How would historical figures react to their place in history?

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of condeming a man for killing evil thugs while honoring people who killed over a hundred thousand innocent people.
But you don't point out the hypocrisy for condemning Bush but not condemning Che. Is that hypocrisy of pointing out hypocrisy:huh:

2,000 people, huh? Where did you get that number?
Where did you get 175?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cuba
http://books.google.com/books?id=0e...wBQ#v=onepage&q=che formation of UMAP&f=false
It is called UMAP...look it up. It's funny how Che patrons leave that stuff out. Doesn't that sound familiar to the GULAG in Russia? Oh yeah, Che loved Stalin. Also, here is another race quotes since you think he changed:
Che: A Revolutionary Life page 92 said:
“We're going to do for blacks exactly what blacks did for the [Cuban] revolution. By which I mean: nothing.”

How was he a terrorist?
Did he attack American civilians or did he simply try to defeat America's puppet governments/dictatorships to help the poor.
How was Che not a terrorist? He hated the US. He wanted to destroy us. He despised everything about this country. If he had a nuclear bomb, he would have pressed the button. Read his quotes. His disdain for capitalism ran through to the deepest point of his soul. Now who else does that sound like? He had just helped take over his country from the previous regime...do you think he would have started attacking us at the same time? We weren't being bugged by the Taliban while they were taking over Afghanistan. Keep in mind that some people love the Taliban for what they did for them. Some people loved Saddam. Some people love Che. But it is odd to me that you don't see Saddam or Osama shirts.
 
But you don't point out the hypocrisy for condemning Bush but not condemning Che. Is that hypocrisy of pointing out hypocrisy:huh:

You're right Bush never harmed anyone. Oh wait, over 80,000 civilian deaths from the Iraq War alone.


Where did you get 175?

"Although the exact numbers differ, it is estimated that several hundred people were executed nationwide during this time, with Guevara's jurisdictional death total at La Cabaña ranging from 55 to 164."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#cite_note-102


So Che said he'd never do anything to help blacks then he goes to Africa and fights side by side with blacks. Plus his speech to the UN when he brings attention to the evils of apartheid and southern segregation in the US.

and the labor camps were wrong but they were closed by Fidel after international protest.

How was Che not a terrorist? He hated the US. He wanted to destroy us. He despised everything about this country. If he had a nuclear bomb, he would have pressed the button. Read his quotes. His disdain for capitalism ran through to the deepest point of his soul. Now who else does that sound like? He had just helped take over his country from the previous regime...do you think he would have started attacking us at the same time? We weren't being bugged by the Taliban while they were taking over Afghanistan. Keep in mind that some people love the Taliban for what they did for them. Some people loved Saddam. Some people love Che. But it is odd to me that you don't see Saddam or Osama shirts.
Anti-imperialist rhetoric doesn't make you a terrorist. Especially after an American backed dictator tortures and kills 20,000 Cubans. That would make anyone cynical about American influence.
 
You're right Bush never harmed anyone. Oh wait, over 80,000 civilian deaths from the Iraq War alone.
That wasn't as bad as FDR killing 500,000-1 million Japanese civilians :whatever:

"Although the exact numbers differ, it is estimated that several hundred people were executed nationwide during this time, with Guevara's jurisdictional death total at La Cabaña ranging from 55 to 164."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#cite_note-102

So with Bush, we attribute all civilian deaths from the Iraq War to him. But with Che, he's only pinned with the people he was directly responsible for killing. Gotcha.

and the labor camps were wrong but they were closed by Fidel after international protest.
Doesn't matter if they were closed. They were still opened and used.

Anti-imperialist rhetoric doesn't make you a terrorist. Especially after an American backed dictator tortures and kills 20,000 Cubans. That would make anyone cynical about American influence.
Wanting to nuke America does make you a terrorist.
 
How do you guys think all of the forgotten presidents would feel?
 
