How did X2 avoid getting the shaft by FOX???

[LostSon88]

Seriously...

X1 got the shaft with a short run-time and a release date that the producers were obviously not happy about (see the documentary on the 1.5 disc...), FOX obviously didn't want it to succeed as Tom Rothman presumably can't stand CBM.

X3 got the shaft...do I even hafta explain?

But for some reason, X2, was basically given the free pass by FOX and as a result is regarded as one of the greatest CBM ever made.

Now considering FOXs treatment with other properties ie Fantastic Four, where its obvious they're being catered to kids and being made mostly for the moolah, it got me wondering...how did X2 avoid FOXs grasp?

 

[BMM]

Seriously...

X1 got the shaft with a short run-time and a release date that the producers were obviously not happy about (see the documentary on the 1.5 disc...), FOX obviously didn't want it to succeed as Tom Rothman presumably can't stand CBM.

X3 got the shaft...do I even hafta explain?

But for some reason, X2, was basically given the free pass by FOX and as a result is regarded as one of the greatest CBM ever made.

Now considering FOXs treatment with other properties ie Fantastic Four, where its obvious they're being catered to kids and being made mostly for the moolah, it got me wondering...how did X2 avoid FOXs grasp?

X2 was the sequel to a surprisingly successful movie (surprising to the studio) that was one of the highest grossing films of its year... so the studio granted its creative team a little more time, money, and freedom for the sequel.

Even then, it wasn't really ever given a "free pass" by Fox. Most tentpoles aren't. For instance, a lot of cool stuff was cut from X2. An almost fully constructed Danger Room (seen in the first X2 teaser) was cut due to budgetary constraints. An army of sentinels which was to be heavily featured in the movie was also cut because the studio wouldn't allow it. Studio executives also demanded certain scenes be included in the movie such as the Mystique/Wolverine tent scene, among other things. I believe on the X2 DVD, the creative team/production even refer to themselves as guerrilla filmmakers attempting to get away with as much as they can without the studio knowing about it while shooting in Canada.

Overall, I would say that the seemingly free pass X2 was given was due to the fact that its creative team had earned more confidence/support due to the first installment's proven success.

It's still pretty crazy to think that movies about the X-Men, an ensemble team of superheroes, were given smaller budgets than the likes of Ghost Rider, Hulk, the Fantastic Four, etc.

 

[Silvermoth]

I believe its because Singer also acted as a producer in that film and therefore got a larger consideration in the decision making and pre production stages.

Plus, alot of the Marvel execs were concerned about making good films back then. Not any more

 

[3dman27]

Seriously...

X1 got the shaft with a short run-time and a release date that the producers were obviously not happy about (see the documentary on the 1.5 disc...), FOX obviously didn't want it to succeed as Tom Rothman presumably can't stand CBM.

X3 got the shaft...do I even hafta explain?

But for some reason, X2, was basically given the free pass by FOX and as a result is regarded as one of the greatest CBM ever made.

Now considering FOXs treatment with other properties ie Fantastic Four, where its obvious they're being catered to kids and being made mostly for the moolah, it got me wondering...how did X2 avoid FOXs grasp?

if a studio head doesn't like comic book movies why would the studio contract to do one in the first place?

 

[co2]

I had always wondered how X2 turned out as well as it did considering what has happened to every other Marvel project that has come out of that studio...and Fox has produced more Marvel films than any other studio.

 

[LostSon88]

if a studio head doesn't like comic book movies why would the contract to do one in the first place?

Business decision. Personally though, its known that Rothman doesn't have much respect for CBM.

He made that pretty apparent when he did X3, which was pretty much made in a rush simply to get back at Singer...

 

[X-Maniac]

X2 was the sequel to a surprisingly successful movie (surprising to the studio) that was one of the highest grossing films of its year... so the studio granted its creative team a little more time, money, and freedom for the sequel.

