How much does "fanboyism" affect editors and writers decision making?

[lowly marvelite]

So? Thoughts?

 

[Ikaris-Eternal]

don't understand question

 

[bryanss3]

do you mean the writer/editor's personal fanboyism effects on writing? or writers doing specific things in stories to cater to the fanboys?

 

[Manic]

do you mean the writer/editor's personal fanboyism effects on writing? or writers doing specific things in stories to cater to the fanboys?

That's what I was wondering.

 

[Dread]

I think it depends on the writers/editors in question. Passion is usually something that flows in the industry, or at least ideally. Many editors and writers have their own personal biases, favorite characters/stories, things they would like to see happen or even make happen, and so forth.

Joe Q easily has had his "axes to grind" moments as EIC. He hated the Parker marriage, so it is gone (despite him literally reviving it in the early years of his tenure in 2001 or so when Mackie had left ASM by essentially all but shattering it). He thought there were "too many mutants" and M-Day was probably largely planned or suggested by him. His complaining about Speedball has likely helped spark Jenkins turning him into the poster child for overcompensating emo sado-masochism in comics. And he has spoken out at times about his disdain for magical or space characters in comics.

But, he has relaxed some of those. It took a while, but under Joe Q's tenure, the Marvel space territory has been the best it's ever been, probably better. Likely because he knows when to sit back and trust people.

Many writers wear their hearts on their sleeves sometimes. Bendis usually does, for better or worse. Dan Slott can, although he also loves maintaining continuity. While when they do something that one doesn't like, it can be annoying, but without a little passion, comic writing just becomes a job, and that can get dull.

To be honest, I think fanboyism isn't as rampant in Marvel editorial in 2009 as it is in DC's.

Unless of course it comes to who should win against battles with Hulk or Wolverine.

 

[lowly marvelite]

I think it depends on the writers/editors in question. Passion is usually something that flows in the industry, or at least ideally. Many editors and writers have their own personal biases, favorite characters/stories, things they would like to see happen or even make happen, and so forth.

Joe Q easily has had his "axes to grind" moments as EIC. He hated the Parker marriage, so it is gone (despite him literally reviving it in the early years of his tenure in 2001 or so when Mackie had left ASM by essentially all but shattering it). He thought there were "too many mutants" and M-Day was probably largely planned or suggested by him. His complaining about Speedball has likely helped spark Jenkins turning him into the poster child for overcompensating emo sado-masochism in comics. And he has spoken out at times about his disdain for magical or space characters in comics.



But, he has relaxed some of those. It took a while, but under Joe Q's tenure, the Marvel space territory has been the best it's ever been, probably better. Likely because he knows when to sit back and trust people.

Many writers wear their hearts on their sleeves sometimes. Bendis usually does, for better or worse. Dan Slott can, although he also loves maintaining continuity. While when they do something that one doesn't like, it can be annoying, but without a little passion, comic writing just becomes a job, and that can get dull.

To be honest, I think fanboyism isn't as rampant in Marvel editorial in 2009 as it is in DC's.

Unless of course it comes to who should win against battles with Hulk or Wolverine.

What about guys like Breevort and Busiek, paricularly where Marvel/DC crossovers are concerned?

 

[sdc10]

I think it depends on the writers/editors in question. Passion is usually something that flows in the industry, or at least ideally. Many editors and writers have their own personal biases, favorite characters/stories, things they would like to see happen or even make happen, and so forth.

Joe Q easily has had his "axes to grind" moments as EIC. He hated the Parker marriage, so it is gone (despite him literally reviving it in the early years of his tenure in 2001 or so when Mackie had left ASM by essentially all but shattering it). He thought there were "too many mutants" and M-Day was probably largely planned or suggested by him. His complaining about Speedball has likely helped spark Jenkins turning him into the poster child for overcompensating emo sado-masochism in comics. And he has spoken out at times about his disdain for magical or space characters in comics.

But, he has relaxed some of those. It took a while, but under Joe Q's tenure, the Marvel space territory has been the best it's ever been, probably better. Likely because he knows when to sit back and trust people.

