"If you outlaw heroes, then only outlaws will be heroes.."

[The Question]

You know, I wouldn't like a Marvel Universe with registered heroes. It's one thing ot add a little realism to comics, but I don't see the fun of adding a lot to it. I would like to see super-heroes not super-agents or super-cops. What's fun in that? Tou want to go for realism? Okay, I'll repeat some of the stuff I posted in another thread a few weeks back...

Are we to believe that the government will suddenly start paying this influx of registered Marvels on top of what they spend for other law enforcement agencies, army, etc.? How "realistic" is it to think that if these Marvels become public servants funds won't be cut from other areas and given to them? How will normal beings feel about this when they start losing their jobs, when they realize that they're no competition for the Marvels? Do you know how much the face of the MU would change when the government says that New York has far too many Marvels and not enough budget to support them? How will it feel to be told that you have to move or desist in your "vigilante" activites?

This has all the makings of a super-arms race. The US calls for a mandatory registration, other countries will follow suit but realize that there are other benefits to it. How about offering more money and better incentives to Marvels so they'll come to your country? Note that I'm NOT making the distinction of hero/villain. We've already seen how different governments utilize Marvels (good AND bad) in different ways. How long before Marvels replace nuclear/atomic weapons and become the new "measuring stick"?

I'm not interested in stories where Spider Man has to shout "Stop in the name of the law" and then fire off warning webbing before apprehending a bad guy. It would be truly disconcerting to read that Peter is broke once again because they can't find the Rhino and since they can't bill the Rhino then they obviously have to bill someone and Uncle Sam ain't gonna foot the bill so you gotta bill the OTHER person involved in the fight who is adequately registered, right? What's fun about the Red Skull suing Capt. America for using excessive force and Cap getting a reprimand because the Skull was right? What's he gonna do, use a NERF throwing shield? How about Reed Richards getting fined for using his powers during his required vacation time, that'd be cool right?

Don't you think there would be a rash of people with weak powers going to training and doing just enough to pass and actually getting a job? The League of Mediocre Gentlemen sounds like a cool title to me! I'd buy all 10 variant covers!! How about bad guys that go just to get the training, to find out how it works, to get good at using their powers and then turning to a life of crime. Or better yet, to still act as do-gooders but actually be corrupt! Turncoat Society of America! AWESOME!!!! How long before the heroe's passion turns into "it's just a job"? How long before complacency and carlesness? By the way, arrogance breeds as much possibility for error as "inexperience". Yup, the MU would be so much better with the registration act and mimicking what our world could be like.

I understand your point. I'm just saying, a registration act of some kind is a logical solution to an overflow of vigilante activity. Were it so common in the real world as it is in the MU, a similar act would probably be written. Now, weather or not it would pass is a different issue.

 

[UK_Stu]

I'm gobsmacked that so many posters here seem to be happy with the idea of vigilantism. Its easy to see why Millar has chosen this type of story - it really reflects the way a lot of people feel today obviously.

 

[Tropico]

Super-agents or Super-cops are not a new idea, there are quite a few of them in both Marvel and DC universe, but I understand what you mean.

I know there are few heroes like that, what I said is that I wouldn't like them ALL to be like that. You can even include the X-Men when they became the XSE in our timeline. Almost everyone seems to have forgotten this fact, it was only recetly in Black Panther where I saw this acknowledged. For all purposes the X-Men or the majory of them are supposed to be resistered unless Sage made some kind of logic bomb to erase those files.


For someone who does not like a lot of realism in his comic you seem to be putting a lot of it in your argument.

I put a lot of realism into my arguments because I believe that talking about just secret i.d.'s and training is doing a half assed job. Thinking that those are the only factors is being naive, there SHOULD be a bunch of other repercussions like the ones I mentioned. I even have more ideas that would only be logical to follow up if/when the registration passes.

But I suppose that some heroes like the Avengers and FF would be considered national and not state heroes so altho there are lots of heroes based in New York some of them work globaly so they would not be paid under the states funding. As for where the money comes from I dont think that would be a major problem seeing as how they dont seem to have any problem funding all those secret projects and repairs for all the damage caused by super Villan/heroes fight.

We have a difference of opinion here. I don't see why heroes that would work on a NATIONAL scale would have to be based in NY. It wouldn't allow for the quickest response time to any emergency in any state. It would make more sense to have different agents and offices in different states to make it more cost effective and practical. If GLOBAL heroes are going to be funded by the ONU or some other blobal organization I would expect that not ALL of them be based in the US, after all, they're global. Logic would mandate that they did something like the X-Corp offices around the world. If you want me to get into this realism thing please don't tell me that I'm supposed to believe that if the Juggernaut is rampaging through the Vatican they're supposed to wait 2 hours for someone to get there. In the real world it would be unacceptable, why should it be acceptable in comics?

Funding. Why should you as a tax payer continue to pay for the damage other people do now that they can be held accountable? Those funds could go to other programs or reduced taxes. I have a big problem with believing that the government will pay all of the heroes we have jumping around. It makes more sense to me that the government would ask them to get a license, which they would have to pay for. Heroes would have to get an insurance carrier to deal with the damage they might make to public property. If it's determined that you need training you would have to enroll in a training program which you wouldn't have to pay in lieu of being a public servant for a certain amount of months/years.

The super-arms race started a long time ago in Marvel with Cap America. There have been a lot of of Super powered beings (mainly they turn into villans for some reason) that are a result of the super-arms race from other countries already such as china and russia.

I'm aware of that. But now that it would be MANDATORY to register it's a whole new ball game. We have yet to see how beholden they are to the government (but by Miss Hill's comments they would be working under her), but as foreign country I would certainly do something to protect myself from the US govt.'s new muscle.

You are over exaguaratinig here. Cap has worked for SHIELD and he has never gotten sued for anything since it would be the agency that would be responsible not the individual (unless he has been very very careless, then he would face some kind of disceplinary action). Also what is stopping Red Skull from suing Cap right now? Cap does not have a secret ID and there is nothing in the law that says that superheroes cant be sued so what would the registration act change here?