Even then, it wasn't really ever given a "free pass" by Fox. Most tentpoles aren't. For instance, a lot of cool stuff was cut from X2. An almost fully constructed Danger Room (seen in the first X2 teaser) was cut due to budgetary constraints. An army of sentinels which was to be heavily featured in the movie was also cut because the studio wouldn't allow it. Studio executives also demanded certain scenes be included in the movie such as the Mystique/Wolverine tent scene, among other things. I believe on the X2 DVD, the creative team/production even refer to themselves as guerrilla filmmakers attempting to get away with as much as they can without the studio knowing about it while shooting in Canada.

Overall, I would say that the seemingly free pass X2 was given was due to the fact that its creative team had earned more confidence/support due to the first installment's proven success.

It's still pretty crazy to think that movies about the X-Men, an ensemble team of superheroes, were given smaller budgets than the likes of Ghost Rider, Hulk, the Fantastic Four, etc.

Absolutely right. A lot was cut from X2 - a Toad/Nightcrawler fight scene at the dam (where Toad was to have been a prisoner), Archangel being at the dam (in a cell next to Cyclops), a scene in which Gambit's cards explode and Beast's blue fur sprouts as Cerebro targets mutants and makes their powers go crazy. All of which would have been brilliant additions to the movie.

Fortunately, the absence of those things isn't obvious in the movie.

Unfortunately, the absence of certain things IS obvious (to fans at least) in X Men: The Last Stand.

I'm amazed that Fox allowed X2's length.

I've also heard that the Mystique/Wolverine tent scene was a way of showing 'Jean' and Wolverine getting it on with each other. The studio wanted Cyclops out of the way even then, which is partly why he's absent for most of the movie.

 

[Tempest19]

Plus, alot of the Marvel execs were concerned about making good films back then. Not any more

That comment, in my opinion is BEYOND ridiculous.

'Iron Man' will give us a better idea of a true Marvel film. That's the first film they have most creative decisions in and if I'm correct they started blocking Fox from getting their hands on any more of their properties- that should tell you something. Fox only cares about money, strongest case in point- they had a great Daredevil film, in my opinion, which had a very interesting character arc from going from a vigilante to the guardian devil- a superhero film mixed with a John Grisham novel type feel. What did Fox do for theatrical? "Give us boobies and the only scenes that remain, for the most part, are the fight sequences!" That's Fox for you ladies and gentlemen, the kind of producers Jackson poked at in the film 'King Kong'. I love that scene between Denham and the execs because that seriously reminds me of the current Fox execs.

Also, IMO, BB-SM2-SR-DD(DC)-X2.

WB has cared for DC properties for years, and I believe that Marvel's new creative freedom is PERFECT so far... I mean, 'Iron Man' is seriously looking BB calibur in my opinion. And that's PHENOMENAL!!! Hell, we even got Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury! Then look at the cast they have for 'Hulk', my god- excellent cast AGAIN. And I'm talking really really notable actors who are PHENOMENAL in their craft. Then we have Captain America for which they got the guy who wrote 'Road to Perdition' to pen the screenplay for the film!!!

X3- Fox didn't want to wait for Singer, they pushed it into development. From there it was up to MARVEL to try to make the best film out of the scenario they had... Fox RUSHING everything along with Ratner, cast and crew pretty much running around, jumping over hurdles to save it from becoming a complete disaster due to Fox's "release it now, cut it now, money now!!!" policys that frankly suck, imo.

Hell, Fox recently- although I'm going to see it- did the same god damn mother fckin' thing to Die Hard!!!! So, it's not just Marvel properties Fox's editors are butchering for $$$.

Tell me, with a straight face, that you still believe that MARVEL doesn't care. Tell me, I dare you. This is all Fox and they're crappy editors who are more in it for making money over quality. Marvel gets good films in the works, Fox hacks them up and tears them apart limb by limb. They raped Daredevil in the editing room, that should tell you something.

Why else do you think Marvel is starting to go with a "solo act"?!!!

 

[Gilpesh]

Yeah. I would just say that it was the filmmakers using psychology to their advantage. They asked for more than they expected then did the best with what they could pull together.

But X2 did get the shaft from Fox and the version everyone loves is actually the s**ty cut of the movie.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

But X2 did get the shaft from Fox and the version everyone loves is actually the s**ty cut of the movie.

'Cut' is not the right word, as there is only one cut of X2.