He was good, but I don't get the deification. You talk about improvisation, imagination, songwriting, live performances, recording techniques yet fail to realize that in all these areas Frank Zappa and Eddie Van Halen (and many others) did all of this and pioneered more than Jimi ever did. Even now people talk about recording the Van Halen way, or trying to replicate Eddy's "Brown sound" (the Frankenstein guitar that put a humbucker in a strat, the Floyd Rose bridge, the modded Marshall JCM 500s and later the Peavy 5150, the EBMM guitar, the Peavey Wolfgang guitar, etc). Or in areas of improvisation think about Zappa's skills, he recorded 3 separate albums live, unedited, completely improvised and they were released and were hits (You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore 1, 2 and 3). Or from a songwriting standpoint, Zappa wrote rock, pop, rap, metal, classical, avante guard, he was quite possibly the most versatile musician ever ... but he like Eddie didn't die young.

Buzz Feiten, the man who came up with the Buzz Feiten Tuning System for guitar, because as we all know the tuning system for guitar based upon Pythagoras's theory works, but not completely across the range of a stringed/fretted instrument where the scale length diminishes as you go down. It works for piano when introduced for piano Bach wrote The Well-Tempered Clavier to prove that a piano could be in tune across it's entire range. Buzz did the same for guitars, he's alive now, he's also one of the most in demand session players in the world playing literally on thousands of albums (if you've listened to the radio you have heard him). Yet I'm sure you and maybe most here have never heard of him, but if you want to talk about influence, him being the person who made guitars intonate across the whole fretboard is way more influential in itself than Jimi could ever be.

I get that people love Jimi, but it's as a result of his life and how he lived it mostly I think. As I said I can name scads of guitarists who are better, who made more of an impact on the industry but are not big names because they don't have that crazy life story.

sorry for the slight delay in replying, i started a reply yesterday and was getting really into it when i had a fuse box power cut when the washing machine ended and i lost the post, so here is another version of the same kind thing(slight return).


Ok, let's forget the pioneering aspect, you have the lowdown on inventions I do not have the ken on, I of course defer to your knowledge there, *but* on one aspect...I think Hendrix probably had just as much influence on every generation of guitarists as any, in as much as getting young kids excited by the possibilities of the instrument, picking one up in the first place and going nuts with it.
Eddie Van Halen would have been inspired by Jimi, no doubt, all those guys in their bedrooms would have watched Woodstock and Monteray(sic) and been blown away by his improv, showmanship and sheer vitality.

Now, as for his 'deification', man, it is not because he died young, he was a deity while he was alive, and that is down to the guy's power of imagination and the fact he played straight from the heart.
His songs are held in the same regard as the Beatles, Stones, Doors...all the heavy hitters of the mid to late 60s that blasted rock into the creative strastosphere that has enabled it to survive to this day.

See, Hendrix's 'deification' does not surprise me because the guy played straight from the heart and gut, every time, not in a self concious way like Zappa might, where every move he makes seems like a very clinical artistic approach. I don't know much of his stuff at all, but that is what it has always struck me as when i have heard it.
People respond to someone like that, their imagination and energy are infectious. And Hendrix had a very powerful imagination, he was very prolific, and gave it 100% every time onstage.
There was a reason that *one* live performance at the Monteray Pop Festival took him from being unknown in the states to being an overnight sensation, and why Pete Townsend of the who refused to go on stage after him(before he actaully played his set).

His life was not 'crazy', I have read that massive tome on his life 'Electric Gypsy', and for the most part it deals with him constantly touring, and when he is not touring he is trying to get it together with other musicians and recording, that's why there are craploads of posthumous albums, because he wrote and recorded stacks of stuff, all the time.
Other than that the craziest stuff it went into was with his over-controlling shady manger, Mike Jefferies, who was affiliated with the Mafia, the controversies surroiunding that and his death, with many vying for control of the estate.
Yeah, he took a lot of drugs, but his life was not crazy like Morrison's, Joplin's, Brian Jones' or Syd Barrett's, he was a worker, when he was stoned he was in the studio.

and to put it simply, when you watch that guy playing guitar onstage in all that old footage, man, no-one ever made playing the guitar look like so much fun, while twisting the most unexpected noises out of it, you can pick apart the technical aspects, and say, 'that tuning is not right' or whatever, but to us laymen, it just sounds damn good, a bit of discord? maybe he liked that, maybe didn't care because he was caught up in the energy and moment.
He's deified because he was cool as ! lol

i am listening to him right now actually, his 3 studio albums are superb, a helluva lot of creativity in there, the songs are all very different, and every single thing going on in the record serves the song, he was one of the great artists of the late 60s when rock exploded and cemented it's place in culture, and he helped that, it is no wonder he is deified, his songs are still like a breath of fresh air when they come on the radio, they don't sound dated, unlike most rock songs, they sound timeless.
 
