Comics If not Norman Obourne, who would you have liked to be behind the Clone saga?

November Rain

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Alot of peeps say they hate the fact norman osbourne came back from beyond the grave in the REVELATIONS arc to be the mastermind behind a large portion of the clone saga and that he had been planning his revenge for years and years.


now instead of norman, which villain do you think would have done a better job of being that plotline's mastermind?
 
Ned Leeds the Original Hobgoblin. Would've fit too, I'll explain later
 
How about...any villian who had a pulse? I wouldn't have been against it if there had been some hints to Norman being alive all along, but they just pulled it out of thin air.

I would have rather seen Judas Traveller behind it all, and then, when he died or whatever, all remnants of the Clone Saga could have been washed away...without every GG appearanve since then being tainted by the storyline that brought about his resurrection.

Just my opinion, though.
 
I didn't think there NEEDED TO BE a "puppet-master." I thought the idea was, Ben's back and what do we do about it? There really wasn't anything to be "behind" during the whole thing, until the stupid thing got waaay out of hand.

If you mean how could they have deux ex machina'd it better? I don't think they could have. It really packed a punch for the ushering in of a new era of Spidey, with an old enemy from the distant past that NO ONE would have suspected. Of course it wrecks everything and makes Norman Osborn the Lex Luthor of Marvel, but I don't know. I would have given anything to have gone back and been asked to fix it, but now? Now I have no idea.
 
How about Doc Ock? Now of course you'd have to go back a little in the story and have Kaine NOT kill him. (Which was a debacle in itself but we won't go there.) Otto has the intelligence to pull something like this off plus the revenge factor could come from finding out Spider-Man is\was just a kid and have this enrage him which was touched on in a recent Spider-Man story since the unmasking. (Another debacle which I'm not touching on here.) Basically Ock would feel that Peter made a laughing stock out of him and ruined his life so this would be his way of getting back at him.
 
Jackal. He was the creator of the original clone after all. It was really disappointing when the writers resurrected him only to let him be a puppet for Norman Osborn
 
but the jackal had just died, why would they ressurect him again so soon after his demise?
 
Venom07 said:
How about Doc Ock? Now of course you'd have to go back a little in the story and have Kaine NOT kill him. (Which was a debacle in itself but we won't go there.) Otto has the intelligence to pull something like this off plus the revenge factor could come from finding out Spider-Man is\was just a kid and have this enrage him which was touched on in a recent Spider-Man story since the unmasking. (Another debacle which I'm not touching on here.) Basically Ock would feel that Peter made a laughing stock out of him and ruined his life so this would be his way of getting back at him.
did ock know his identity leading up to the clone saga because this is a vital part of the story, it needed to be someone that either knew or was aware of spidey's secret identity.
 
Citizen_Kaine said:
Ned Leeds the Original Hobgoblin. Would've fit too, I'll explain later
I thought Roderick Kingsley was the original Hobgoblin? He was ruthless and would have fit the bill perfectly. ( agreed )
 
did ock know his identity leading up to the clone saga because this is a vital part of the story, it needed to be someone that either knew or was aware of spidey's secret identity.

Part of making Ock the ring leader would've been him finding out and that causing him to flip like I mentioned earlier. Norman is just plain crazy but there's a brillance to Ock's madness. (When he's written well)
 
November Rain said:
but the jackal had just died, why would they ressurect him again so soon after his demise?

True...but on that note, why ever bring the Clone back?

Personally, I think comics lose all credibility when they have to resort to resurrecting a character from the dead...or at least one that wasn't killed SPECIFICALLY to be resurrected. Norman was killed and he was meant to be left for dead. Gerry Conway said himself that it was a mistake to bring Norman back from the dead. Jackal was supposed to be left dead....as was the Clone. The clone's resurrection begat Jackal's resurrection begat Robot Master's resurrection begat Norman's Resurrection. It's stupid, and it didn't move the Spider-books forward one inch. In fact, it messed things up so badly, that they had to hit the reset button.