 

[November Rain]

x2 got a shaft, only it was relatively smaller...

personally i felt it got a bigger shaft than the first one even though the first one got a big budget shaft but you cant expect much since it was the real first of its time excluding blade of course...

 

[Gilpesh]

'Cut' is not the right word, as there is only one cut of X2.

Alllllright. All we got was a s**ty X2 which turns out to be better than most other comic films.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

x2 got a shaft, only it was relatively smaller...

personally i felt it got a bigger shaft than the first one even though the first one got a big budget shaft but you cant expect much since it was the real first of its time excluding blade of course...

How did X2 get shafted? So there were some planned scenes that didn't eventually get filmed. That happens with every single film. The danger room and Toad vs Nightcrawler scenes would have been cool, but made little difference to the overall story.

It's silly to say the movie was shafted because a few potentially cool but not essential scenes never made it.

 

[November Rain]

How did X2 get shafted? So there were some planned scenes that didn't eventually get filmed. That happens with every single film. The danger room and Toad vs Nightcrawler scenes would have been cool, but made little difference to the overall story.

It's silly to say the movie was shafted because a few potentially cool but not essential scenes never made it.

unlike most, i'm not a fan of x2 which i felt took directions storywise and over emphasised on wolverine far too much as well as turning cerebro into a useful plot device weapon which magneto could have easily have used in the first film but instead goes with his government official plan.

I also feel they dropped the ball with lady deathstrike as well as also encoporating magneto once again into the fold where another mutant could have been easily used again (giving magneto's involvement in the third installment more depth).

Also with deathstrike, they changed the adamantium processing history as a way of dealing with deathstrike when the electricity used in the graphic novel was a easy and better way of getting the same point across.

The rogue character was not developed and the bobby/family denial part was never really sorted out and kinda dragged, it was an element that wasn't required.

The alkali lake ending ended up taking about half an hour to tell that small segment of story and jean's sacrifice was somewhat pretty weak to think she also couldn't do the same thing while flying and save herself.

overall i feel let down that the graphic novel told a better more involving story with wolverine taking out agression in a well needed danger room sequence.

I also thought his beserker rage was somewhat dumbed down and can't believe people refer to that sequence as wolverine going 'beserk'

a lack of introduction of mutant team members was also poor and the low treatment of cyclops is well......shambolic, especially with plenty of promise showed in the first film. He acted more like an old retired x-man who took the professor to see eric and happened to see one of the students still there (jean) rather than a team leader.

most importantly the plot in the first one was a clever means of getting world awareness of mutants and their rights by turning people 'into' mutants. Very clever and political move. In this film it becomes a lowest common denominator 'destroy all mutants/humans' based story which really lacks any sort of proper depth or meaning behind it.

I could go on if you like?

 

[Kevin Roegele]

unlike most, i'm not a fan of x2 which i felt took directions storywise and over emphasised on wolverine far too much as well as turning cerebro into a useful plot device weapon which magneto could have easily have used in the first film but instead goes with his government official plan.

I also feel they dropped the ball with lady deathstrike as well as also encoporating magneto once again into the fold where another mutant could have been easily used again (giving magneto's involvement in the third installment more depth).

Also with deathstrike, they changed the adamantium processing history as a way of dealing with deathstrike when the electricity used in the graphic novel was a easy and better way of getting the same point across.

The rogue character was not developed and the bobby/family denial part was never really sorted out and kinda dragged, it was an element that wasn't required.

The alkali lake ending ended up taking about half an hour to tell that small segment of story and jean's sacrifice was somewhat pretty weak to think she also couldn't do the same thing while flying and save herself.

overall i feel let down that the graphic novel told a better more involving story with wolverine taking out agression in a well needed danger room sequence.

I also thought his beserker rage was somewhat dumbed down and can't believe people refer to that sequence as wolverine going 'beserk'

a lack of introduction of mutant team members was also poor and the low treatment of cyclops is well......shambolic, especially with plenty of promise showed in the first film. He acted more like an old retired x-man who took the professor to see eric and happened to see one of the students still there (jean) rather than a team leader.

most importantly the plot in the first one was a clever means of getting world awareness of mutants and their rights by turning people 'into' mutants. Very clever and political move. In this film it becomes a lowest common denominator 'destroy all mutants/humans' based story which really lacks any sort of proper depth or meaning behind it.