Exaggerating? There are people around here that sound like broken records with their constant "law practices and police procedures" comments and you want me to overlook how law enforcers have to operate? Even Feds have procedures to follow. I know, I know; it would be EXTREMELY convenient if the MArvels get special dispensation so they don't have to act like your ordinary law enforcement officers but that just doesn't seem real to me.

Why would Reed get fined for using his powers during a vacation? There is no law against that. What you think every mutant is going to get fined for using thier powers even if they are not vigilanties? I think Sue would just be pleased that Reed is forced to take a vacation and spend some time with his family.

Soooo...cops can act like cops when they're off duty? If you look at my post closely you would see that I said REQUIRED vacation time. It's not voluntary, it's what your boss (the govt.) is telling you you HAVE to take. You're off duty during that time and although some people can be understanding and even grateful that you helped during you off duty time you would still be leaving yourself open to retaliatory action because of it. I'm sure that Sue would be ecstatic that Reed would have to take vacations, I don't know about Reed, though. Oh, and since they work for someone else now they can't just take vacations whenever they want to; they would have to be approved and that deoesn't guarantee that they'll be taking vacations together.


It is not always about power. I mean look at the Wasp, she had such a weak power but she was a member of the Avengers and has been instrumental in some fights so I dont belive it is the power that matters but the person behind the power. I think the people that dont make the cut will do the same thing that people who dont make it into the police force will do. Either give up and do another job or go work for a private company as a guard, I am sure there are a lot of companies out there who would want super-powered security. Some might turn to crime but seeing as how they could not pass the test they will not be too much trouble.

I mentioned that they did well enough to pass the test, didn't I? The point I'm trying to make is that it's a very good way for mediocre people to get in on the action and make it harder for those that are truly in it from their hearts, I know Marvel isn't going to make a comic like that, but it's something that would happen in real life.

I dont see how you can assume that working for the government/state will cause people to turn corrupt. I mean either they are corrupt and will be so no matter what happens (hence Suppervillans) or they have a strong enough moral backbone to be good. As for the heroes lossing thier passion or convictions, again that has nothing to do with working for the government, case in point look at Hawkeye.

I never said that working for the govt. will corrupt you. I said that if you open the door that way it allows corrupt people to get into the system. Bad guys have infiltrated teams before, IMO this would only make it easier. Not only that, it allows you to take a training course and see how the heroes faight and think so that when you get out you have a leg up on your adversaries. Or you can be like one of these corrupt officials that abuse their power.

What got me into Marvel the first time was the whole Anti-Mutant sentiment that was going around in that universe, because it seemed like something that would happen in this world if mutants started poping up. So I am enjoying this idea and I belive it was long overdue.

Therein lies our difference. Although I love Reese's Peanut Butter cups this is one chocolate (reality) and peanut butter (comics) that I don't want mixing together. You probably want heroes that are like you but have powers; I'm guessing it allows you to identify with them. Me? I want heroes that are BETTER than me and inspire me. It's what being a hero means to me. Sure, there are cool stories about heroes that are like us and they have to overcome greater adversities than us. But to me it feels more like a hero if that person doesn't succumb to the same temptations I would fall to. I can read about real life heroes from the papers or books about policemen, firemen, etc.; but I'm not looking for that, I'm looking for SUPERhero stories.

 

[The Question]

Personally, all of the characters being better than us makes them too aloof. Everyone has shortcomings and insicurities. Super powered crime fighters shouldn't be exempt from this.

 

[Tropico]

I understand your point. I'm just saying, a registration act of some kind is a logical solution to an overflow of vigilante activity. Were it so common in the real world as it is in the MU, a similar act would probably be written. Now, weather or not it would pass is a different issue.

I understand the concept behind the registration act, but I also see how it can bring about bigger problems than solutions. If done REALISTICALLY, this story should drastically change the face of the MU.

There's been an "overflow" of vigilante activity for years now, Question; they're comic books, after all. Our logic DOESN'T mandate the MU and it shouldn't, other posters have said it before me.

You want logic to dictate what happens in the MU? Why aren't there better prisons? A lot of people here LOVE to argue that the heroes' secrets will be safe with the govt. thanks to Reed, Tony and SHIELD's super science; why not use that super science to make better jails? Why hasn't THAT story been written? Easy, because SUPERheroes need SUPERvillains to fight and we can't have an infinite number of villains so that heroes have a new one to fight each time, right? It's extremely lazy and mind-numbingly selfish to accuse the heroes of not ending the supervillain menace when the people they're doing it for don't do it either. But, it makes for a far more interesting story to put the heroes in this dilemma than point the finger at other people. It makes it easier for people to identify with if they can lay the blame on other people but themselves (blame the hero, not me). It mimics what happens in the real world, people get a ticket and are quick to open their mouths and say that the police could be stopping a crime instead of something as minor as moving violation. Or they blame police for not catching perps but then everybody says that they didn't see anything. It's always someone else who has the blame.

 

[Tropico]

Personally, all of the characters being better than us makes them too aloof. Everyone has shortcomings and insicurities. Super powered crime fighters shouldn't be exempt from this.

They would be aloof if they wrote them to be aloof. If you perceive them as aloof because they're better than you (even if they don't treat you like a lesser person) that's something personal and not because of their character traits.

But, like I said some people want heroes that're like them; others want heroes that can inspire them by being better.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

I'm gobsmacked that so many posters here seem to be happy with the idea of vigilantism.

Superhero vigilantism is a far cry from real world vigilantism.

 

[The Question]

I understand the concept behind the registration act, but I also see how it can bring about bigger problems than solutions. If done REALISTICALLY, this story should drastically change the face of the MU.

It could. If the act nis passed. Doesn't mean it will.

There's been an "overflow" of vigilante activity for years now, Question; they're comic books, after all. Our logic DOESN'T mandate the MU and it shouldn't, other posters have said it before me.

