How many of you are actually going to vote this November?

[Tron5000]

Here's a better question: If you are not actually going to vote this November, then why are you wasting your and our time in this forum? If you're not going to cast your vote, then save the discussion for the people who are. If you don't vote, you can't ***** or revel in your joy on Inauguration Day. If you did nothing to put that person in the presidency or to prevent them from getting there, you don't have a leg to stand on. No vote = no voice, as far as I'm concerned.

It's amazing how often (I work in the service industry) I hear people complain about President Bush. I generally say, "So I guess you voted for Kerry in 04."

The response is often, "Well, I didn't vote."

"Then ****."

 

[Matt]

You can't be in the middle on everything, Matt Kerry tried too hard to appeal to everyone, which is impossible.

And having a voting record more liberal than the socialist in Congress isn't even trying to act like you are moderate.

That's a joke, coming from a guy who obviously dislikes Obama on a personal level, going back months and months now.

Personal level? I was unaware that pointing out the many ways I disagree with his policy positions is having a personal vendetta? I'm sorry for not being a blind sheep.

Thats true, Matt. You do come off as if you'll always dislike Obama, even he achieves world peace, gets a worldwide ban on nukes, and solves world hunger; you'd be the one trying to discredit him

And you've confessed to knowing nothing about politics and voting for Obama strictly on the grounds that he is black. No matter what you have learned about politics from that point on, the entire foundation of your support is that he is black. Everything you've learned since then, has been based on the biased opinion "Yay! I support the black guy." Therefore any comments about biases from you of all people are moot.

Furthermore, if Obama did get a nuke ban and try to get rid of our arsenal, you're damn right I would take issue with this. Mutually assured destruction is the only real protection this world has from nuclear war. Treaties are as valuable as the paper they are signed on. However, Obama does seem like the naive type who would take states like Iran and NK at their word and disarm our nuke supply simply cause they say "We won't build them."

 

[kainedamo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqoEr2f7Vck

Paraphrasing some quotes here.

"I support the Patriot Act, I don't like how it's applied"

"I supported action against Iraq, not how it was implimented"

Kerry states the right war was in Afghanistan and Osama Bin Laden accusing Bush of taking his eye off the ball, but Kerry supported the war in Iraq.

"If we have to get tough with Iran we will get tough", sounding like every other politician besides Obama who actually has something different.

Kerry was similar when talking about domestic issues too. "Gay marriage? I don't dislike gays, but..." constantly, constantly going for the middle no matter what the issue.

 

[kainedamo]

And having a voting record more liberal than the socialist in Congress isn't even trying to act like you are moderate.

In a country where anything just slightly to the left of Ghengis Khan is considered controversial or too liberal, it's not surprising to me people think Obama is a crazy socialist.

Personal level? I was unaware that pointing out the many ways I disagree with his policy positions is having a personal vendetta? I'm sorry for not being a blind sheep.

Well it's just a personal observation from how you post. It just seems that the slightest controversy about Obama, you're all over it.

And you've confessed to knowing nothing about politics and voting for Obama strictly on the grounds that he is black. No matter what you have learned about politics from that point on, the entire foundation of your support is that he is black. Everything you've learned since then, has been based on the biased opinion "Yay! I support the black guy." Therefore any comments about biases from you of all people are moot.

I have never said anything remotely like that. Care to find a quote?

Furthermore, if Obama did get a nuke ban and try to get rid of our arsenal, you're damn right I would take issue with this. Mutually assured destruction is the only real protection this world has from nuclear war. Treaties are as valuable as the paper they are signed on. However, Obama does seem like the naive type who would take states like Iran and NK at their word and disarm our nuke supply simply cause they say "We won't build them."

How can you expect other countries to disarm nuclear weapons if your own nation continues to build them?

The idea of 'mutually assured destruction' as protection is lunacy. The idea that 'no country would be crazy enough to try' is false. All you need is one leader of a country that believes the risk is worth it.

For example, look at how bitterly the Russians fought in World War II. Those crazy bastards sacraficed a lot of lives.

The right psychological mindset of one leader in one country is all it takes for nukes to fly. I don't sit comfortably with that idea.

