How would historical figures react to their place in history?

From what I read his racist views predated his revolutionary career. It was before his transformation.

He was willing to die for black people. Doesn't sound racist to me. Plus his UN speech is extremely anti-racist.

You know the reason why he gave up on trying to spread his revolution in Africa? Have you read his works he wrote after he left Africa? It's pretty much because he developed a massive hatred of them. He refused to allow any blacks into his personal unit when he was "fighting for them". He saw spreading his revolution into Africa as a complete waste of time and went back to Latin America.

The extreme left really needs to stop idolizing El Che because in the end the man was nothing but a thug, a terrorist, a homophobe, a racist, and a murderer.
 
Seems like there is no grey area with Che. Either people like him or hate him

That's because there is no grey area with him. Che was an extremist so the only way you're going to support him, is if you support his ideals and overlook his methods. If you don't or abhore his methods, you're going to see him as a monster.

There really is no room for moderation when it comes to El Che. He's an interesting figure that's for sure.
 
You know the reason why he gave up on trying to spread his revolution in Africa? Have you read his works he wrote after he left Africa? It's pretty much because he developed a massive hatred of them. He refused to allow any blacks into his personal unit when he was "fighting for them". He saw spreading his revolution into Africa as a complete waste of time and went back to Latin America.
well if he had massive hatred toward blacks you should have no problem finding Che quotes that support that.

The extreme left really needs to stop idolizing El Che because in the end the man was nothing but a thug, a terrorist, a homophobe, a racist, and a murderer.
As long as right-wingers stop demonizing him.

How was Che a terrorist?

He over-threw a dictator responsible for 20,000 Cuban deaths.
 
One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist to follow the old cliche, next. I always wondered how Marx, as in Karl not our friendly neighborhood mod, would react to examining Soviet Russia in retrospect or in comparison to places like Sweden. I always wondered what he would think about the ways capitalism changed and how in many places instead or revolutions, workers formed unions and tried to better themselves within the system. I guesse he would just view that as a further extension of false consciousness. Who knows though.
 
I think that Karl Marx is rolling in his grave in response to how his ideology was transformed by the Soviet Union and the Communist bloc.
 
I'm pretty sure Bram Stoker would take one look at a poster for Twilight, turn to a person standing next to him and say "What the **** is this?!"
 
well if he had massive hatred toward blacks you should have no problem finding Che quotes that support that.
http://reason.com/archives/2002/06/01/ches-secret-diary

As long as right-wingers stop demonizing him.
He deserves to be demonized.

How was Che a terrorist?
Because he took part in the murder and oppression of Soviet styled Communism. He didn't just kill people who "deserved" it. He took part in the oppression that Communism and "freedom fighters" are well known for.

He over-threw a dictator responsible for 20,000 Cuban deaths.
So? The regime in Iran overthrew the brutal Shah, and they too are repressive. The oppressive Taliban overthrew the oppressive Communist regime in Afghanistan.

Batista deserved to be overthrown. But that doesn't make El Che a hero.
 
Hardly racist. He thought the Congolese were poor fighters. How does that translate into "I hate black people"?


He deserves to be demonized.
No one should be demonized. You judge them based on the truth not fabrications and exaggerations spoon-fed to the public by the CIA who killed them.


Because he took part in the murder and oppression of Soviet styled Communism. He didn't just kill people who "deserved" it. He took part in the oppression that Communism and "freedom fighters" are well known for.
He didn't kill people who deserved it? You mean like the thugs who brutally oppressed, tortured, and murdered 20,000 innocent Cubans?

The Cuban people wanted blood after Batista's tyranny and Che was like a governor who green lit some of the executions (Dubya executed 129 people compared to Che's 164). Most of the people who paint Che as monster support the death penalty. Ironic.

Should Che have executed fewer of Batista's thugs? yes.

Did those executions make him a terrorist? no.



So? The regime in Iran overthrew the brutal Shah, and they too are repressive. The oppressive Taliban overthrew the oppressive Communist regime in Afghanistan.

Batista deserved to be overthrown. But that doesn't make El Che a hero.
No the fact that Che fought and died to end the systematic exploitation of poor people around the world makes him a hero. A real life robin hood if there ever was one.

Batista was backed by America. Why? Out of greed. That's why the CIA assasinated Che, he was bad for business. If human rights was the issue they would've killed Batista instead years earlier, wouldn't they?
 
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I'm not supporting American support of Batista. It was wrong. Just like how America supported the Shah was wrong. Batista was a horrible person. Just like Che.
 
Che hated blacks? Then why did he fight to liberate parts of Africa and fight side by side with Africans? He also spoke against the apartied and racist, exploitive colonist in Africa in his UN speech.