I don't think our logic should be completely absent, either.

You want logic to dictate what happens in the MU? Why aren't there better prisons? A lot of people here LOVE to argue that the heroes' secrets will be safe with the govt. thanks to Reed, Tony and SHIELD's super science; why not use that super science to make better jails? Why hasn't THAT story been written? Easy, because SUPERheroes need SUPERvillains to fight and we can't have an infinite number of villains so that heroes have a new one to fight each time, right? It's extremely lazy and mind-numbingly selfish to accuse the heroes of not ending the supervillain menace when the people they're doing it for don't do it either. But, it makes for a far more interesting story to put the heroes in this dilemma than point the finger at other people. It makes it easier for people to identify with if they can lay the blame on other people but themselves (blame the hero, not me). It mimics what happens in the real world, people get a ticket and are quick to open their mouths and say that the police could be stopping a crime instead of something as minor as moving violation. Or they blame police for not catching perps but then everybody says that they didn't see anything. It's always someone else who has the blame.

Very true.

 

[BrianWilly]

How often has a super heroe's intereference resulted in property damage? More than a few. Hell, heroes are tossing around cars and smashing people through walls all the time.

Unless they were blatantly and directly responsible as in the case of the New Warriors, you can't blame superheroes for all property damage that occurs during a fight with a supervillain considering that they were trying to stop that sort of damage in the first place. If they hadn't been there then the damage would have been worse.

"Interference?" They are obviously and blatantly saving lives.

I don't live in a city.

Okay. Then -- off the top of your head -- name one private detective in the world, period. Any one.

That doesn't mean it's an unapt analogy. The reason for registration is the same. And private detectives can still easily become targets of retribution from criminals.

Not nearly as easily as superheroes. We've been through this; superheroes are thousands of times more public and recognized than private detectives. Being targetting for retribution is a completely different animal for them. Especially since they themselves would not be the focus of that retribution, but that their families would be.

Then how, may I ask, are there any criminals left uncaught? If S.H.E.I.L.D. can track down anyone they want whenever they want, why is it that the likes of The Red Skull are still uncaught?

But they do track down the Red Skull. Captain America bounces in on him and kicks his ass over and over again. Pretty much every single supervillain has been in prison at least once or twice. They might escape, or they might get released, or they might get killed and then resurrected or whatever, but eventually they do get caught.

Why does them being registered mean that who they are and where they live would be posted on the six o'clock news? They don't publically post the names of police officers, military personel, private detectives, or bounty hunters. If the heroes want to retain anonimity, I'm sure the feds could keep their files secret.

From Dr. Doom? Baron Zemo? Maybe we're just all being paranoid poops and those SHIELD files would be kept completely safe from supervillains and mad scientists and their own untrustworthy agents, but you're asking for a hell of a lot of trust from the superhero community towards a governmental branch which has traditionally and constantly treated their kind like s**t, for lack of a better term. At the least you can see why a lot of them would be reticent.

Why? A higher number of vigilantes doesn't mean the government would be happy with them. Hell, it would probably make them dislike them even more.

Or they would have learned to coexist with them already. You can't really predict what a government should be like in this world where people lifting tanks has been par for the course since the 1800s. I do agree though that the Marvel universe government has been consistently anti-vigilante.

But they're not all always going to be effective.

Then deal with the superheroes that aren't effective. What does that have to do with the ones that are doing their jobs well?

of course. But the fact that many have been effective doesn't mean all future heroes will be. And to allow the effectrive ones to go unregistered and simply wait for the ones who screw up to screw up and be registered is much more dangerous than registering them all. Like I've said, they don't wait for a PI to screw up a police investigation to have him registered.

They do wait for a PI to screw up before accusing him of screwing up, though.

It's not villifying them. It's registering them. Making sure they know what they're doing.

Tell that to Maria Hill. Tell that woman who screamed at Stark during the funeral. The very essence of the registration act is based on fear of superheroes and treating them more like villains than like heroes. Like I said, the Registration Act is just another event in the long line of Marvel's tradition of blurring the line between their heroes and their villains.

And yet, for the sake of the registration arguement, they are similar enough to be used in explenation.

The very fact that superheroes are many times more known and recognized than private detectives makes the comparison useless. The heart of the issue here is that of the secret identity and what it's needed for, which is a completely different matter for someone who's anonymous and unrecognized versus someone who appears in the Daily Bugle front pages day after day after day.

Morality has nothingb to do with the arguement.

What? Of course morality has everything to do with the argument. Morality should be at the heart of every law.

 

[Trask]

I know there are few heroes like that, what I said is that I wouldn't like them ALL to be like that. You can even include the X-Men when they became the XSE in our timeline. Almost everyone seems to have forgotten this fact, it was only recetly in Black Panther where I saw this acknowledged. For all purposes the X-Men or the majory of them are supposed to be resistered unless Sage made some kind of logic bomb to erase those files.

We do not know yet to what extenct the heroes will be working for the government. Everyone assumes that if they work for the government it means they will end up fighting some secret war on behalf of the US in some other country. I think that most of this heroes just have too much of a high profile for that kind of thing, it would be more likely that they would recruite and train some other super powered mutants that are not yet know to the public.

I put a lot of realism into my arguments because I believe that talking about just secret i.d.'s and training is doing a half assed job. Thinking that those are the only factors is being naive, there SHOULD be a bunch of other repercussions like the ones I mentioned. I even have more ideas that would only be logical to follow up if/when the registration passes.

It was not a criticisem. I just mentioned it because you mentioned your dislike for realism in comics and then put forward an "accounting" argument. I am up for any new arguments.

We have a difference of opinion here. I don't see why heroes that would work on a NATIONAL scale would have to be based in NY. It wouldn't allow for the quickest response time to any emergency in any state. It would make more sense to have different agents and offices in different states to make it more cost effective and practical. If GLOBAL heroes are going to be funded by the ONU or some other blobal organization I would expect that not ALL of them be based in the US, after all, they're global. Logic would mandate that they did something like the X-Corp offices around the world. If you want me to get into this realism thing please don't tell me that I'm supposed to believe that if the Juggernaut is rampaging through the Vatican they're supposed to wait 2 hours for someone to get there. In the real world it would be unacceptable, why should it be acceptable in comics?