I could go on if you like?

I agree with you on certain issues - I am by no means a huge fan of X2 either. I prefer the original film, as it was a very atmospheric sci-fi drama. It wasn't epic or spectacular, but it was very dramatic and tense. X2 is far more of a conventional superhero movie, huge scale, more colour, more action, more characters, less drama.

Here's the perfect demonstration of what I mean. Watch the scene in X1 where Logan says goodbye to Rogue at the end. Wonderful scene. Then watch them meet up again in X2, and it's completely flat. All the chemistry created in X2 is completely gone.

Also, watch Prof X and Magneto's final meeting in X1, in the plastic prison. Extremely tense, dramatic, claustrophobic. A real sense of forboding. Incredible chemistry between McKellen and Stewart. Then watch them meet again in X2, and it's all gone.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

unlike most, i'm not a fan of x2 which i felt took directions storywise and over emphasised on wolverine far too much as well as turning cerebro into a useful plot device weapon which magneto could have easily have used in the first film but instead goes with his government official plan.

I also feel they dropped the ball with lady deathstrike as well as also encoporating magneto once again into the fold where another mutant could have been easily used again (giving magneto's involvement in the third installment more depth).

Also with deathstrike, they changed the adamantium processing history as a way of dealing with deathstrike when the electricity used in the graphic novel was a easy and better way of getting the same point across.

The rogue character was not developed and the bobby/family denial part was never really sorted out and kinda dragged, it was an element that wasn't required.

The alkali lake ending ended up taking about half an hour to tell that small segment of story and jean's sacrifice was somewhat pretty weak to think she also couldn't do the same thing while flying and save herself.

overall i feel let down that the graphic novel told a better more involving story with wolverine taking out agression in a well needed danger room sequence.

I also thought his beserker rage was somewhat dumbed down and can't believe people refer to that sequence as wolverine going 'beserk'

a lack of introduction of mutant team members was also poor and the low treatment of cyclops is well......shambolic, especially with plenty of promise showed in the first film. He acted more like an old retired x-man who took the professor to see eric and happened to see one of the students still there (jean) rather than a team leader.

most importantly the plot in the first one was a clever means of getting world awareness of mutants and their rights by turning people 'into' mutants. Very clever and political move. In this film it becomes a lowest common denominator 'destroy all mutants/humans' based story which really lacks any sort of proper depth or meaning behind it.

I could go on if you like?

I agree with you on certain issues - I am by no means a huge fan of X2 either. I prefer the original film, as it was a very atmospheric sci-fi drama. It wasn't epic or spectacular, but it was very dramatic and tense. X2 is far more of a conventional superhero movie, huge scale, more colour, more action, more characters, less drama.

Here's the perfect demonstration of what I mean. Watch the scene in X1 where Logan says goodbye to Rogue at the end. Wonderful scene. Then watch them meet up again in X2, and it's completely flat. All the chemistry created in X2 is completely gone.

Also, watch Prof X and Magneto's final meeting in X1, in the plastic prison. Extremely tense, dramatic, claustrophobic. A real sense of forboding. Incredible chemistry between McKellen and Stewart. Then watch them meet again in X2, and it's all gone.

 

[X-Maniac]

unlike most, i'm not a fan of x2 which i felt took directions storywise and over emphasised on wolverine far too much as well as turning cerebro into a useful plot device weapon which magneto could have easily have used in the first film but instead goes with his government official plan.

I also feel they dropped the ball with lady deathstrike as well as also encoporating magneto once again into the fold where another mutant could have been easily used again (giving magneto's involvement in the third installment more depth).

Also with deathstrike, they changed the adamantium processing history as a way of dealing with deathstrike when the electricity used in the graphic novel was a easy and better way of getting the same point across.

The rogue character was not developed and the bobby/family denial part was never really sorted out and kinda dragged, it was an element that wasn't required.

