THAT is why it sucked.

Putting that aside...it was also the WAY the homoerotic elements were used. They were played for laughs, not to be sexy. We didn't get a sweeping shot of shirtless Chris O'Donnell working out...I could understand why that would appeal to the ladies (or gay fellas). Instead, we get a quick zoom shot of batman hiking his batsuit up to his ass cheeks...with a "swish" noise. It was meant for a giggle, not as a sexy treat. Handling Batman for laughs is a surefire way to cheese off most of that target audience.

And by the way sorry about the Sparticus/Ben Hur confusion. I saw the documentry a while ago.