Iron Man 2 How do you make The Mandarin work for a film?

[TheVileOne]

I think with a character like The Mandarin, Favreau and co. have more scope to reinterpret him. I don't think there are too many hardcore Mandarin fans out there who'll be complaining if Iron Man 3 doesn't feature Fing Fang Foom, magical rings and lizard hands.

Yet you can have Iron Man teaming up with Norse Gods in Avengers? Why?

 

[Keyser Soze]

Yet you can have Iron Man teaming up with Norse Gods in Avengers? Why?

The Avengers and Iron Man are different beasts. Marvel are comfortable enough with Iron Man existing in the same movieverse as The Hulk, and I'm sure they'll happily share the screen in The Avengers, but it still seems like they're keeping The Hulk out of Iron Man 2, as his presence there might prove incongruous. This isn't about the Fing Fang Foom magic stuff not being "realistic" enough - of course the Iron Man series is comic-book fantasy about superpowered flying robot suits - it's about a consistency in tone, and being true to the world the first film established.

Besides, I think you risk overcomplicating The Mandarin's origin by introducing all that mystical stuff, rather than just making the character an enigma.

 

[TheVileOne]

The Avengers and Iron Man are different beasts. Marvel are comfortable enough with Iron Man existing in the same movieverse as The Hulk, and I'm sure they'll happily share the screen in The Avengers, but it still seems like they're keeping The Hulk out of Iron Man 2, as his presence there might prove incongruous. This isn't about the Fing Fang Foom magic stuff not being "realistic" enough - of course the Iron Man series is comic-book fantasy about superpowered flying robot suits - it's about a consistency in tone, and being true to the world the first film established.

Besides, I think you risk overcomplicating The Mandarin's origin by introducing all that mystical stuff, rather than just making the character an enigma.

According to Marvel no they aren't different beasts. All these movies are supposed to mesh and work with each other. Iron Man was the start of this.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

I think the Mandarin should be the Avengers main villain. I mean, that'd be kind of cool and well, No one really has their own enemy anymore in the Marvel universe.

 

[Keyser Soze]

According to Marvel no they aren't different beasts. All these movies are supposed to mesh and work with each other. Iron Man was the start of this.

Yes, and according to Marvel Comics Daredevil exists in the same shared universe as the X-Men or The Watcher, and in a big crossover event that is more epic and all-encompassing in scale, they might even share some panel-space. However, within the Daredevil comic itself, I think it would be rare to see him teaming up with the Silver Surfer these days, or battling MODOK. Writers like Bendis, Brubaker and now Diggle have established a very grounded tone, a noir aesthetic that pits Daredevil against gangsters, ninjas and his own personal demons rather than galactic despots or supernatural monsters, even if such characters do exist in the same universe. Why? Because shoehorning those characters into the story - just because they technically COULD, given its a shared universe - would just be totally incongruous and contrived within the established tone of the story.

Even in the case of the Iron Man comic, from "Extremis" onward we've seen the book have more of a focus on espionage or counter-terrorism than full-scale superheroics. Iron Man has been more likely to battle industrial saboteurs or rogue government officials than mystical alien dragons. And when old-school supervillains like Ghost or soon Whiplash have showed up, it's only been after some reinvention to make them fit better within the established aesthetic of the current Iron Man comic saga.

Take a look at how they reintroduced the Mandarin, specifically, in "Haunted". Gone are the flowing green robes, replaced with a smart black suit. He's less interested in summoning ancient demons to conquer the world than he is with genetic experimentation and attempting mass genocide with biological agents. The magical rings and his convoluted backstory were heavily downplayed, if not outright ignored. And the portrayal was near universally praised, with the Knaufs managing to make a character many fans feared was an outdated relic into a compelling, relevant nemesis once more.

But what you seem to be saying is that the films should make no such attempts to update the Mandarin, that they shouldn't even try to make the character fit more with the established aesthetic of the franchise, and should instead just throw him in there undistilled in all his hokey, stereotypical Silver Age glory - Fing Fang Foom, lizard hands and all - just to... what, to prove a point? When Silver Age Mandarin has been deemed too "comic booky" for even today's comics, you think that he needs to be used in that incarnation in the movies?

Just because I technically could strip off all my clothes and start doing naked cartwheels down the street, doesn't mean it would be a smart idea. And just because Iron Man exists in the same movieverse as Thor and The Hulk doesn't mean Favreau should randomly wrap up the Iron Man trilogy by shoehorning in magic and aliens, and having Robert Downey Jr trading quips with a talking CGI dragon. I'm all for including the Mandarin in the series, but include him in a way that feels organic and consistent with what has come before. It's not a "realism" issue. It's a common sense issue.

