Comics How do you guys feel about the whole Osborn as a major marvel universe villian thing?

[The Bruce]

I still want Spidey to be the one to finally show up and take down Osborn for good! I can't believe Pete has not had a bigger role in all of this Osborn lord of the world stuff.... They have so much history together. I would hate to have Osborn show up as a villian in another hero's book after all this.

NOTHING COMPARES TO THE DYNAMIC BETWEEN PETE AND OSBORN

Bendis is great in Ultimate Marvel...But as a fan of the old school he has messed up Stan's universe.

 

[Saved]

Yeah, God forbid anything changes after fifty years. This is no different then Lex in DC. He's become a major villain, and not just isolated to Superman. Interaction between villains and different heroes is what keeps things fresh. Osborn fighting Cap or Iron Man in future issues doesn't destroy anything, it adds new levels. It's not like he's switching from Spider-Man's rogue gallery to someone elses.

 

[SpideyInATree]

I actually enjoyed that they made Norman Osborn a major villain in the whole Marvel Universe. Back when Warren Ellis and Mike Deodato did their Thunderbolts run and he was leading them, it was a very interesting dynamic.

However, they definitely got a little carried away with his appearances. It seemed that Norman was appearing in every Marvel book, heh. As a big Spidey fan it would be nice to see Peter be the one to be like, "Ok, Osborn, I'm your mortal enemy and I HAVE to be the one to defeat you because that's what makes sense to the fans!" That does not make sense.

I loved in Siege # 3 when Iron Man showed up in his old school 80's armor and owned Osborn. Then Spidey walked up and punched him right in the face and told him to shut up. That was pretty cool.

So, I like it. Now with the Siege event and his take down I hope that Osborn gets a little rest in the Marvel U.

 

[C. Pumpkins]

I loved it, and I think Dark Reign will be a hot collectible in the future. However, they had an opportunity to tie in Norman's rise to power with Peter's demon deal. That would of been a perfectly redeeming plot device to use. Plus, Norman was taken out way too easily for my tastes. After all this time of him being around he should of went out with a much louder bang. Oh well, Bendis has probably had this Sentry idea for a long time now and wanted to use it for Siege's climax instead. Definitely a couple missed opportunities.

I hope we don't see Norman for a while, maybe get Roderick back instead (especially since Stern is making guest writer appearances). Then have Norman sneak attack Spidey again, but as The Green Goblin.

 

[ImWithTeamConan]

For me personally it worked because of Ellis' Thunderbolts work.

 

[SpideyInATree]

I loved it, and I think Dark Reign will be a hot collectible in the future. However, they had an opportunity to tie in Norman's rise to power with Peter's demon deal. That would of been a perfectly redeeming plot device to use. Plus, Norman was taken out way too easily for my tastes. After all this time of him being around he should of went out with a much louder bang. Oh well, Bendis has probably had this Sentry idea for a long time now and wanted to use it for Siege's climax instead. Definitely a couple missed opportunities.

I hope we don't see Norman for a while, maybe get Roderick back instead (especially since Stern is making guest writer appearances). Then have Norman sneak attack Spidey again, but as The Green Goblin.

Osborn did kind of get taken down pretty quickly once Iron Man showed up. There is still the last issue of Siege to come out and depending on what Sentry/The Void does Norman may have enough of a distraction to escape and hide away for a while. Or possibly even get back into the fight somehow. We shall see....

 

[C. Pumpkins]

Honestly, I think we're jumping the gun here. Siege #4 is a double ish. What if The Void is linked to Mesphito somehow? Look at the flames behind Norman. Granted, it could just be the Asgard conflagration or merely the reflection off of Iron Man's yellow-plated mask.

THE MARVEL BLOCKBUSTER OF THE YEAR!! This double-sized finale brings the Dark Reign to a shattering conclusion and brings with it the bombastic new HEROIC AGE. Every single page of this book is a shocker: Lives are changed. Heroes fall. Deaths. Revenge. Villain comeuppance. And when the dust settles, who will be in charge of the Marvel Universe?? You will find out here and only here. This is the one they will be talking about.

http://marvel.com/images/681946./from/onsale.2010-05-12

 

[Dragon]

Yeah, God forbid anything changes after fifty years. This is no different then Lex in DC. He's become a major villain, and not just isolated to Superman. Interaction between villains and different heroes is what keeps things fresh. Osborn fighting Cap or Iron Man in future issues doesn't destroy anything, it adds new levels. It's not like he's switching from Spider-Man's rogue gallery to someone elses.