Well the Avengers or the FF have never had a hard time getting anywhere in the world from NY so I am gessing that is not a problem for them. SHIELD is a UN agency but their main helicarier is always in the US, so I dont know what to tell you (its Marvel world logic). Also I am not saying that FF and Avengers are the only global superheroes, it is just the ones that Marvel has decided to show us. Same goes for superheroes in other states, we never hear about superheroes in Texas for example, but that does not mean there are none there. It is just that Marvel tends to concentrate on NY.

Funding. Why should you as a tax payer continue to pay for the damage other people do now that they can be held accountable? Those funds could go to other programs or reduced taxes. I have a big problem with believing that the government will pay all of the heroes we have jumping around. It makes more sense to me that the government would ask them to get a license, which they would have to pay for. Heroes would have to get an insurance carrier to deal with the damage they might make to public property. If it's determined that you need training you would have to enroll in a training program which you wouldn't have to pay in lieu of being a public servant for a certain amount of months/years.

As Stark mentioned in the spiderman comic where they go to Washington, the cost of repairs to damage done by the heroes in the fights is much less than what it would cost if they did nothing, so technically when all is added up the Government does come out better. Insurance would not really work because the heroes would need to pay very high premiums (talking in the 1,000 range here per month, maybe even more).

By the way do you have any idea how much money the US government spends in weapon R&D in the real world? Now imagine how much they spend in the Marvel world concidering how much more advanced thier technology is (not to mention the whole genetic research they do). Next to all that the amount that would be needed for repairs is next to nothing, and if the people of our or Marvels world have never objected to the obscene amount of money that is spent on the military then I dont see them complaining about the money spent on the heroes, since they are already spending it anyway.

I'm aware of that. But now that it would be MANDATORY to register it's a whole new ball game. We have yet to see how beholden they are to the government (but by Miss Hill's comments they would be working under her), but as foreign country I would certainly do something to protect myself from the US govt.'s new muscle.

Miss Hill is UN not US so if she is in charge they would be under UN command, which I dont see happening. Also I dont think it would work to try and force them to fight for the US in some war, they would just quit.

Exaggerating? There are people around here that sound like broken records with their constant "law practices and police procedures" comments and you want me to overlook how law enforcers have to operate? Even Feds have procedures to follow. I know, I know; it would be EXTREMELY convenient if the MArvels get special dispensation so they don't have to act like your ordinary law enforcement officers but that just doesn't seem real to me./quote]

The exaguration I was refer to is your comment that the Red Skull would be able to somehow sue Cap if this act is passed. Also Fed agents and police officers are very rearly directly sued, it is the agency that gets sued. Also why should not the heroes at least learn some of the basics of law and police procedures. I mean have we all of a sudden forgotten about the rights of people. If the government whats to create new laws or procedures for heroes then that should be inplimented but there must be some kind of rules to follow.

Soooo...cops can act like cops when they're off duty? If you look at my post closely you would see that I said REQUIRED vacation time. It's not voluntary, it's what your boss (the govt.) is telling you you HAVE to take. You're off duty during that time and although some people can be understanding and even grateful that you helped during you off duty time you would still be leaving yourself open to retaliatory action because of it. I'm sure that Sue would be ecstatic that Reed would have to take vacations, I don't know about Reed, though. Oh, and since they work for someone else now they can't just take vacations whenever they want to; they would have to be approved and that deoesn't guarantee that they'll be taking vacations together.

Police are allowed to make arrests if they are off duty and come upon a crime (doesnt matter if they are on forced vacation). It is just common sence, do you truly belive that a cop's captain is going to reprimand an officer if he stopped a crime he came across while he was on vacation? I think he would be more upset with him if the cop did nothing and someone got injured or killed. Why do you paint the government to be heartless, of course they would allow them to go on thier vacations together (especially since they work as a group). Also it has not been said how involved the government will get.

I mentioned that they did well enough to pass the test, didn't I? The point I'm trying to make is that it's a very good way for mediocre people to get in on the action and make it harder for those that are truly in it from their hearts, I know Marvel isn't going to make a comic like that, but it's something that would happen in real life.

I dont get your argument. Nothing in life is easy, if you do not have the determination or the skills needed to pass the class how do you expect them to survive out in the world where they might have to face villans like electro, shocker and the rest on thier own? Sure some that want to be heroes from thier heart will not make the cut, but just because you really want to be a heroe does not mean you should be. That is the whole point of the training, it is to make sure that those who can not meet the requirments to become a hero, do not go out there and endanger thier or the publics life.

I never said that working for the govt. will corrupt you. I said that if you open the door that way it allows corrupt people to get into the system. Bad guys have infiltrated teams before, IMO this would only make it easier. Not only that, it allows you to take a training course and see how the heroes faight and think so that when you get out you have a leg up on your adversaries. Or you can be like one of these corrupt officials that abuse their power.

There is a flaw in your reasoning there. For someone to take the training course with the intention of becoming a villan you would need to have planned it ahead of time. If someone is smart and farsighted enough to do that (since the training would take at least 6-12 months), then I think they are a formidable villan to start with, and they would have spent that time training with someone else if the act was not passed anyway.

As you said bad guys have infiltrated teams before and they always will no matter what you do about it (i.e. Spider woman in New Avengers). So using that as an excuse against registration is flimsy at beast.


Okay tell you what, for all those people who object to the registration act, why not come up with alternate solutions? It is easy to shoot down ideas but if you are going to object to it then why not come up with some ideas on how to solve the problem? You cant just expect everything to keep going as it is since it does not seem to be working.