Dead should be dead. Period.
 
I always hated the Jackal. Especially when he "returned" and annoyed the **** out of us (the readers) for over a year. Ugh... what a crappy character. Stupid side comments about him being a perv, absolutely no charisma or motivation. Yes, they said he had motivation. "To destroy Parker." And of course, later on, "to replace the world with clones." Brilliant.
 
gliderpilotgirl said:
I thought Roderick Kingsley was the original Hobgoblin? He was ruthless and would have fit the bill perfectly. ( agreed )

Ah ha, see Kingsley wasn't revelead to be the true hobogoblin until 1997's Hobgoblin lives, back in my day he was nothing more than a Fashion Designer who shot a dummy of Spider-man in an issue of Spectacular.

In my day, Ned Leeds was the original Hobgoblin, and he had been known as that for almost 10 years. However when his identity was discovered, he was already dead. Killed in a pretty pathetic assasination attempt, by a bunch of goons hired by the Jack O' Lantern.

Ned Leeds, did make sense as a choice though. He hated Spider-Man for all the heartaches he caused Betty over her brothers death, he disliked Peter Parker for his history with Betty, and possible relationship they had while he and Betty were married. Ned was present at the battle between Reilly and Peter in ASM 149, he helped Peter investigate the Gwen Stacy double, and the majority of all the Clone research. He was captured by Miles Warren, off panel in ASM 148, who knows what dialouge could have occured there. Ned was blindfolded in ASM 149, but he could have eaisly heard Jackal call Spider-Man by his first name, which happened quite a few times. If you don't like that explanation, Ned would've easily overheard/saw Peter and freaking Wolverine talking in their hotel room. It would've fixed all the errors the plauged the reveal of the Hobgoblin in the first place. Why was the Hobgoblin killed by five grunts so easily? Answer: he let them. the healing factor(which was so important in Normans return) simply healed his slit throat after he had been buried. The purpose?: To lull Pete into a false sense of security, and later use the knowledge of everything he attained in Clone Genesis against him.
 
Citizen_Kaine said:
Ah ha, see Kingsley wasn't revelead to be the true hobogoblin until 1997's Hobgoblin lives, back in my day he was nothing more than a Fashion Designer who shot a dummy of Spider-man in an issue of Spectacular.

In my day, Ned Leeds was the original Hobgoblin, and he had been known as that for almost 10 years. However when his identity was discovered, he was already dead. Killed in a pretty pathetic assasination attempt, by a bunch of goons hired by the Jack O' Lantern.

Ned Leeds, did make sense as a choice though. He hated Spider-Man for all the heartaches he caused Betty over her brothers death, he disliked Peter Parker for his history with Betty, and possible relationship they had while he and Betty were married. Ned was present at the battle between Reilly and Peter in ASM 149, he helped Peter investigate the Gwen Stacy double, and the majority of all the Clone research. He was captured by Miles Warren, off panel in ASM 148, who knows what dialouge could have occured there. Ned was blindfolded in ASM 149, but he could have eaisly heard Jackal call Spider-Man by his first name, which happened quite a few times. If you don't like that explanation, Ned would've easily overheard/saw Peter and freaking Wolverine talking in their hotel room. It would've fixed all the errors the plauged the reveal of the Hobgoblin in the first place. Why was the Hobgoblin killed by five grunts so easily? Answer: he let them. the healing factor(which was so important in Normans return) simply healed his slit throat after he had been buried. The purpose?: To lull Pete into a false sense of security, and later use the knowledge of everything he attained in Clone Genesis against him.

Wow...I like your explanation way better than the crap-fest we got! :up:
 
Citizen_Kaine said:
Ah ha, see Kingsley wasn't revelead to be the true hobogoblin until 1997's Hobgoblin lives, back in my day he was nothing more than a Fashion Designer who shot a dummy of Spider-man in an issue of Spectacular.