 

[Tron5000]

In a country where anything just slightly to the left of Ghengis Khan is considered controversial or too liberal, it's not surprising to me people think Obama is a crazy socialist.

I didn't know that Genghis Khan was a centrist. Interesting.

Do you watch TV? Do you see how liberal this country has become? And you're insinuating that Americans think that anyone to the left of center is a "crazy socialist"?

No, people think Obama's a crazy Socialist because he espouses Socialist dogma. Because he has always leaned toward Socialism and Marxism. That's why people think he's a crazy Socialist. Because he is, not because he doesn't eat apple pie while watching a baseball game.

 

[kainedamo]

I didn't know that Genghis Khan was a centrist. Interesting.

Do you watch TV? Do you see how liberal this country has become?

Oh noes. Examples?

And you're insinuating that Americans think that anyone to the left of center is a "crazy socialist"?

Not all Americans.

No, people think Obama's a crazy Socialist because he espouses Socialist dogma. Because he has always leaned toward Socialism and Marxism. That's why people think he's a crazy Socialist. Because he is, not because he doesn't eat apple pie while watching a baseball game.

What in your view is the "socialist dogma" he espouses? Diplomacy perhaps?

 

[Tron5000]

Oh noes. Examples?



Not all Americans.



What in your view is the "socialist dogma" he espouses? Diplomacy perhaps?

Examples: LOGO (gay & lesbian network), The View, left-leaning MSM (CBS, ABC, NBC, CNN, MSNBC), Denis Leary's character raping his wife on "Rescue Me"...don't think it's the Christian Right putting this stuff out there.

Taking from those who have achieved and giving it to others (i.e. taxing the rich in a wealth-transfer scheme). Does the phrase "from one according to one's ability, to one according to one's need" mean anything to you?

Have you read any of his work from his time as editor of the Harvard Law Review? Please do. You want your Socialism? You'll find it.

 

[Matt]

In a country where anything just slightly to the left of Ghengis Khan is considered controversial or too liberal, it's not surprising to me people think Obama is a crazy socialist.

Not really. Having a more liberal voting record than a socialist does make you more liberal than a socialist. Not really seeing how that can be debated.

Well it's just a personal observation from how you post. It just seems that the slightest controversy about Obama, you're all over it.

Because we are discussing a candidate who is currently in the spot light. Of course I am going to discuss controversies.

I have never said anything remotely like that. Care to find a quote?

I quoted Excel, not you. Pay attention.

How can you expect other countries to disarm nuclear weapons if your own nation continues to build them?

The idea of 'mutually assured destruction' as protection is lunacy. The idea that 'no country would be crazy enough to try' is false. All you need is one leader of a country that believes the risk is worth it.

For example, look at how bitterly the Russians fought in World War II. Those crazy bastards sacraficed a lot of lives.

The right psychological mindset of one leader in one country is all it takes for nukes to fly. I don't sit comfortably with that idea.

[/quote]

Which is why second strike capability is also a neccessity to MAD. To simply assume disarming will make everyone join hands and start singing is incredibly naive.

 

[Handsome Rob]

The Republicans haven't done too well over the last few years. What do you think the Republicans can do for you with a third term?

I don't vote "Republican" or "Democrat." I vote for the candidate who most closely espouses the conservative beliefs that I have AND who has a good chance of actually winning. If there were a conservative Democrat who was more in line with me than the Republican opponent, I'd vote for the Democrat.

But, there isn't. I have a moderate Republican running against two liberal Democrats. Why would I possibly want to vote for either liberal?

 

[Handsome Rob]

many Conservatives believe Liberals would do far worse. that if they had voted in gore or Kerry, we would be worse off.

Spot on, Zen!

President Gore. President Kerry. *shivers*

 

[Tag279]

What exactly is the conservative line?

Be Anti-Abortion but if a young lady becomes pregnant she does not deserve assistance from the government.

Be willing to pass legislation that tells people that they cannot marry or couple with who they wish.

Be in support of a piece of legislation that suspends due process.

Speak out about Christian principles and freedom of religion but regard anyone who identifies themselves as a muslim as a terrorist.