 

[BrianWilly]

On what basis are you making this claim that things are not working right now? The New Warriors incident was a shocking accident that does not reflect the norm in the Marvel universe. As a whole, the Marvel universe superheroes are incredibly effective and have done their jobs well.

Like I have already said, SHIELD is perfectly well equipped to take care of the sporadic heroes that occasionally make mistakes in their jobs. The fact that you have to vilify and register an entire community of people just to keep track of the few that do screw up is just overkill on every level. And that's not even going into forcing them to reveal their identities to the government.

 

[The Question]

Unless they were blatantly and directly responsible as in the case of the New Warriors, you can't blame superheroes for all property damage that occurs during a fight with a supervillain considering that they were trying to stop that sort of damage in the first place. If they hadn't been there then the damage would have been worse.

"Interference?" They are obviously and blatantly saving lives.

Dosn't mean they're not interfering.

Okay. Then -- off the top of your head -- name one private detective in the world, period. Any one.

Okay. You do have me there. Although, I doubt it would be hard to track one down, since they're actually in the phone book.

Not nearly as easily as superheroes. We've been through this; superheroes are thousands of times more public and recognized than private detectives. Being targetting for retribution is a completely different animal for them. Especially since they themselves would not be the focus of that retribution, but that their families would be.

Why wouldn't the families of a private detective be the target of retribution if they pissed off some kind of criminal? Mob revenge almost allways has the hitman going after the families first.

But they do track down the Red Skull. Captain America bounces in on him and kicks his ass over and over again. Pretty much every single supervillain has been in prison at least once or twice. They might escape, or they might get released, or they might get killed and then resurrected or whatever, but eventually they do get caught.

Yes. But tell me, how often has it been that S.H.E.I.L.D. was the ones to track them down? And hell, not every villain eventually get's caught. Magneto, The Red Skull, Zemo, and Strucker stayed on the run for many years.

From Dr. Doom? Baron Zemo? Maybe we're just all being paranoid poops and those SHIELD files would be kept completely safe from supervillains and mad scientists and their own untrustworthy agents, but you're asking for a hell of a lot of trust from the superhero community towards a governmental branch which has traditionally and constantly treated their kind like s**t, for lack of a better term. At the least you can see why a lot of them would be reticent.

Oh, of course. I'm not at all doubtful that they wouldn't like it.

Or they would have learned to coexist with them already. You can't really predict what a government should be like in this world where people lifting tanks has been par for the course since the 1800s.

I'm pretty sure the major influx of vigilante activity in the MU's United States started in the 1940s. Before that, there were vigilantes, but no more than there were in the real world.

I do agree though that the Marvel universe government has been consistently anti-vigilante.

Which a reasonable government would be. If vigilante activity is less than common as it is in the real world, they can afford to ignore it. But if it's as common as it is in the MU, they're going to take some kind of action against it sooner or later.

Then deal with the superheroes that aren't effective. What does that have to do with the ones that are doing their jobs well?

Because in the possibility that a hero screws up in any considerable way that results in property damage or something like that, it's much easier to hold them responsible if they're registered.

They do wait for a PI to screw up before accusing him of screwing up, though.

1) The government does, however, force all PIs to register.

2) They MU government is not acusing the heroes of anything. They simply want them to register.

Tell that to Maria Hill. Tell that woman who screamed at Stark during the funeral. The very essence of the registration act is based on fear of superheroes and treating them more like villains than like heroes.

No it isn't. The very essence of the act is making sure that the heroes know what they're doing, are properly trained, can be held acountable for any screw ups, and aren't just a bunch of walking weapons of mass destruction playing cowboy.

Like I said, the Registration Act is just another event in the long line of Marvel's tradition of blurring the line between their heroes and their villains.

No, it isn't. They aren't calling them villains. They're saying that it would be better for the public safety were they registered.

The very fact that superheroes are many times more known and recognized than private detectives makes the comparison useless.

No, it doesn't. At all. The reason for registration remains the same, or at least comperable.

The heart of the issue here is that of the secret identity and what it's needed for, which is a completely different matter for someone who's anonymous and unrecognized versus someone who appears in the Daily Bugle front pages day after day after day.

1) The government isn't posting who they really are on the front page of the New York Times.

2) You can find out who a private detective is easily. More importantly, anyone who has a vendetta against a PI or a cop knows who they are and who their family is.

3) Not every hero apears on the front page day after day. Many don't. And if they're not actually stopping for interveiws (which many don't do), then I doubt they'd get more than a mention.

What? Of course morality has everything to do with the argument. Morality should be at the heart of every law.

No, it shouldn't. That is an absolutely terrible idea. The law should be based entirely on what keeps the country safe. That's it. Morality should not come into play at all. This is because every person's personal moral code is different. If you legislate morality, you get into the stuff with gay marraige.

 

[Trask]

On what basis are you making this claim that things are not working right now? The New Warriors incident was a shocking accident that does not reflect the norm in the Marvel universe. As a whole, the Marvel universe superheroes are incredibly effective and have done their jobs well.

I will give you one other example, go and read Marvel Knights Spider-Man #3 where Spiderman gets over his head and starts a fight that results in the death of a number of people including some children, all because he was not thinking straight and he had no one to turn to for help. These new registration act is not just to train and keep track of heroes but to also set up a network of support for when they really need it.

Like I have already said, SHIELD is perfectly well equipped to take care of the sporadic heroes that occasionally make mistakes in their jobs. The fact that you have to vilify and register an entire community of people just to keep track of the few that do screw up is just overkill on every level. And that's not even going into forcing them to reveal their identities to the government.

Why should they be reactive when they could save lifes by being proactive. That is like saying to cops or firemen "hey you dont need to train to become a fireman or cop because we dont want to cause you too much trouble but if you screw up we and cause the death of some people then we will deal with you".

Stop hiding behind the "revealing their identities to the government" argument because we all know SHIELD already has thier ID so that argument is defunct.