In my day, Ned Leeds was the original Hobgoblin, and he had been known as that for almost 10 years. However when his identity was discovered, he was already dead. Killed in a pretty pathetic assasination attempt, by a bunch of goons hired by the Jack O' Lantern.

Ned Leeds, did make sense as a choice though. He hated Spider-Man for all the heartaches he caused Betty over her brothers death, he disliked Peter Parker for his history with Betty, and possible relationship they had while he and Betty were married. Ned was present at the battle between Reilly and Peter in ASM 149, he helped Peter investigate the Gwen Stacy double, and the majority of all the Clone research. He was captured by Miles Warren, off panel in ASM 148, who knows what dialouge could have occured there. Ned was blindfolded in ASM 149, but he could have eaisly heard Jackal call Spider-Man by his first name, which happened quite a few times. If you don't like that explanation, Ned would've easily overheard/saw Peter and freaking Wolverine talking in their hotel room. It would've fixed all the errors the plauged the reveal of the Hobgoblin in the first place. Why was the Hobgoblin killed by five grunts so easily? Answer: he let them. the healing factor(which was so important in Normans return) simply healed his slit throat after he had been buried. The purpose?: To lull Pete into a false sense of security, and later use the knowledge of everything he attained in Clone Genesis against him.

Sounds like an interesting theory, except that I don't understand why Ned Leeds would need to allow his throat to be slit in order to lull Peter in a false sense of security...since Peter had no clue that Ned Leeds was (supposedly) the Hobgoblin.

Couldn't he just mop the floor with the thugs with a few pumpkin bombs (remember Hobby 1st appearance, he mentions that they're practically silent) and then continue his own agenda undisturbed ?
 
Hypno-Hustler. If he was revealed to be the master mind behind the Clone Saga, it would have been even cooler than tear away pants in their prime. :up:
 
TwoMinutesHate said:
Hypno-Hustler. If he was revealed to be the master mind behind the Clone Saga, it would have been even cooler than tear away pants in their prime. :up:

You know what I'd like to see? another of Spidey's villain getting a copycat running around as a variation of the original...

I want Hypno-Hustler VS Hypno-Rapper! with Spidey stuck on the side of a building laughing his head off and wondering why he's always the one dealing with the nut-jobs.

Classic Spidey moment right there :up: (except that they'd probably beat the hell out of Spidey these days :mad:)

And to be topical I would have liked that a decent Jackal be the mastermind since he was the one who came up with clones in the first place. Heck I don't even mind if it would be the clone of the Jackal, as long as he doesn't suck as much as the one we were left with instead...
 
Grim Goblin said:
Sounds like an interesting theory, except that I don't understand why Ned Leeds would need to allow his throat to be slit in order to lull Peter in a false sense of security...since Peter had no clue that Ned Leeds was (supposedly) the Hobgoblin.

Couldn't he just mop the floor with the thugs with a few pumpkin bombs (remember Hobby 1st appearance, he mentions that they're practically silent) and then continue his own agenda undisturbed ?

Yeah but if a bunch of small time goons like that showed up, he had to know he secret had been blown, and if the underworld connections knew, eventually Spider-Man would learn too. If he took a dive, he could work with little to no scrutiny against Pete.
 
Nope, I always would have the mastermind of the clone saga be Norman Osborn.
 
what about harry, a slight deviation from what we got but it wouldn't ruin the whole asm 121 issue

although it may taint the best of enemies issue where harry died....but not many people seem to like that one for some reason...
 
November Rain said:
but the jackal had just died, why would they ressurect him again so soon after his demise?

They should never had killed him again. Or the clone saga should have ended with Jackal's second death
 
i would have had it be harry osborn.....

and i loved the best of enemies story in spec spidey #200 ....it was one of the first spiderman issues i bought when i got into comics
 

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