Talk about how bad it is to pay taxes and want to cut spending for social programs but use those same tax dollars to rebuild another country when parts of our Gulf Coast is still in ruins.

Wave the flag and talk about freedom of speech and rail against NOT making statements that are upsetting and hurtful to a given demographic of American Citizens and loudly assert that being PC has gone too far...and yet vilify marginalize and dismiss individuals that don't think the same way that you do.

verry verry interesting...

 

[Handsome Rob]

What exactly is the conservative line?

Be Anti-Abortion but if a young lady becomes pregnant she does not deserve assistance from the government.

Be willing to pass legislation that tells people that they cannot marry or couple with who they wish.

Be in support of a piece of legislation that suspends due process.

Speak out about Christian principles and freedom of religion but regard anyone who identifies themselves as a muslim as a terrorist.

Talk about how bad it is to pay taxes and want to cut spending for social programs but use those same tax dollars to rebuild another country when parts of our Gulf Coast is still in ruins.

Wave the flag and talk about freedom of speech and rail against NOT making statements that are upsetting and hurtful to a given demographic of American Citizens and loudly assert that being PC has gone too far...and yet vilify marginalize and dismiss individuals that don't think the same way that you do.

verry verry interesting...

Maybe you should ask what a conservative like me believes before jumping to (wrong) conclusions about those beliefs.

 

[souvlaki]

Thats true, Matt. You do come off as if you'll always dislike Obama, even he achieves world peace, gets a worldwide ban on nukes, and solves world hunger; you'd be the one trying to discredit him

I don't know if that's necessarily true. Matt definitely dislikes Obama, and at this point in time, yeah, I don't think there is a thing Obama could do that would impress him because in many ways Obama is unproven. But if Obama became President, and actually did a good job, and proved he could follow through on his promises, I think Matt would come around. He may hate Obama now, but unless I'm completely mistaken, he's still more or less a Democrat. He's just extremely skeptical, and pessimistic when it comes to Obama.

That's okay. I'm somewhat confident Matt will come around eventually if Obama is elected. If I wasn't confident of that, I wouldn't be voting for the guy.

 

[souvlaki]

I don't vote "Republican" or "Democrat." I vote for the candidate who most closely espouses the conservative beliefs that I have AND who has a good chance of actually winning. If there were a conservative Democrat who was more in line with me than the Republican opponent, I'd vote for the Democrat.

But, there isn't. I have a moderate Republican running against two liberal Democrats. Why would I possibly want to vote for either liberal?

Vote Libertarian. They are truer to Republican ideals than any Republican that has run in the last 20 years. Unless you are a social conservative, in which case, yeah... your options suck.

 

[SuperFerret]

Here's a better question: If you are not actually going to vote this November, then why are you wasting your and our time in this forum? If you're not going to cast your vote, then save the discussion for the people who are. If you don't vote, you can't ***** or revel in your joy on Inauguration Day. If you did nothing to put that person in the presidency or to prevent them from getting there, you don't have a leg to stand on. No vote = no voice, as far as I'm concerned.

It's amazing how often (I work in the service industry) I hear people complain about President Bush. I generally say, "So I guess you voted for Kerry in 04."

The response is often, "Well, I didn't vote."

"Then ****."

Ah, this old argument, still trying to shut people up when they voice their opinions. It matters not who you vote for, whether it be Democrat, Republican or nobody, what matters is that you're voicing your opinion. If your opinion is that all the options that we're given are terrible then boycotting the election is a way of stating "Hey! We're not happy with this crap! Change something!"

So ****.

 

[Marx]

many Conservatives believe Liberals would do far worse. that if they had voted in gore or Kerry, we would be worse off.

Because the Conservatives have done so great over the last eight years right? Saying that a Gore or Kerry administration would have been worse is laughable.

You can't be in the middle on everything, Matt Kerry tried too hard to appeal to everyone, which is impossible.

And what exactly would you say that Obama is trying so hard to do? I believe it's the exact same thing.

That's a joke, coming from a guy who obviously dislikes Obama on a personal level, going back months and months now.