 

[kedrell]

^Good answer, KS.

 

[JAK®]

If they are going to 'update' the Mandarin, then I hope they will be more creative than just making him a businessman.

He still needs to be surrounded by east-asian culture, as in the architecture and mythology.

 

[protocida]

The Mandarin is the leader of the criminal organization know as "The 10 Rings". Divided in ten guilds, each led by one of his generals, the Mandarin's criminal empire extents for every sector of the world's infrastructure. He practically rules the world in secret. Many believe he's a urban legend. No one who came face to face with him lived to tell the story. But he's very real. And, armed with ten technological rings of great power, he's practically invencible. A direct descendant of Genghis Khan, the Mandarin is a tactical genius, yet to be discovered by anyone. There is only one man able to make a stand against him: Tony Stark, the Iron Man.

 

[Chris B]

I kinda think that as long as they played it right, I think they could stay true to the comics with keeping the Mandarin's rings be alien technology.

None the less, I still wouldn't have a problem with them being something of his own design.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Here's a quote from Jon Favreau back in October 2008, relating to The Mandarin:

"Mandarin is still an important figure in the Iron Man universe. We have an interesting take on him that allows us to incorporate the whole pantheon of villains. The whole 10 Rings thing in IM 1 was a good tease for it."

So it's good to see there are plans in place.

 

[TheVileOne]

OK, but Favreau also said that he doesn't plan on directing Avengers. Iron Man 3 is kind of up in the air.

I mean, remember how Ratner sort of ruined everything for X3? Just saying someone could come in and change whatever they are planning later on.

 

[The IronMan]

1) I thought fav was signed for a three picture deal.With the success of of the first movie and anticipated hit of the second a change in direction of any kind would be foolish.
2) How do you get make the manarin work for a film? pay him of course if that doesn't work try force

 

[TheVileOne]

1) I thought fav was signed for a three picture deal.With the success of of the first movie and anticipated hit of the second a change in direction of any kind would be foolish.

I don't think anything is set in stone. Remember how there were doubts he would come back for this one? I think his current deal is that he would direct Iron Man 2 and serve as EP for Avengers. I think if he has some creative input at least on Avengers that's good at least.

 

[Raiden]

I think The Mandarin's rings should be tech-based, and not mystic, because in IM's universe it's better not to delve into sorcery and magic. For Avengers, though, Thor will obviously be exception to the rule, but I think limiting that to The Avengers is not a problem.

 

[Rich Santoro]

The rings can be solid-phase energy... an as of yet unseen phenomenon on Earth (eluding to extraterrestrial origins, but left vague).

Then use dialogue, or an analysis video from Stark from a first encounter with Mandarin, that shows that the rings emit an energy field that can be merged with the wearer's consciousness... endowing him conscious control over the fields. The Madarin has learned to use martial arts movement and focus to manipulate the energy fields... and to release their effects.

Works for me, anyways.

 

[FaT_tONle]

I can see Favs walking if Avengers turns into a mess. Maybe Marvel takes a more hands on approach with IM3 and Jon walks. But if IM2 makes money, the only way Marvel doesn't bring him back is if he demands a ridiculous pay raise. Right now IM3/Avengers are still very much in the air and I see problems brewing if history tells us anything. Enjoy IM2 and make the most of the movie going experience is all I can say.

 

[Rich Santoro]

Wow... is this from a little birdy, or something in your gut??? Maybe from a birdy in your gut???

 

[MichaelChen]

To me, the key thing to remember about The Mandarin is, he is not a wizard. he is a thug who throws dirt in your eyes before head-butting you and ripping your face off with his teeth and generally going Joe Pesci on you. Thinking of him as a wizard analogue is an easy mistake to make and it ruins him when you make that mistake. He's savage, he's brutal, and the rings are just a way to get you off balance for the split-second it takes him to jump on you and brutalize you with superhuman martial arts abilities.

 

[MichaelChen]

Take a look at how they reintroduced the Mandarin, specifically, in "Haunted". Gone are the flowing green robes, replaced with a smart black suit. He's less interested in summoning ancient demons to conquer the world than he is with genetic experimentation and attempting mass genocide with biological agents. The magical rings and his convoluted backstory were heavily downplayed, if not outright ignored. And the portrayal was near universally praised, with the Knaufs managing to make a character many fans feared was an outdated relic into a compelling, relevant nemesis once more.