Many writers wear their hearts on their sleeves sometimes. Bendis usually does, for better or worse. Dan Slott can, although he also loves maintaining continuity. While when they do something that one doesn't like, it can be annoying, but without a little passion, comic writing just becomes a job, and that can get dull.

To be honest, I think fanboyism isn't as rampant in Marvel editorial in 2009 as it is in DC's.

Unless of course it comes to who should win against battles with Hulk or Wolverine.

All good points, Quesada sometimes catches a lot of crap but people have to remember before he became EIC Marvel was teetering towards bankruptcy a lot of things he and other did really helped in the long run. I also totally agree with you on the marvel/dc front. Its evident on the fact that Marvel is much more accessible I think to new readers than DC is with a few exceptions.

 

[Specter313]

I think it depends on the writers/editors in question. Passion is usually something that flows in the industry, or at least ideally. Many editors and writers have their own personal biases, favorite characters/stories, things they would like to see happen or even make happen, and so forth.

Joe Q easily has had his "axes to grind" moments as EIC. He hated the Parker marriage, so it is gone (despite him literally reviving it in the early years of his tenure in 2001 or so when Mackie had left ASM by essentially all but shattering it). He thought there were "too many mutants" and M-Day was probably largely planned or suggested by him. His complaining about Speedball has likely helped spark Jenkins turning him into the poster child for overcompensating emo sado-masochism in comics. And he has spoken out at times about his disdain for magical or space characters in comics.

But, he has relaxed some of those. It took a while, but under Joe Q's tenure, the Marvel space territory has been the best it's ever been, probably better. Likely because he knows when to sit back and trust people.

Many writers wear their hearts on their sleeves sometimes. Bendis usually does, for better or worse. Dan Slott can, although he also loves maintaining continuity. While when they do something that one doesn't like, it can be annoying, but without a little passion, comic writing just becomes a job, and that can get dull.

To be honest, I think fanboyism isn't as rampant in Marvel editorial in 2009 as it is in DC's.

Unless of course it comes to who should win against battles with Hulk or Wolverine.

Dan even touched on this when he came to the last Baltimore Comic-Con. I remember him saying that he would let a lot of reader opinions get to him while he was still doing She-Hulk. He'd see some people say that there wasn't enough action, and he'd try to fix that, then see people say that there wasn't enough of the lawyer side being shown, and then try to fix that, and it all led to some of his least favorite books of that series that he wrote by trying to please everyone. I believe he said that it helped him to learn to stick more with his gut because you can't please everyone. I'm sure there's a more detailed report in articles about the "Marvel: Your Universe" online somewhere.

 

[Anubis]

What about guys like Breevort and Busiek, paricularly where Marvel/DC crossovers are concerned?

Yup, there we go. I figured that's what the real purpose of this thread was all about.

 

[Phenomenal]

paricularly where Marvel/DC crossovers are concerned?

This.^^

Especially Venom smashing Superman in all-access.

 

[lowly marvelite]

Yup, there we go. I figured that's what the real purpose of this thread was all about.

Oh yeah....I went there.

 

[Dread]

What about guys like Breevort and Busiek, paricularly where Marvel/DC crossovers are concerned?

"Comic Fights", especially between superheroes, are always a bit of a quagmire. Ideally, every writer who is tasked or chooses to do these in a story would have an idea of the powers, strengths, weaknesses, and perspectives of the heroes involved and come to a rational judgment about who would win in such a battle. The reality, though, is that popularity rules, and that many times this will be one of those things that is the heaviest heart on a fanboy sleeve, even some writers.

Hey, I'll bite. Back when I was a Wolverine fanboy, pretty much from age 12-13 to about 19, I was in the camp that usually figured that he could and should beat Spider-Man in a fight more often than not. I would debate on this sort of thing at WIZARDWORLD's old forums in 2000. And I would bring up all sorts of past moments even though looking back they were kind of bunk. Years later, though, with less Logan lovin' in my heart and with a more objective stance on "comic fights", I often concede that all things being equal, Spider-Man should win. And I have tried to apply that to rare debates when they come up.