Oh and where did you get the "killed thousands" estimate?

"The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have conserved their racial purity by a lack of affinity with washing, have seen their patch invaded by a different kind of slave: The Portugese.... the black is indolent and fanciful, he spends his money on frivolity and drink; the European comes from a tradition of working and saving which follows him to this corner of America and drives him to get ahead."

"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate."

"If the missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America including New York. We must never establish peaceful coexistence. In this struggle to the death between two systems we must gain the ultimate victory. We must walk the path of liberation even if it costs millions of atomic victims."

What a stand up guy. The estimates of how many people he killed were not all personal. His actions and his leadership got a lot of people killed alongside him pulling the trigger personally. It is amazing to me that people will endlessly bash George W. Bush and call him a murderer but they will happily wear Che t-shirts and idolize the man. Sometimes I think I live in Bizarro World.
 
Larry King would be amazed at how today's technology has made it seem as if he never passed away.
 
Walt Disney would kill himself after seeing what passes for animated cartoons nowadays.
 
I'm not supporting American support of Batista. It was wrong. Just like how America supported the Shah was wrong. Batista was a horrible person. Just like Che.

Most people are too blinded by their ideologies/partisan affiliations to admit things like this.

Supporting brutal dictators is wrong but both left and right wing groups have eagerly done so when it enriches them and their ruling cadres.
 
What a stand up guy. The estimates of how many people he killed were not all personal. His actions and his leadership got a lot of people killed alongside him pulling the trigger personally. It is amazing to me that people will endlessly bash George W. Bush and call him a murderer but they will happily wear Che t-shirts and idolize the man. Sometimes I think I live in Bizarro World.
The early racist quote by Che doesn't sway me.

What he did later in life is a greater testament to his commitment to racial justice. He pushed to desegregate Cuban schools, fought side by side with Africans to liberate them, and spoke out against apartheid and American racism in front of the United Nations.

In Vietnam, America's carpet bombing killed 150,000 innocent civillians. Those pilots were considered heroes by most on the right. Che oversees the execution of less than 175 murderous thugs who served Batista and that makes him one of histories monsters? 175 murderous thugs executed versus 150,000 innocent civillians murdered. Who was the real monster?

How was what Che did any where near as bad as killing 150,000 innocent civilians? Che green lit the execution of men who were were brutal, murderous thugs. These thugs tortured and murdered 20,000 Cubans under a tyranical dictatorship and the Cuban people demanded retribution. But Che is some kind of evil monster while American pilots were justified. Bizzaro World indeed.
 
Maybe because Che made the decision to kill people, while the American pilots were following orders?

Do you hate a cog in the clock, or hate the clockmaker?
 
i just find it humorous that no matter what you think of che all he's good for now is to sell posters and t-shirts to hippes and people who think they're too cool for others
 
Jimi Hendrix: would get depressed at the information that no-one has progressed any further with the electric guitar than he did, realise his last recording were not going to match Electric Ladyland no matter how hard he tried, and get involved in electronic music, he would take the music so out there that once again no-one could surpass what he did with the instruments, everyone would get bored of new music and just keep listening to the same stuff over and over again for the next millenia.

Electric guitar has not progressed? I beg to differ to the millionth power. There have been scads of virtuosos since Jimi that surpassed him from every standpoint. Sure he was famous because he played well and died young, but many non-musicians gravitate towards that not realizing his tone was terrible, his intonation was constantly off and by extension his vibrato was frequently out of tune to the point of painful. I'll not even get into the things Jimi simply could not do, like sweep arpeggios, tapping, glistonato, false harmonics, symetrical and non symetrical scales, pedal tones, etc.

I'm a guitar player and I write for Guitar World Magazine, every month dozens of CDs cross my desk with players who far outstrip Jimi from a technical and tonal standpoint. I won't deny his place in history, but it's largely romanticized. Guys like Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Yngwie Malmsteen, Tony Macalpine, Vinnie Moore, George Bellas, Frank Gambale, Allan Holdsworth, Shawn Lane, Rusty Cooley etc have taken the art much further. These players are out there, but many people don't dig below the surface, they go with what's popular and make judgments based upon that ... luckily at the time Jimi was alive what he was play was considered pop-music. Not many people seek out virtuoso guitar music or even real jazz (rather than the r&b they play on the radio and call it a jazz station).
 
The early racist quote by Che doesn't sway me.

What he did later in life is a greater testament to his commitment to racial justice. He pushed to desegregate Cuban schools, fought side by side with Africans to liberate them, and spoke out against apartheid and American racism in front of the United Nations.

So because he was against racism, he deserves to be called a saint.