The alkali lake ending ended up taking about half an hour to tell that small segment of story and jean's sacrifice was somewhat pretty weak to think she also couldn't do the same thing while flying and save herself.

overall i feel let down that the graphic novel told a better more involving story with wolverine taking out agression in a well needed danger room sequence.

I also thought his beserker rage was somewhat dumbed down and can't believe people refer to that sequence as wolverine going 'beserk'

a lack of introduction of mutant team members was also poor and the low treatment of cyclops is well......shambolic, especially with plenty of promise showed in the first film. He acted more like an old retired x-man who took the professor to see eric and happened to see one of the students still there (jean) rather than a team leader.

most importantly the plot in the first one was a clever means of getting world awareness of mutants and their rights by turning people 'into' mutants. Very clever and political move. In this film it becomes a lowest common denominator 'destroy all mutants/humans' based story which really lacks any sort of proper depth or meaning behind it.

I could go on if you like?

Those are fair points - all have been debated/argued/countered at some poimt or other, so I won't go into all that again.

It's interesting that the original script for X2 featured mini-Sentinels invading the mansion to steal Cerebro's databanks and mutant detection systems, with which Stryker was to have equipped an army of 10,000 massive Sentinels based under the dam. Jean was to have evolved into Phoenix, shoved everyone out of the dam and destroyed the Sentinels and herself too in a massive firebird blast. Much more sci-fi, much more in line with the first movie, much better from a superhero movie point of view than what we got...and what we got does seem a little 'mashed together' in a few places (at the dam especially).

Apparently, budget cuts prevented the Sentinels so the story had to be rewritten. The second movie then became a slight copy of the first one - capture mutant to operate machine to target humans/mutants. The Sentinels idea was a much more sci-fi one.

I don't regard X2 as one of the best comicbook movies ever made. I think X3 is better as a 'comicbook movie' (as is FF2) but as it has a different creative team, X3 doesn't flow entirely coherently from the previous two in terms of tone (cinematography, lighting, mood, etc) and characterisations. It was also harmed TERRIBLY (in the eyes of fans at least, as i can see online) by the fate of Cyclops. If X3 had treated Cyclops better, it would have been much more widely praised. They really did crap on their own doorstep with that decision.

 

[Mr. Socko]

with X1, Singer proved he could make a decent flick. So they gave him more freedom with the sequel.

 

[Spade]

How did X2 get shafted? So there were some planned scenes that didn't eventually get filmed. That happens with every single film. The danger room and Toad vs Nightcrawler scenes would have been cool, but made little difference to the overall story.

It's silly to say the movie was shafted because a few potentially cool but not essential scenes never made it.

The entire original intention on Singer's part to use the Sentinels to move the movie's climax along was scrapped by FOX due to the fact that they didn't want to expand the budget, so there's a fair amount that went bye-bye from this film.

If anything, it proves two things- 1) that Singer was trying to do good by the X-Men storyline, and 2) that he was interested in the quality of the overall film. People overlook that because of the wrong direction he went with Superman Returns, but this movie sheds light on reasons otherwise.

 

[X-Maniac]

with X1, Singer proved he could make a decent flick. So they gave him more freedom with the sequel.

It's not as simple as that. He didn't get that much freedom. As I mentioned, if you'd care to pay attention, a lot was cut from the movie and he had to try to get away with as much as he could. For some reason, they allowed the longer running time as well, but they blocked Sentinels and many other things.

 

[X-Maniac]

The entire original intention on Singer's part to use the Sentinels to move the movie's climax along was scrapped by FOX due to the fact that they didn't want to expand the budget, so there's a fair amount that went bye-bye from this film.

If anything, it proves two things- 1) that Singer was trying to do good by the X-Men storyline, and 2) that he was interested in the quality of the overall film. People overlook that because of the wrong direction he went with Superman Returns, but this movie sheds light on reasons otherwise.

Indeed... Singer (and the writers) were trying to step up the game considerably. And, yet, oddly, given the massive budget for Superman Returns he didn't use it to add in sci-fi/comicbook elements. If only X2 had been given the SR budget.

Even X3 had budgetary restraints - they prevented the Phoenix firebird effects, apparently, and other things too.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

The entire original intention on Singer's part to use the Sentinels to move the movie's climax along was scrapped by FOX due to the fact that they didn't want to expand the budget, so there's a fair amount that went bye-bye from this film.