The way I see it the government has been very lenient with the superheroes for a number of years and have granted them some privilages. The government has to look at the long term, and this new rules are not meant mainly for the heroes that exist right now (like Cap and Iron man) but for future heroes that will be joining the game. What the New Warriors incident showed was that if the government does not deal with the problem there will be more and more people like them and more and more casualties.

I am sorry but if the price for preventing another incident like that is to have the heroes register and force them to go through training then so be it. Until someone comes up with a better idea, because the system that is there now does not seem to work and if you belive it does then you are deluding yourself.

 

[Trask]

You know this argument is devided into those that trust or are willing to give the government a chance and those who are unwilling or unable to trust the government.

Well for all of you that think that the heroes should not trust the government I have a question for you. Why should the government trust this so called "superheroes"?

 

[The Question]

Hey, I'm not saying the registration thing is perfect, but it makes sense as a response to a major influx of vigilante activity. Really, if a government were to deal with such a thing, that would be the best option.

 

[Vanguard07]

You know this argument is devided into those that trust or are willing to give the government a chance and those who are unwilling or unable to trust the government.

Well for all of you that think that the heroes should not trust the government I have a question for you. Why should the government trust this so called "superheroes"?

How many times have you seen US senators saving the world from Galactus? Or fighting supervillains and stopping them from taking hundreds of lives?

How many times have shield agents really accomplished anything against supervillains without a superhero present and helping them?

How many times have Government agents done things that are immoral/inethical/outright evil? (The sentinel program comes to mind. Also that whole business in the savage land in NA)

How much corruption is there in the Avengers?
Compare that to Corruption in the government.

Hell. How many times have Shield and other such government agencies failed to contain the villains that superheroes have incapacitated and delivered to their specially designed government super prisons?

In the marvel universe there's no reason at all to trust the government.
I honestly tried and I cant think of one.

 

[BrianWilly]

^Exactly.

 

[Trask]

How many times have you seen US senators saving the world from Galactus? Or fighting supervillains and stopping them from taking hundreds of lives?

It is not thier job to to save the world directly. Senators have thier own job to do and while it might not be as glamerous or high profile as heroes that does not mean the job does not need doing. Also only a few heroes were directly involved in the fight against Galactus.

How many times have shield agents really accomplished anything against supervillains without a superhero present and helping them?

This is what I dont get. Just because you dont see what they do you assume that they have not saved the world before. This is an organisation that fought with the Hand and Hydra. Just because Marvel does not give them enough exposure you assume they do nothing.

How many times have Government agents done things that are immoral/inethical/outright evil? (The sentinel program comes to mind. Also that whole business in the savage land in NA).

And how many times have heroes done things that are immoral/unethical or outright evil? Lets get something right, we dont know the whole story behind the savage land incident since we dont know who was really behind it. As for the Sentinel program what did you expect the government to do when mutants like Magnito and the Brotherhood of Evil are declaring war on the rest of the human race. Are they to sit back and leave the whole matter to the X-Men?

How much corruption is there in the Avengers?
Compare that to Corruption in the government.

It is all relative, for example right now there are 2 out of 8 members of the avengers that we know of. That is over 30% of the team, now are you telling me that is less that the perscentage of corruption in the government?

Hell. How many times have Shield and other such government agencies failed to contain the villains that superheroes have incapacitated and delivered to their specially designed government super prisons?

I will not accept that argument since it is something that is integral to both DC and Marvel world to allow heroes to fight the same villans again and again.

In the marvel universe there's no reason at all to trust the government.
I honestly tried and I cant think of one.

That is because of the fact that the only time we see the government is when they do something wrong or when something goes wrong. That would be like me taking everything the action of supervillans to support my argument for distrusting everyone with superpowers. I am sorry but how people can forgive and trust Wolverine, Wanda, Centry, Pietro and Hulk after all the crap they have done, but find it hard to trust the government becasue of the mistake of a few members of the organisation?

Again as I have said, come up with a better ulternative then. You cant truely expect the government to just let this continue happening.

 

[The Question]

How many times have shield agents really accomplished anything against supervillains without a superhero present and helping them?

Well, there we have to ask the question: What exactly is your definition of super hero? Captain America has stopped major terrorist and other threats several times. But on many of those occasions, he was serving as a special agent for the military and later S.H.E.I.L.D. Would you count that as a super hero win or a government win?

 

[BrianWilly]

I will not accept that argument since it is something that is integral to both DC and Marvel world to allow heroes to fight the same villans again and again.

How are you not "accepting" this argument? It is sound and logical and realistic. You can't ask for realism from one aspect of the comics and not give equal precedence to realism from another aspect.

Again as I have said, come up with a better ulternative then. You cant truely expect the government to just let this continue happening.

People have given you alternatives. You just don't like them.

This is the FACT: in the Marvel universe, the government has been shown to be consistently corrupt, untrustworthy, and antagonistic towards superpowered heroes. You can say it's because "That's the only time we ever see the government" all day long, but the fact is that if it is the only time we ever see the government then that's the only evidence we have to go by. Any sort of assumption that they wouldn't be corrupt and untrustworthy and antagonistic is just that: assumption. Without any sort of evidence or showing of SHIELD's competency in carrying out this sort of ambitious, rapidly slapped-together agenda of theirs, you're asking for a hell of a lot of blind faith from the heroes and from the readers.

 

[Trask]

How are you not "accepting" this argument? It is sound and logical and realistic. You can't ask for realism from one aspect of the comics and not give equal precedence to realism from another aspect.

The reason I said that is because it would not matter if it was the heroes or the goverment that was holding the villans prisoner, comic book fans want to see thier villans as much as thier heroes, so they can't exactly leave them imprisoned forever. It happens in DC comics, it happens in Marvel comics and it will keep happening no matter what else happens. So to use that as an argument to show that SHIELD or another government prison is incompitant is unfair.

People have given you alternatives. You just don't like them.

No you are giving me reasons why you think the registration act is a bad idea, you are not giving an alternative to the registration act besides wanting things to stay the same. The way things are right now is the problem, and until someone comes with a better idea than the registration act that is all we have.