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and there's the dichotomy between musicians and music fans. I can look at Hendrix critically and accept what he did, but realize he's been surpassed. Music fans like him because they like him, music, stage performance, whatever it is connects with people. Your original statement though that no one has furthered the art of guitar since is patently wrong, even his contemporaries (Blackmore, M Schenker, Uli Jon Roth) have surpassed him even when he was alive. But these are things non musicians will ever hear because it connects with them. You may not know what a sweep arpeggio sounds like, or pedal tones, etc, but when I hear music I hear exactly what's going on and Jimi though influential never really impressed me.
 
You are entitled to your opinion. You say his albums sound great, not to me, ibut then I hear things most don't, that's why I work for the music magazine. You also say the technically great players won't be remembered, yet you can't say that for Bach, Beethoven, Paganini, etc. Time will tell, I won't diminish Jimi's work, but I'm not going to agree that he was the greatest ever. He made a cultural and artistic impact, but I don't see him that way. Oh, and Jimi didn't think of himself as great either, he frequently spoke of Blackmoore so it depends on perspective.

An artist looks at a work and sees the maker's techique, and evaluates differently that someone looking at a pretty painting. Same deal, you get out of a work what you can bring to the table. Doesn't mean anyone's personal taste is wrong.
 
You misunderstand man. I used the musician, non-musician, artist, not-artist analogy to point out that a person's knowledge and expectations color what they get from a work of art. I didn't say you were crazy, in fact I went to great lengths to speak well of Jimi's accomplishments.

Bit of a snob? About some things I guess. But Jimi's place in history is secured, we could argue this all day with me from our differing viewpoints. The great thing about art is it's not math or science, there is no right or wrong, there is no scale to measure one better than the other, its just how it hits the individuals and what they value.

Oh, and that's Karate, I hate Kung Fu (btw, you said Kung Fu, and Sensei in that para, two different cultures). Don't even like that stuff mentioned in reference to me. :cmad::woot:
 
...

edit: Dude, I am sorry if I have been paranoid and overly defensive, I think I am too used to people on messageboards slipping in personal attacks on me in veiled ways, and so i need to take a break from this kind of thing for a while, I am beginning to see it in 95% of the posts I respond to now when i think about it, so i need a break, sorry if i sounded nuts back there, you are a good guy and i don't like venting off on good guys.

edit: ok, i am editing out all the horrible crap i typed up in this state of mind, not because i am trying to cover it up, but just because it is an eyesore on the thread/forum
. and I am not going to post here or elsewhere on the net until my head is 100% clear and healthy.
 
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Oh, and that's Karate, I hate Kung Fu (btw, you said Kung Fu, and Sensei in that para, two different cultures). Don't even like that stuff mentioned in reference to me.

I got this from Wikipedia....

Wǔshù literally means "martial art". It is formed from the two words 武術: 武 (wǔ), meaning "martial" or "military" and 術 (shù), which translates into "discipline", "skill" or "method."
The term wushu has also become the name for the modern sport of wushu, an exhibition and full-contact sport of bare-handed and weapons forms (Chinese: 套路, pinyin: tàolù), adapted and judged to a set of aesthetic criteria for points developed since 1949 in the People's Republic of China.[2][3]
[edit]The term "kung fu"
In Chinese, kung fu can also be used in contexts completely unrelated to martial arts, and refers colloquially to any individual accomplishment or skill cultivated through long and hard work.[1] Wushu is a more precise term for general martial activities.


Karate is Japanese martial arts with a literal translation which means "from hand." Maybe you would like to research the fact that many elements of Karate are borrowed from Chinese Kenpo. What do you hate about Kung Fu? Which particular style do you hate? Praying Mantis? BlackTiger? Why? If I could live forever I would study all forms of human self defense.
 
It's my own prejudices about certain mechanics of the whole thing. It just never appealed to me. I could get geeky about it, but this is not the thread for it. i know Karate descended from it, but it's a completely different thing where mechanics are concerned.

Don't quote Wiki, it makes you sound crazy. I kid, I kid.
 

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