If anything, it proves two things- 1) that Singer was trying to do good by the X-Men storyline, and 2) that he was interested in the quality of the overall film. People overlook that because of the wrong direction he went with Superman Returns, but this movie sheds light on reasons otherwise.

So, basically, X2 could have been a spectacular, absolutely huge superhero epic....

Imagine if Singer had been given a Spider-Man 2/3 budget on X2.....

 

[November Rain]

Those are fair points - all have been debated/argued/countered at some poimt or other, so I won't go into all that again.

It's interesting that the original script for X2 featured mini-Sentinels invading the mansion to steal Cerebro's databanks and mutant detection systems, with which Stryker was to have equipped an army of 10,000 massive Sentinels based under the dam. Jean was to have evolved into Phoenix, shoved everyone out of the dam and destroyed the Sentinels and herself too in a massive firebird blast. Much more sci-fi, much more in line with the first movie, much better from a superhero movie point of view than what we got...and what we got does seem a little 'mashed together' in a few places (at the dam especially).

Apparently, budget cuts prevented the Sentinels so the story had to be rewritten. The second movie then became a slight copy of the first one - capture mutant to operate machine to target humans/mutants. The Sentinels idea was a much more sci-fi one.

I don't regard X2 as one of the best comicbook movies ever made. I think X3 is better as a 'comicbook movie' (as is FF2) but as it has a different creative team, X3 doesn't flow entirely coherently from the previous two in terms of tone (cinematography, lighting, mood, etc) and characterisations. It was also harmed TERRIBLY (in the eyes of fans at least, as i can see online) by the fate of Cyclops. If X3 had treated Cyclops better, it would have been much more widely praised. They really did crap on their own doorstep with that decision.

I don't only think cyclops was mistreated but so were Jean, professor xavier and angel

angel was advertised as being somewhat of a big character but infact all he did was play a cameo part, he never even joined the team i believe.

we all know about cyclops

Xavier went from being caring and compassionate to only giving a damn about himself and being unsympathetic to cyclops' bereavement. Not only this but he then went and treated jean badly by putting mental blocks in her when Jason in X2 had no blocks put in him. Varying methods of treatment while he decides there is nothing he can do for one, he does something that would have been helpful to another.

His breach of jean's mind before he died was silly ESPECIALLY when he knew the size of the threat and also that he had specifically told her not to at the beginning of the film during the flashback. He certainly didn't come off as a person who had decades worth of experience helping mutants.

Not only this but bringing back jean to eventually die again so soon, hte heroic tales of wolverine being centre again and storm that was fairly misplaced.

Not to mention rogue of all people actually going through with it and having the cure.


I think x3 strayed a lil too far from its roots to be fair but it's not for me, perhaps it was for other peeps...

 

[X-Maniac]

I don't only think cyclops was mistreated but so were Jean, professor xavier and angel

angel was advertised as being somewhat of a big character but infact all he did was play a cameo part, he never even joined the team i believe.

we all know about cyclops

Xavier went from being caring and compassionate to only giving a damn about himself and being unsympathetic to cyclops' bereavement. Not only this but he then went and treated jean badly by putting mental blocks in her when Jason in X2 had no blocks put in him. Varying methods of treatment while he decides there is nothing he can do for one, he does something that would have been helpful to another.

His breach of jean's mind before he died was silly ESPECIALLY when he knew the size of the threat and also that he had specifically told her not to at the beginning of the film during the flashback. He certainly didn't come off as a person who had decades worth of experience helping mutants.

Not only this but bringing back jean to eventually die again so soon, hte heroic tales of wolverine being centre again and storm that was fairly misplaced.

Not to mention rogue of all people actually going through with it and having the cure.


I think x3 strayed a lil too far from its roots to be fair but it's not for me, perhaps it was for other peeps...

None of which is relevant to the title of this thead.

 

[November Rain]

Fair point, although the conversation has evolved slightly.

I think it's clear now that x2 is not as impervious as the thread starter originally thought and it did indeed get a shaft of some form although probably not as much as the others.