In fact, it's EXACTLY like Lex Luthor. As in a rip-off of Lex Luthor. Now aside from the problem of it being a rip-off, it was wrong for the character. The man who is the Green Goblin couldn't be Lex Luthor. He isn't merely a megalomaniac. He's a shcizoid. His characterization since his return from the dead doesn't fit.

And worse, it reflects bad writing of Peter. The killing of Gwen Stacy we're told is the darkest moment of Peter's career as Spider-Man. The Goblin, simply because he killed Gwen was elevated to the level of his greatest nemesis. And yet in the Nearly FIFTEEN YEARS since the Goblin's return Peter has done NOTHING. NOTHING to get justice for Gwen. He's beaten Osborn up to "protect" his super powered pal, Harry- but done nothing for Gwen.

Osborn's return, let alone his rise to prominence as THE VILLAIN in the Marvel Unverse is wholly a bad idea.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Warren Ellis' treatment of Osborne in Thunderbolts is some of the best stuff involving Osborne EVER. Seeing him struggling to control the team and his own thoughts was brilliant. Then when he finally snapped and donned the Goblin suit again it was epic.

And it isn't a straight rip off of Lex, as you explained yourself. Because Osborne is a schizo amongst other mental problems, it adds a whole new dynamic to the megalomaniac wanting to take over the world.

 

[Dragon]

Warren Ellis' treatment of Osborne in Thunderbolts is some of the best stuff involving Osborne EVER. Seeing him struggling to control the team and his own thoughts was brilliant. Then when he finally snapped and donned the Goblin suit again it was epic.

And it isn't a straight rip off of Lex, as you explained yourself. Because Osborne is a schizo amongst other mental problems, it adds a whole new dynamic to the megalomaniac wanting to take over the world.

The point is that someone of Osborn's pathology wouldn't be in a position such as he was given in Dark Reign in the first place. When he was first introduced, he wanted merely to run NY's organized crime scene and yet he never succeeded at this. Why? Because though that was his desire, he didn't have the make-up to run such an organization. The Green Goblin is Osborn's alter-ego. While Osborn may have been an effective business man, The Goblin isn't. So altering him to fit into that type of character does nothing to advance him. Especially when there are many other characters established to be of that type.

They could've placed The Red Skull in a position of power, just as the US used Nazi scientists in the space program.

Simply because Ellis' handling might have been good writing in and of itself doesn't matter really. Peter Parker could be very well written as a drug-addicted punisher-esque vigilante type. But it isn't true to his established character.
And what was the big deal about Osborn donning the Goblin costume? He does it all the time anyway. You know he will. He did it during New Ways To Die, also.

What they should've done in returning Osborn (If they had to have him return) is simply let him be who he was, and Peter be who he was. Let Osborn the schizo deal with returning from the dead and continue after his nemesis. Let Peter do what he intended to do before Osborn's death- bring him to justice for Gwen. Have Peter deal with the agony of Osborn's evil continuing on and Gwen's still being gone. A great storyline could have come from this.

 

[Miss Webb]

In crackfic ideology, Osburne should be Peter's natural father.

However, he can't be a big bad, because he doesn't have a goatee. Everyone knows when you're evil a goatee is necessary! That and a wardrobe of pointy things. And thicker eyebrows, yes.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Osborn was never The Man. He was always a pawn of Loki and Doom.

 

[Themanofbat]

The Goblin, simply because he killed Gwen was elevated to the level of his greatest nemesis.

While he certainly was elevated to a very high echelon at the time, there was great debate even then whether or not Spidey's greatest nemesis was GG or Doc Ock...

I would say that the end of the Clone Saga is what elevated Norman to "greatest" on account of the fact that they made him responsible for all of Peter's problems "behind the scenes".... which was very lame in my opinion.

 

[Dragon]

While he certainly was elevated to a very high echelon at the time, there was great debate even then whether or not Spidey's greatest nemesis was GG or Doc Ock...