But, hey, if I was a writer on a comic book, I might be tempted to have a character I liked "beat" another to look cool. If I was paid a few grand to write an IRON FIST story, I'd probably set up a rematch with Sabretooth (via flashback if I had to), and guess who'd win?

My answer is, it would be nice if writers were a little more objective in declaring the winners of some hero vs. hero brawls, but expecting that is probably as likely as expecting that from most of us fans.

All good points, Quesada sometimes catches a lot of crap but people have to remember before he became EIC Marvel was teetering towards bankruptcy a lot of things he and other did really helped in the long run. I also totally agree with you on the marvel/dc front. Its evident on the fact that Marvel is much more accessible I think to new readers than DC is with a few exceptions.

Honestly I think the major difference between the EIC styles of Joe Q and Dan DiDio is that Joe Q knows when to back off while Dan doesn't, and while both have double-talking, huckster moments, as well as moments where one seriously has to wonder if they take some in their customer base for suckers, Dan seems more willing to risk alienating fans who are below 30 by catering to certain characters and nostalgia revisions, and Joe Q isn't. At least in areas beyond Spider-Man. Joe Q was willing to put aside his own opinions against "space comics" to end up drafting the greatest few years of space comics Marvel has ever had, which has been rewarded by critical acclaim and a small but dedicated audience, the sort of "cult classic" that usually recoops cash in trade sales. Hell, WAR OF KINGS #1 had a damn good launch, nearly 60k I think. To me that is an incredible accomplishment. DiDio, at least from vibes one gets around the 'net, seems to be more wishy washy while less capable of objective stances in how he runs things; he liked Barry Allen so he is back; he liked Hal so now Hal is perfect, and so on.

The fact that a lot of big name creators have either left or been fired from DC and have hardly been too thrilled with DiDio's tenure in interviews lately speaks volumes. Even Mark Waid, who recently had a lot of arrows in a recent interview, vented his Marvel anger at Bill Jemas, not Joe Q. In fact there is a part of me that does believe Joe Q is "a nice guy to work with", almost to a fault since deadlines have gotten a bit loose during his tenure. Three year late books and all.

Dan even touched on this when he came to the last Baltimore Comic-Con. I remember him saying that he would let a lot of reader opinions get to him while he was still doing She-Hulk. He'd see some people say that there wasn't enough action, and he'd try to fix that, then see people say that there wasn't enough of the lawyer side being shown, and then try to fix that, and it all led to some of his least favorite books of that series that he wrote by trying to please everyone. I believe he said that it helped him to learn to stick more with his gut because you can't please everyone. I'm sure there's a more detailed report in articles about the "Marvel: Your Universe" online somewhere.

Heh, I can imagine Dan having a dynamic like that, trying to please everyone with a comic and being run ragged. Hell, I haven't successfully finished a fan fiction in about 5-6 years and half of that is because I fanboy nitpick MYSELF to death.

Still, though, he's got that mix of still having that connection to fanboyism yet still is willing to take some risks while compromising with it, which is probably why I like his work and why a lot of others do. If he does something risky, he usually has a well detailed and thought out explanation with some past continuity behind it, rather than some writers who give a "tut tut, I know better, just trust me" kind of reply.

My point was that saying, "writers/editors shouldn't be fanboys" would be an unfair and impossible condition. You need that passion to remain in the biz doing good work. The ideal, though is for many of those heads to at least be able to mix in some objective reasoning to make and defend decisions and positions. "Hulk can beat Thor because he's the strongest ever" is a flat argument, whether that is from HulkFan2009 or Jeph Loeb.

(I just picked that name out of thin air. If there really is a HulkFan2009 on SHH, howdy, and it was random chance that drug you into this. Sorry, man.)

 

[Anubis]

Oh yeah....I went there.

Dude, you are soooo one note. Every post you have ever had here is some Marvel vs DC bulls**t. For a second there, I thought, hey, maybe he might have something to say, but nope. You went there. Same place you always go.