But what you seem to be saying is that the films should make no such attempts to update the Mandarin, that they shouldn't even try to make the character fit more with the established aesthetic of the franchise, and should instead just throw him in there undistilled in all his hokey, stereotypical Silver Age glory - Fing Fang Foom, lizard hands and all - just to... what, to prove a point? When Silver Age Mandarin has been deemed too "comic booky" for even today's comics, you think that he needs to be used in that incarnation in the movies?

Actually the Silver Age Mandarin was a fairly gritty character by the standards of the time. The rings were mostly downplayed back then. The Mandarin was dangerous mostly because he would do things like steal missiles as part of a plot to start World War III. When in single combat, he would mostly do things like freeezing Iron Man's boot-jets to get him off-balance, and then brutality martial art the crap out of him. The rings were fairly weak and used the way throwing dirt in the other guys eyes is used in martial arts movies.

It was actually mostly in the eighties and nineties that you got crap where he ran around in a green dress and the rings were retconned into being these godlike wizardish spellcasting-analogue weapons and you got crap like him summoning Fin Fang Foom instead of performing industrial and political sabotage.

The eighties and nineties really ruined the character, turning a relatively gritty(for the Silver Age) martial arts villain/geo-political-chaos villian into an evil Merlin.

The Knaufs story was very retro in way, going back to the idea of Mandarin as a gritty creator of global chaos and martial art villain with the rings as a distant tertiary aspect.

In any case, I think it has become very clear that Mandarin is best when the rings are NOT treated as a big deal, NOT treated as something that effectively makes him a wizard, and are really little more than a fancy way of throwing dirt in the other guy's eyes before Mandarin goes kung fu Joe Pesci on his foe.

 

[Rich Santoro]

^ I agree with this in principle. The characters, the stories, the performances are what is gonna make any character work. Obadiah Stane was absolutely awesome, because Bridges played him so damn good... Ironmonger wasn't the feature, it was the guy who wanted to use that power for nefarious ends. Green Goblins gizmos were just a cool way for the psychotic villain to impose his madness.

I want the rings to be handled in a way that highlights them as meaningful and capable of countering IMs tech... but it really has to be about Mandarin as a villain... who he is and what he is motivated to do. The rings are a means to an end, not the end themselves.

 

[kedrell]

^Great post! I completely agree.

 

[The Caped Knight]

The Mandarin is the leader of the criminal organization know as "The 10 Rings". Divided in ten guilds, each led by one of his generals, the Mandarin's criminal empire extents for every sector of the world's infrastructure. He practically rules the world in secret. Many believe he's a urban legend. No one who came face to face with him lived to tell the story. But he's very real. And, armed with ten technological rings of great power, he's practically invisible. A direct descendant of Genghis Khan, the Mandarin is a tactical genius, yet to be discovered by anyone. There is only one man able to make a stand against him: Tony Stark, the Iron Man.

That sounds like a very accurate description that totally remains true to the character of The Mandarin.

 

[Rich Santoro]

I would like to see the setup for Mandarin, something like this:

Have a scene with Stark and Hammer talking...

"You know Tony... it is an arms race to the end. Whether you are selling them, or trying to stop me from selling them... all we have is the process of trying to one up each other. You know the game... You were the best player. Now... I have to say that I find this new found nobility tiresome and somewhat misplaced. Look at you. Your gonna save the world??? With what??? More weapons... The best weapons yet, I might add. And you have to have known, that once we all saw what you have made, we would be right on your heels. You gonna stop progress Tony??? You gonna stop the world from turning??? Well, I am here to tell you that there is nothing that any of us can do to stop it... even if we wanted. There are things happenning that leave us no option but to find our own little place in the future. Really... you should see some of the things that my associate can do. It really is breath-taking. So com'on Tony... let's not waist each others time and resources, with all this... 'fighting'. That is for everyone else... and we don't want to fall behind... even the great Tony Stark could fall behind what's coming."

This is premised on the notion that Hammer has a relationship with Mandarin... which may not be the case... Also, the very brief clips I have seen of Rockwell's Justin Hammer, make it look like he is more the arms dealer, rather than manufacturer, ala Stark Industries.

So... anyway... I felt like it would be a good foreshadowing...

 

[Iron_Stark]

That sounds like a very accurate description that totally remains true to the character of The Mandarin.

Mandarin with his terracotta army would be all kinds of awesomeness, add in Ultimo and Fin Fang Foom and I'd be in Heaven.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

Iron Man: Viva Las Vegas had an AMAZING Fin Fam Foom!