I would say that the end of the Clone Saga is what elevated Norman to "greatest" on account of the fact that they made him responsible for all of Peter's problems "behind the scenes".... which was very lame in my opinion.

Disagree. There may have been a debate up to ASM #120, but after Gwen's death there wasn't. No one before or since has so damaged Peter, to the point where 37 years after Gwen's death it still lingers.

This isn't to say that the Goblin is a better villain than Ock. He isn't. If anything, Ock is the greater physical threat.

However since Osborn's return, I thnk he's completely lost his footing. Although granted, the writing overall has been so bad as to render pretty much every villain useless.

But making Osborn the source of every evil in Peter's life (If there's a rainy day, it's because Osborn did it) has made his plots that much weaker. There's no surprise, there's merely tacking on. Osborn was just the "shock" ending to the Clone Saga, not a really viable ending. The MKSM storyline was especially silly, having Osborn deny involvement in May's kidnapping only to come back around to his being behind it. Again, casting Osborn as Lex Luthor is cramming a square peg into a round hole. He was unique as a villain because of his schizophrenia. He's merely derivative now.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I actually enjoyed that they made Norman Osborn a major villain in the whole Marvel Universe. Back when Warren Ellis and Mike Deodato did their Thunderbolts run and he was leading them, it was a very interesting dynamic.

However, they definitely got a little carried away with his appearances. It seemed that Norman was appearing in every Marvel book, heh. As a big Spidey fan it would be nice to see Peter be the one to be like, "Ok, Osborn, I'm your mortal enemy and I HAVE to be the one to defeat you because that's what makes sense to the fans!" That does not make sense.

I loved in Siege # 3 when Iron Man showed up in his old school 80's armor and owned Osborn. Then Spidey walked up and punched him right in the face and told him to shut up. That was pretty cool.

Agreed. And Cap's shield zeroing in on the reflection in Osborn's helmet at the end of issue #1 (iirc) was pure gold.

 

[GamerSlyRatchet]

In fact, it's EXACTLY like Lex Luthor. As in a rip-off of Lex Luthor.

Incorrect. Osborn did the whole "evil businessman" bit since the 60's, while Lex was still a bald, mad scientist. If anything, Luthor is a rip-off from Norman.

 

[Saved]

Yeah, Lex wasn't a buisness man til Byrne redid everything in the 80s. Norman's always been an evil corporate guy because of Oscorp and all that. Of course, Norman did die and fall into obscurity until his 90s return as the leader of the Scrier (spelling) cult where he seemed pretty lucid in his new plot to ruin Peter. So, I don't really think either Lex or Norman are rips offs of each other in that respect.

Now, in the whole "evil villain becoming most important man in the world" department - oh yeah, Marvel ripped off President Lex big time. But, even still, it seems the stories turned into their own entities pretty separate from each other.

 

[Dragon]

Incorrect. Osborn did the whole "evil businessman" bit since the 60's, while Lex was still a bald, mad scientist. If anything, Luthor is a rip-off from Norman.

Incorrect. In the 60's Osborn and the Goblin were two separate entities. In fact, in the 60's Osborn was often presented as being a nice guy- even heroic, saving Gwen Stacy and her father from The Kingpin.

It wasn't until his return in the 90's that Osborn was even aware of his Goblin persona. And only after Byrne re-vamped Lex in the 80's into the megalomaniacal businessman was Osborn made into that.

Try actually reading this stuff.

 

[Saved]

Incorrect. In the 60's Osborn and the Goblin were two separate entities. In fact, in the 60's Osborn was often presented as being a nice guy- even heroic, saving Gwen Stacy and her father from The Kingpin.

It wasn't until his return in the 90's that Osborn was even aware of his Goblin persona. And only after Byrne re-vamped Lex in the 80's into the megalomaniacal businessman was Osborn made into that.

Try actually reading this stuff.

When it gets to this point, it's hard to draw a line in the sand about what is real in current continuity, considering they change it a lot, then decide the original stuff was always canon, and then redo it again. But you are right in what you said about Osborn - Stan's way of keeping the fans in the dark until the reveal. (If Stan even knew who GG was in the beginning, I don't remember if he said he always had a plan or if he kinda made it up as he went.)