 

[Brainiac 8]

"Comic Fights", especially between superheroes, are always a bit of a quagmire. Ideally, every writer who is tasked or chooses to do these in a story would have an idea of the powers, strengths, weaknesses, and perspectives of the heroes involved and come to a rational judgment about who would win in such a battle. The reality, though, is that popularity rules, and that many times this will be one of those things that is the heaviest heart on a fanboy sleeve, even some writers. But, hey, if I was a writer on a comic book, I might be tempted to have a character I liked "beat" another to look cool. If I was paid a few grand to write an IRON FIST story, I'd probably set up a rematch with Sabretooth (via flashback if I had to), and guess who'd win?

That big Marvel vs. DC crossover several years back was nothing but one huge biased fan voted contest. Things that didn't make sense happened: such as Spider-Man beating Conner...which wouldn't happen. Or Storm besting Wonder Woman...which is so absurd I can't even fathom how they allowed that to happen.

The reality, though, is that popularity rules, and that many times this will be one of those things that is the heaviest heart on a fanboy sleeve, even some writers.

*coughBlackPanthercoughbeatingSilverSurferBScough*

 

[Ace of Knaves]

This.^^

Especially Venom smashing Superman in all-access.

For real? That's ludicrous.

I think a great example of writers catering to popularity is Hulk being written waaaaaayyy over the top on occasions.

Or Wolverines healing sometimes being written stupidly.

 

[BlackLantern]

Id say its character specific....characters like Wolverine and Batman always get blown by writers...look at the uproar when GL punched Batman and how Johns got made a pariah for that...."How dare anyone touch the Batgod??!!"

 

[Brainiac 8]

Like when he healed from being burned to nothing but bones during Civil War. What do you mean, that made total sense.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Precisely. didn't Logan once fully regenerate from a finger nail or something absolutely insane like that?

 

[Brainiac 8]

From a drop of blood...but that was magically induced, or at least that was the excuse they used for it.

 

[Manic]

A single drop of blood. True story.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

:facepalm

 

[lowly marvelite]

Dude, you are soooo one note. Every post you have ever had here is some Marvel vs DC bulls**t. For a second there, I thought, hey, maybe he might have something to say, but nope. You went there. Same place you always go.

If you'll notice, there were a number of replies to my thread. You seem to be the only one with a problem. Why not ignore it if you are bothered by it. That's what I usually do. I see somehting that doesn't interest me, I move on to the next one.

 

[Dread]

That big Marvel vs. DC crossover several years back was nothing but one huge biased fan voted contest. Things that didn't make sense happened: such as Spider-Man beating Conner...which wouldn't happen. Or Storm besting Wonder Woman...which is so absurd I can't even fathom how they allowed that to happen.



*coughBlackPanthercoughbeatingSilverSurferBScough*

To be fair, Storm and Wonder Woman had a brief rematch in ALL ACCESS, and Diana was clearly overwhelming Ororo without much challenge before deciding, diplomatically, to end their fight and unite against the common threat (while the rest of their teams were busy punching each other). And hey, while she did lose to Storm via fan vote, Diana was apparently considered worthy for Thor's hammer.

That was before she killed Max Lord, though.

This.^^

Especially Venom smashing Superman in all-access.

Indeed, that was a bit ridiculous. Granted, ALL-ACCESS #1 shipped when Venom was still in the middle of his fame as a "lethal protector" and thus he'd been allowed decent showings against all number of enemies in his various mini's, including the Juggernaut. But, yeah, he was literally punching Superman across city blocks and nearly strangling him with his symbiote. It was far fetched and I was a Venom fan back then, and I thought it was too much.

 

[Manic]

Diana was apparently considered worthy for Thor's hammer.

That was before she killed Max Lord, though.

Somehow, I think she'd still be worthy to pick up Thor's hammer. Killing someone doesn't exactly disqualify you. Thor kills frost giants for breakfast and recently killed his own grandfather. Captain America can pick it up, and he more than likely killed many a Nazi in his heyday.

Wonder Woman snapped the neck of a murderous maniac who was on the verge of destroying the world. I'm sure she'll be fine.

 

[Dread]

I deliberately didn't say that I felt Diana killing Max Lord would have made her unworthy of the hammer now because I don't feel that way. She'd probably be fine, if they ever had another crossover. Norse gods understand the realities of war.