Give me a ****ing break.
 
In Vietnam, America's carpet bombing killed 150,000 innocent civillians. Those pilots were considered heroes by most on the right. Che oversees the execution of less than 175 murderous thugs who served Batista and that makes him one of histories monsters? 175 murderous thugs executed versus 150,000 innocent civillians murdered. Who was the real monster?
Are you trying to justify Che's crimes against humanity by comparing them to other crimes against humanity? Hey...I guess Charles Manson is a much better human being because he killed half as many people as Dahmer.

How was what Che did any where near as bad as killing 150,000 innocent civilians? Che green lit the execution of men who were were brutal, murderous thugs. These thugs tortured and murdered 20,000 Cubans under a tyranical dictatorship and the Cuban people demanded retribution. But Che is some kind of evil monster while American pilots were justified. Bizzaro World indeed.

Here are some of the wonderful things our glorious Che did:

- Che is responsible for the death of over 2,000 people. He was the judge, jury, and executioner. He somehow managed to earn the nickname; The Butcher of La Cabana.
He was appointed commander of the La Cabaña Fortress prison, and during his five-month tenure in that post (January 2 through June 12, 1959), he oversaw the trial and execution of many people, among whom were former Batista regime officials and members of the "Bureau for the Repression of Communist Activities" (a unit of the secret police known by its Spanish acronym BRAC). José Vilasuso, an attorney who worked under Guevara at La Cabaña preparing indictments, said that these were lawless proceedings where "the facts were judged without any consideration to general juridical principles" and the findings were pre-determined by Guevara. It is estimated that between 156 and 550 people were executed on Guevara's extra-judicial orders during this time.
Now those are only the suspected Batista and their sympathizers that they captured. Do you really think those are the only people that Che was responsible for murdering? There is a very curious reason why the number isn't definitive and since they were not public proceedings, ala kangaroo courts, there is no telling how many people were really killed. He even shot people in the head execution style himself. He loved violence, he loved killing people.

- He was great friends with Castro and we all know how wonderful Castro is and how great he has made his country.

- Che set up forced labor camps that persecuted gays, blacks, and other 'undesirables'. Sound familiar? Hitler you say?

- Here is another wonderful quote from Che:
Along the way, I had the opportunity to pass through the dominions of the United Fruit, convincing me once again of just how terrible these capitalist octopuses are. I have sworn before a picture of the old and mourned comrade Stalin that I won't rest until I see these capitalist octopuses annihilated.
He liked Stalin? In fact, he referred to himself as Stalin II. Wonderful guy that Stalin.

I think someone said that the fad of Che is merely an 'adolescent revolutionary romanticism' and I 100% agree with that. If I had to sum up what Che is about I would say this: his ideals were great but his actions were terrible. It is indeed a Bizarro world when people idolize 'Stalin II.' No Che isn't a monster compared to the likes of Hitler but a monster is a monster. He wanted to destroy America. He was a terrorist. But hey...I guess nobody is going to wear an Osama shirt even though he is fighting for what he believes in.
 
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Electric guitar has not progressed? I beg to differ to the millionth power. There have been scads of virtuosos since Jimi that surpassed him from every standpoint. Sure he was famous because he played well and died young, but many non-musicians gravitate towards that not realizing his tone was terrible, his intonation was constantly off and by extension his vibrato was frequently out of tune to the point of painful. I'll not even get into the things Jimi simply could not do, like sweep arpeggios, tapping, glistonato, false harmonics, symetrical and non symetrical scales, pedal tones, etc.

I'm a guitar player and I write for Guitar World Magazine, every month dozens of CDs cross my desk with players who far outstrip Jimi from a technical and tonal standpoint. I won't deny his place in history, but it's largely romanticized. Guys like Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Yngwie Malmsteen, Tony Macalpine, Vinnie Moore, George Bellas, Frank Gambale, Allan Holdsworth, Shawn Lane, Rusty Cooley etc have taken the art much further. These players are out there, but many people don't dig below the surface, they go with what's popular and make judgments based upon that ... luckily at the time Jimi was alive what he was play was considered pop-music. Not many people seek out virtuoso guitar music or even real jazz (rather than the r&b they play on the radio and call it a jazz station).

Ok, fair enough, and back there I was talking about the technical and prowess aspects, sure, and I am not up to scratch(no pun intended) on guitarists nowadays.
But, taking into consideration his improvisory imagination, songwriting, sheer gusto with the live performances, pioneering recording techniques...I would still say he ranks up there as one of the best in popular music.
But I am glad to hear there are still folk out there pushing the boat with that.
I play guitar myself, but am terrible technically, I was really only ever inetersted in songwriting, i can bash out a song on it no probs when i am inspired, and can improvise along with other musicians, but technically, no i am awful, lol. But i got a lot of fun out of it.
 