This is the FACT: in the Marvel universe, the government has been shown to be consistently corrupt, untrustworthy, and antagonistic towards superpowered heroes. You can say it's because "That's the only time we ever see the government" all day long, but the fact is that if it is the only time we ever see the government then that's the only evidence we have to go by. Any sort of assumption that they wouldn't be corrupt and untrustworthy and antagonistic is just that: assumption. Without any sort of evidence or showing of SHIELD's competency in carrying out this sort of ambitious, rapidly slapped-together agenda of theirs, you're asking for a hell of a lot of blind faith from the heroes and from the readers.

You see I dont think that argument really works, because if the goverment was as corrupt as you are leading us to belive then the hereos have a bigger problem than just thier ID being made public record. Also if they are so corrupt why have they not just taken the list of super heroes from SHIELD already? What is stopping them?

The problem is Marvel prints comics about Heroes, so it is not surprising that when the government or other agencies are shown in the book they are shown as antagonists or opponents of the heroes, because lets face it what is the fun if there is no conflict. This does not mean that all or most of the government is corrupt. I mean you make distinctions between good Super powered individuals and bad super powered individuals but when it comes to the government you group them all up and see them as being corrupt.

Also we have seen the government where they have not been corrupt but no one remebers those incedents because they are not very interesting or memorable.

 

[Tropico]

Also we have seen the government where they have not been corrupt but no one remebers those incedents because they are not very interesting or memorable.

The same can be said of all the good actions heroes have made versus the very few errors they HAVE made. Vigilantism was fine before until they decided to vilify it with the recent events, All of the things that have precipitated the push for a registration act could just as NOT happened if Marvel hadn't decided that they wanted to tell this story. Marvel could just as well decided to keep the MU as it was going and you wouldn't have noticed, apart from the mutant registration act you probably wouldn't have thought that ALL vigilantes would have been added into this legislation. You ARE thinking it now because Marvel decided to make a story where it's plausible that vigilantes should be registered. There's the possibility that the story wraps up leaving the MU as it was before with an explanation as to why; bear in mind that from what we've seen from future solicitations this is NOT the case, there WILL be changes.

The funny thing is that Marvel has opened up Pandora's box with this issue and I don't see an outcome that will please both sides. If they go back to the status quo the people that suddenly realized how "realistic" and "logical" this registration is and that it should have been implemented before will be pissed. They will be moaning about how unrealistic Marvel is and that it was all big cop out. If the registration passes the opposing side will also complain. Anyway, we'll all probably complain in one way or another but keep buying the comics.

 

[Dread]

The same can be said of all the good actions heroes have made versus the very few errors they HAVE made. Vigilantism was fine before until they decided to vilify it with the recent events, All of the things that have precipitated the push for a registration act could just as NOT happened if Marvel hadn't decided that they wanted to tell this story. Marvel could just as well decided to keep the MU as it was going and you wouldn't have noticed, apart from the mutant registration act you probably wouldn't have thought that ALL vigilantes would have been added into this legislation. You ARE thinking it now because Marvel decided to make a story where it's plausible that vigilantes should be registered. There's the possibility that the story wraps up leaving the MU as it was before with an explanation as to why; bear in mind that from what we've seen from future solicitations this is NOT the case, there WILL be changes.

The funny thing is that Marvel has opened up Pandora's box with this issue and I don't see an outcome that will please both sides. If they go back to the status quo the people that suddenly realized how "realistic" and "logical" this registration is and that it should have been implemented before will be pissed. They will be moaning about how unrealistic Marvel is and that it was all big cop out. If the registration passes the opposing side will also complain. Anyway, we'll all probably complain in one way or another but keep buying the comics.

You mean...Marvel may write itself into a corner and not have a clear way out of it that pleases everyone and is rational? Lord, THAT's never happened before.

To be fair, I doubt Marvel WANTS to "please" everyone; quite the contrary, a climax that gets the MB's all flared up and sparks the ire of 50% of the fanbase will get then jittering because that "usually" brings better sales.

And also, if DEADLY GENESIS and other stories have proven anything, is that there's really nothing out there that Marvel can't retcon away. If the criticism REALLY gets bad, in a few years they can claim it was all the manipulation of Brainiac, who was inside Luthor's body for years manipulating events until...wait, no, that was JLU. Um, Wanda and Kang. One of them. Yeah.

 

[Tropico]

You mean...Marvel may write itself into a corner and not have a clear way out of it that pleases everyone and is rational? Lord, THAT's never happened before.

To be fair, I doubt Marvel WANTS to "please" everyone; quite the contrary, a climax that gets the MB's all flared up and sparks the ire of 50% of the fanbase will get then jittering because that "usually" brings better sales.

And also, if DEADLY GENESIS and other stories have proven anything, is that there's really nothing out there that Marvel can't retcon away. If the criticism REALLY gets bad, in a few years they can claim it was all the manipulation of Brainiac, who was inside Luthor's body for years manipulating events until...wait, no, that was JLU. Um, Wanda and Kang. One of them. Yeah.

LOL! I'm sure that Marvel's intent is exactly what's been happening, what we've been doing on these threads. I guess what I wanted to say in a roundabout way that we can all argue until we're blue in the face but it won't matter since it's Marvel's creative teams that decide what will happen. They've been doing a great job so far since the story has all, if not most of us, convinced that this is something that just HAD to happen.

What irks me the most is that people go on and on about realism but the truth of the matter is that they're only focusing on the line that Marvel fed them: Secret ID's and training. There SHOULD be other repercussions but it's very likely that we won't see them. Some of us have the notion that if you're gonna introduce reality that you shouldn't do it half assed, truth is these are comics and it'll never be completely real. They'll introduce those elements of reality that'll give the MU a jolt of freshness while overlooking the consequences or giving away a convenient explanation. Before people jump down my throat, be aware that this applies to making the registration go away too, after opening this can of worms they'll need a heck of an explanation to close it up again while everything remains the same (and it'll be extremely convenient also).