What is a joke is you believing that someone stating their discontent for a candidate's platform (or lack there of,) etc. equates to a personal vendetta.

 

[Darthphere]

Here's a better question: If you are not actually going to vote this November, then why are you wasting your and our time in this forum? If you're not going to cast your vote, then save the discussion for the people who are. If you don't vote, you can't ***** or revel in your joy on Inauguration Day. If you did nothing to put that person in the presidency or to prevent them from getting there, you don't have a leg to stand on. No vote = no voice, as far as I'm concerned.

It's amazing how often (I work in the service industry) I hear people complain about President Bush. I generally say, "So I guess you voted for Kerry in 04."

The response is often, "Well, I didn't vote."

"Then ****."

Freedom of Speech?

 

[Matt]

I don't know if that's necessarily true. Matt definitely dislikes Obama, and at this point in time, yeah, I don't think there is a thing Obama could do that would impress him because in many ways Obama is unproven. But if Obama became President, and actually did a good job, and proved he could follow through on his promises, I think Matt would come around. He may hate Obama now, but unless I'm completely mistaken, he's still more or less a Democrat. He's just extremely skeptical, and pessimistic when it comes to Obama.

That's okay. I'm somewhat confident Matt will come around eventually if Obama is elected. If I wasn't confident of that, I wouldn't be voting for the guy.

If Obama is elected, I will give him a chance. I'm not going to vote for him in this election however. I simply cannot in good conscience vote for a man with no experience, a vague, impractical platform, who has run a campaign on skin color and charisma simply because he has a D by his name. If he is elected, yes, I will give him a chance.

 

[Tag279]

Maybe you should ask what a conservative like me believes before jumping to (wrong) conclusions about those beliefs.

I apologize if I came across as hostile. What do you belive as a conservative.

 

[Handsome Rob]

I apologize if I came across as hostile. What do you belive as a conservative.

No problems, man. I've been guilty myself of doing the same thing. Tell you what--when I have some time (which won't be today), I'll address those original points on the post I responded to.

 

[Tag279]

No problems, man. I've been guilty myself of doing the same thing. Tell you what--when I have some time (which won't be today), I'll address those original points on the post I responded to.

I look forward to it.

 

[Tron5000]

What exactly is the conservative line?

Be Anti-Abortion but if a young lady becomes pregnant she does not deserve assistance from the government.

Be willing to pass legislation that tells people that they cannot marry or couple with who they wish.

Be in support of a piece of legislation that suspends due process.

Speak out about Christian principles and freedom of religion but regard anyone who identifies themselves as a muslim as a terrorist.

Talk about how bad it is to pay taxes and want to cut spending for social programs but use those same tax dollars to rebuild another country when parts of our Gulf Coast is still in ruins.

Wave the flag and talk about freedom of speech and rail against NOT making statements that are upsetting and hurtful to a given demographic of American Citizens and loudly assert that being PC has gone too far...and yet vilify marginalize and dismiss individuals that don't think the same way that you do.

verry verry interesting...

Why does someone deserve assistance from the government if they make the decision to have sex, and such decision results in one becoming pregnant? How is that the responsibility of the government and taxpayers?

There is already legislation prohibiting people from marrying whoever they choose. You can't have more than 1 wife, you can't marry children, and you can't marry a close relative. This legislation has been supported by Republicans and Democrats.

Due process only applies to those covered under our Constitution, i.e. American citizens.

So you think Republicans (or Christians) view all Muslims as terrorists? Way off base there. They view people ewho cause terror as terrorists. Just so happens that most terrorists are Muslim. Do you see the correlation?

Being PC has gone too far because it shouts down and drowns out any non-PC speech. This is known as oppression.

Very interesting.

 

[kainedamo]

And what exactly would you say that Obama is trying so hard to do? I believe it's the exact same thing.

Not really. Obama is definately a liberal, there's no mistake about it.

 

[Tron5000]

Not really. Obama is definately a liberal, there's no mistake about it.

Rated the most liberal member of the Senate. Yep, that's pretty liberal.

 

[kainedamo]

Yeah. Dude takes a stance.