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WRONG!

Jesus knew everything that would happen. Your theory is invalid.

:D
 
Ok, fair enough, and back there I was talking about the technical and prowess aspects, sure, and I am not up to scratch(no pun intended) on guitarists nowadays.
But, taking into consideration his improvisory imagination, songwriting, sheer gusto with the live performances, pioneering recording techniques...I would still say he ranks up there as one of the best in popular music.
But I am glad to hear there are still folk out there pushing the boat with that.
I play guitar myself, but am terrible technically, I was really only ever inetersted in songwriting, i can bash out a song on it no probs when i am inspired, and can improvise along with other musicians, but technically, no i am awful, lol. But i got a lot of fun out of it.

He was good, but I don't get the deification. You talk about improvisation, imagination, songwriting, live performances, recording techniques yet fail to realize that in all these areas Frank Zappa and Eddie Van Halen (and many others) did all of this and pioneered more than Jimi ever did. Even now people talk about recording the Van Halen way, or trying to replicate Eddy's "Brown sound" (the Frankenstein guitar that put a humbucker in a strat, the Floyd Rose bridge, the modded Marshall JCM 500s and later the Peavy 5150, the EBMM guitar, the Peavey Wolfgang guitar, etc). Or in areas of improvisation think about Zappa's skills, he recorded 3 separate albums live, unedited, completely improvised and they were released and were hits (You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore 1, 2 and 3). Or from a songwriting standpoint, Zappa wrote rock, pop, rap, metal, classical, avante guard, he was quite possibly the most versatile musician ever ... but he like Eddie didn't die young.

Buzz Feiten, the man who came up with the Buzz Feiten Tuning System for guitar, because as we all know the tuning system for guitar based upon Pythagoras's theory works, but not completely across the range of a stringed/fretted instrument where the scale length diminishes as you go down. It works for piano when introduced for piano Bach wrote The Well-Tempered Clavier to prove that a piano could be in tune across it's entire range. Buzz did the same for guitars, he's alive now, he's also one of the most in demand session players in the world playing literally on thousands of albums (if you've listened to the radio you have heard him). Yet I'm sure you and maybe most here have never heard of him, but if you want to talk about influence, him being the person who made guitars intonate across the whole fretboard is way more influential in itself than Jimi could ever be.

I get that people love Jimi, but it's as a result of his life and how he lived it mostly I think. As I said I can name scads of guitarists who are better, who made more of an impact on the industry but are not big names because they don't have that crazy life story.
 
Are you trying to justify Che's crimes against humanity by comparing them to other crimes against humanity? Hey...I guess Charles Manson is a much better human being because he killed half as many people as Dahmer.
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of condeming a man for killing evil thugs while honoring people who killed over a hundred thousand innocent people.



Here are some of the wonderful things our glorious Che did:

- Che is responsible for the death of over 2,000 people. He was the judge, jury, and executioner. He somehow managed to earn the nickname; The Butcher of La Cabana.
Now those are only the suspected Batista and their sympathizers that they captured. Do you really think those are the only people that Che was responsible for murdering? There is a very curious reason why the number isn't definitive and since they were not public proceedings, ala kangaroo courts, there is no telling how many people were really killed. He even shot people in the head execution style himself. He loved violence, he loved killing people.
2,000 people, huh? Where did you get that number?

- He was great friends with Castro and we all know how wonderful Castro is and how great he has made his country.
There are alot of countries that are doing worse without the help of US embargoes.

- Che set up forced labor camps that persecuted gays, blacks, and other 'undesirables'. Sound familiar? Hitler you say?
source?


He liked Stalin? In fact, he referred to himself as Stalin II. Wonderful guy that Stalin.

I think someone said that the fad of Che is merely an 'adolescent revolutionary romanticism' and I 100% agree with that. If I had to sum up what Che is about I would say this: his ideals were great but his actions were terrible. It is indeed a Bizarro world when people idolize 'Stalin II.' No Che isn't a monster compared to the likes of Hitler but a monster is a monster. He wanted to destroy America. He was a terrorist. But hey...I guess nobody is going to wear an Osama shirt even though he is fighting for what he believes in.
How was he a terrorist?

Did he attack American civilians or did he simply try to defeat America's puppet governments/dictatorships to help the poor.
 
Nixon was a lying no good racist. And he was a thief and a terrorist who helped overthrow the Shah. The situtation in Iran is because of Nixon. The racist bastard was pulling the strings even when Eisenhower was president. I fully believe he may have been behind JFK's assassination because he was bitter over 1960.
 

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