 

[Dragon]

Stan and Steve Ditko puzzled over the Goblin's identity. Then Stan decided to make the Goblin Osborn, because he thought it would be great to have the Goblin be the father of one of Peter's friends (Thus, they had to hurry and make Peter and Harry friends, as up to that point, they'd been enemies )

I've heard conflicting stories of what Ditko wanted. That he either wanted the Goblin to be Jonah Jzameson or someone new. But this rift apparently resulted in Ditko leaving the book.

 

[Spider-Man '92]

Personally am glad that Norman has become widespread. Yes, I would like a final confrontation with Spidey, but that doesn't have to stop Norman from mettling with other heroes.

 

[Saved]

Stan and Steve Ditko puzzled over the Goblin's identity. Then Stan decided to make the Goblin Osborn, because he thought it would be great to have the Goblin be the father of one of Peter's friends (Thus, they had to hurry and make Peter and Harry friends, as up to that point, they'd been enemies )

I've heard conflicting stories of what Ditko wanted. That he either wanted the Goblin to be Jonah Jzameson or someone new. But this rift apparently resulted in Ditko leaving the book.

I'm hoping this was all in Stan's autobiography (which I'm still reading) cause these are the stories I wanna hear about.

 

[GamerSlyRatchet]

Try actually reading this stuff.

I've read the "stuff". Norman was portrayed as ruthless in the 60's, especially when he framed Mendel Stromm and had him arrested. The lab incident only made his personality worse, ignoring and even gaining hatred for his son Harry, and when he revealed himself to Spidey, there were no signs of double-personality, only Osborn gone from bad to worse. It's not until after this issue that Norman has amnesia from the events, and becomes the "heroic" guy. The ramblings of him trying to be a good father after the first unmasking cannot really be believed, as he was in Goblin mode when he mentioned them.

The split-personality never existed with Norman. It happened to Harry, and it was an invention from the 90's TV series that carried on to the movies and the current comics.

 

[Dragon]

I've read the "stuff". Norman was portrayed as ruthless in the 60's, especially when he framed Mendel Stromm and had him arrested. The lab incident only made his personality worse, ignoring and even gaining hatred for his son Harry, and when he revealed himself to Spidey, there were no signs of double-personality, only Osborn gone from bad to worse. It's not until after this issue that Norman has amnesia from the events, and becomes the "heroic" guy. The ramblings of him trying to be a good father after the first unmasking cannot really be believed, as he was in Goblin mode when he mentioned them.

The split-personality never existed with Norman. It happened to Harry, and it was an invention from the 90's TV series that carried on to the movies and the current comics.

Then I suggest you read them again. Carefully.

So- for you the two issues (ASM #37 & 38) in which Osborn was presented as a ruthless business man equals throughout the 60's??? And even in that story, although unseen, he changes to the Goblin, which is how he shoots Stromm. Ultimately, all of this was nothing but set-up for his being revealed as the Goblin.

Your interpretation is completely off base in that
1. All multiple personalities suffer from amnesia when shifting personas.
2. Norman is never presented as doing anything criminal other than when in Goblin mode aside from framing Stromm. But being shady isn't the same as wanting to take over the world.
3. All of his criminal activities were for no reason but to further his career as the Goblin. He certainly could've been doing the things he's presented as doing now, but that wasn't the character he was developed to be. Prior to his "death" he loved being the Goblin. He enjoyed flying around and blowing things up. That was freedom for him.

In fact, were he the type of megalomaniac he's presented as now, he'd never have become the Goblin in the first place. He'd want the world to see and know that it was Norman Osborn who was in control.

And Harry never suffered from multiple personalities. The only thing he conveniently forgot was Peter's identity. He knew he was the Green Goblin even after being treated, evidenced by his "heroic" appearances as the Goblin in stories such as ASM #180 and 312. So I don't know where you're getting that from.

But in the end, regardless of how you interpret this, Norman's return was ten years after Byrne's revamping of Luthor. And that's how he's being presented.
It isn't as though Marvel hasn't ripped-off DC before- such as when they re-designed The Jackal in Clone Saga 2 to be a green skinned version of the Joker.

 

[GamerSlyRatchet]

Because Byrne's Luthor is totally not a Kingpin rip-off at all...