Blame Kang or Wanda? Nah, they've been getting too much attention of late and it would be predictable. I think it's time for clones, again. It's always fun to blame stuff on evil clones. Or, how about the Skrulls? Those kooky aliens have mucked with the government before and desperate Skrulls would make perfect sense with all that's happening in Anhiliation.up:

 

[Dread]

LOL! I'm sure that Marvel's intent is exactly what's been happening, what we've been doing on these threads. I guess what I wanted to say in a roundabout way that we can all argue until we're blue in the face but it won't matter since it's Marvel's creative teams that decide what will happen. They've been doing a great job so far since the story has all, if not most of us, convinced that this is something that just HAD to happen.

What irks me the most is that people go on and on about realism but the truth of the matter is that they're only focusing on the line that Marvel fed them: Secret ID's and training. There SHOULD be other repercussions but it's very likely that we won't see them. Some of us have the notion that if you're gonna introduce reality that you shouldn't do it half assed, truth is these are comics and it'll never be completely real. They'll introduce those elements of reality that'll give the MU a jolt of freshness while overlooking the consequences or giving away a convenient explanation. Before people jump down my throat, be aware that this applies to making the registration go away too, after opening this can of worms they'll need a heck of an explanation to close it up again while everything remains the same (and it'll be extremely convenient also).

Blame Kang or Wanda? Nah, they've been getting too much attention of late and it would be predictable. I think it's time for clones, again. It's always fun to blame stuff on evil clones. Or, how about the Skrulls? Those kooky aliens have mucked with the government before and desperate Skrulls would make perfect sense with all that's happening in Anhiliation.up:

In a way, it would. DC played with the ploy of having a few "random" mini events for a while before claiming they were ALL IC connected, why can't Marvel follow suit? I suppose the only problem is that at least according to the last sales figures, ANNIHILATION books aren't exactly selling like gangbusters. Most barely crack the Top 50 by the second issue, which is never a good sign. Granted, Marvel's done its usual game of not promoting them well, buuutt...

That's the problem with this kind of storyline, one that actually came up during JLU's previous season, which is why I brought it up. They built up a "JLU vs. the Government that sought a way to defend themselves" after a series of heroic "mishaps" and danger-warnings, including

- The league going from 7 to 60 overnight after the Thanagarian Invasion, complete with staff and a fleet of Javalins, essentially a floating army

- Learning that their orbital Watchtower base had a laser-canon that was essentially a WMD not unlike a nuke.

- The League becoming more involved with world affairs without going through proper channels, involving at least Korea and Casnia, as well as becoming more "pushy" in their mannerisms; all but kidnapping Green Arrow to get him to join, "sentencing" Doomsday to the Phantom Zone and overstepping "human" laws (most of the founding league acting as judge and jury basically, which appalled Batman), and Superman wrecking a charity city Luthor was making under "false" assumptions, leading in a brawl with, and resignation by, Capt. Marvel.

- The League contining to work with Hawkgirl, who many still saw as a "Thanagarian spy" after Starcrossed; pretty much the equalavent of the Avengers having some "former criminals" amung their ranks like Black Widow, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, even Wonder Man and Sandman (briefly).

Camdus was built up as a government response to the JLU and the threat of Superman after his own show ended (where he was brainwashed into attacking the Earth by Darkseid, hindering his PR ever since), which included cloning Supergirl, creating genetic "Ultimen" metahumans, torturing Question for stolen information, and so on. In the end, this "heroes vs. government" thing, which sparked LOTS of debate on the MB's when it was over, was revealed to basically be the ploy of Brainiac/Luthor. In a way, you could call it a "supervillian cop-out", much like Millar and Joe Q claim WON'T happen with CIVIL WAR. The problem? It was still entertaining. In fact, the twist made it even better. Marvel's editorial department seems not to be in the business of "entertaining" but on "inciting", on manipulating the emotions of their fanbase to get a lot of them seething mad, so mad that they buy all the books they can just to complain about them. Despite all the IC stuff, DC's event still ended in a by-the-basics, superhero vs. supervillian way; Marvel seems too "adult" to bother with that sort of thing anymore. "Point to the sales", Joe'd say. They HAVE to be doing something right. Of course, McDonalds outsells most gourmet steakhouses, too.

Stories like Camdus and CIVIL WAR can only go so far if you want to maintain the common conventions of the superhero genre, which include NOT having all your heroes simply acting as "super-agents" of the United States. CW makes for an interesting debate, but if the story goes too far into the deep end (with, say, Spider-Man revealing his ID on TV, and hero vs. hero brawls rocking the streets), the path to come back towards the conventions of Marvel becomes harder and more implausible. THAT is why JLU had the "supervillian cop-out"; without that would be a path of no return, where the adventures of the JLU that the audience loved would have to, at least very dramatically, be altered or end. I always find it amusing when TV shows and movies sometimes have a better grasp of what makes their heroic properties work better than the actual current comics. You won't see Spider-Man don a suit of armor, join the Avengers or live in a billionare's tower in SPIDER-MAN 3.

The only option, barring some future retcon or whatever, would be to not go back at all, but blaze into bold new territory not seen in over a generation, a Marvel U. that no longer follows in many of the traditions of not only the genre, but what people usually find fond about their comics, at least for the past 20-40 years. Marvel's tried this before, and lost big time -- anyone remember when Ben Rielly was "revealed" to be THE Spider-Man? That was blazing the bridges behind them and stepping into the blue. We know how that turned out. Spider-books in a way STILL haven't recovered.

Of course, with DC gaining steam with stories involving, well, some retcons and some bridge-burning themselves (along with, to be fair, an appreciation of their own history), one could say Marvel doing something simular was inevitable. Again, and it is worth repeating, CW is shaping up to be better than HOM was, even if it may be harder to come back from it once it runs its course.

Hence the problem of "event" storytelling; once its over, things fizzle and die without another, sort of like being addicted to heroin or something.