"If you outlaw heroes, then only outlaws will be heroes.."

[Trask]

I would be happy if they made even a little change. I mean we already know that SHIELD has the heroes ID, so at the end of CW they can just have SHIELD as keeping records of all the heroes, with new heroes having to be trained by groups such as the X-Men/Avengers or other qualified and approved groups before being allowed to go on active duty.

That should satisfy most people, and it would not be making a drastic change, all it would mean is you cant just have heroes poping into active duty as soon as they get thier powers. The heroes would still be independant of the government for the most part with SHIELD acting as a monitor and enforcer only when rules are broken by the heroes.

 

[Dread]

The question is, does Marvel want a happy medium, or are they in the mood to get people angry on MB's for sales?

 

[Tropico]

I would be happy if they made even a little change. I mean we already know that SHIELD has the heroes ID, so at the end of CW they can just have SHIELD as keeping records of all the heroes, with new heroes having to be trained by groups such as the X-Men/Avengers or other qualified and approved groups before being allowed to go on active duty.

That should satisfy most people, and it would not be making a drastic change, all it would mean is you cant just have heroes poping into active duty as soon as they get thier powers. The heroes would still be independant of the government for the most part with SHIELD acting as a monitor and enforcer only when rules are broken by the heroes.

SHIELD doesn't have ALL the ID's, it has SOME of the ID's, as far as I know.

The problem I have with the training and registration thing is that it takes away, IMO, from the wonder of the discovery of the powers and growth of the protagonist. If you suddenly get powers you immediately have to register. Stories of trying out your powers late at night or in a secluded place will still be possible but you'd have he shadow of SHIELD looming over you constantly. If you're a minor, you'd have to register AND probably get parental approval, unless the govt. provides some type of guardian which would be illegal anyway. So, now your parents know and what teenager wants to get told what to do and what not to do with cool new powers? You'd have to answer to your parents and the government. You would probably only be allowed to use your powers during training 'cause your parents would be concerned for what could happen to you. Here's a deeper question still: would the govt. provide for an inhibitor for your powers if your parents/guardians don't agree with your level of maturity/control of powers. What happens to those people that don't pass training? They get sent back to training; but what do they do meanwhile to make sure you don't use your powers because you think that you SHOULD have passed training? I admit, it makes for great "rebel-sticking-it-to-the-man" kinda stories. Otherwise, stories like Spidey's teenage years will be next to impossible.

 

[Trask]

SHIELD doesn't have ALL the ID's, it has SOME of the ID's, as far as I know.

The problem I have with the training and registration thing is that it takes away, IMO, from the wonder of the discovery of the powers and growth of the protagonist. If you suddenly get powers you immediately have to register. Stories of trying out your powers late at night or in a secluded place will still be possible but you'd have he shadow of SHIELD looming over you constantly. If you're a minor, you'd have to register AND probably get parental approval, unless the govt. provides some type of guardian which would be illegal anyway. So, now your parents know and what teenager wants to get told what to do and what not to do with cool new powers? You'd have to answer to your parents and the government. You would probably only be allowed to use your powers during training 'cause your parents would be concerned for what could happen to you. Here's a deeper question still: would the govt. provide for an inhibitor for your powers if your parents/guardians don't agree with your level of maturity/control of powers. What happens to those people that don't pass training? They get sent back to training; but what do they do meanwhile to make sure you don't use your powers because you think that you SHOULD have passed training? I admit, it makes for great "rebel-sticking-it-to-the-man" kinda stories. Otherwise, stories like Spidey's teenage years will be next to impossible.

You only register if you want to be a hero, and no one says you can't go and practice your powers somewhere secluded (mutants do it all the time). However if you want decide you want to be a hero then you have to apply to one of the training schools and once you graduate you are registered and can work as a super hero. I dont see how this is different that how X-Men used to be in the beginning.

Of course you have to get parental concent if you are under 16, but once you reach that age then it is like patient/doctor and they dont tell your parents. Since most mutants get their powers at around 16 anyway, and those that are not mutants dont really get thier power at a very young age most of the time it is not really a big deal. Also I think the disconfirt of a few young children being outed to thier parents is a small price to pay if it means preventing those kids from making mistakes and causing the death of others.

I dont think the government will force inhibitors on young people but they would be told the punishments for disobaing the law. As for those who fail the class, it would depend on thier instructor. If they feel that all they need is more time or another instructor then they can try and give them that, but if they realise they dont have what it takes then they can just fail them and tell them that if they still want to come back and try again after a year or so they should be given the chance.

As for those that continue to try to play hero after failing then the government would warn them to stop or put them in prison for a few months.

As for Spidey's young adventures being impossible, check out Ultimate, because it does not seem to affect him that much.

 

[3dman27]

remenber when was wondering whose tune maria hill was dancing to agenda wise does the name HENRY PETER GYRICH ring any bells?

 

[Tropico]

You only register if you want to be a hero, and no one says you can't go and practice your powers somewhere secluded (mutants do it all the time). However if you want decide you want to be a hero then you have to apply to one of the training schools and once you graduate you are registered and can work as a super hero. I dont see how this is different that how X-Men used to be in the beginning.

The reason that this legislation was called a "slippery slope" in the comics is because it's easy to say that it'll only apply to those that want to be heroes but after that it's real easy to expand it with lame excuses to include all post-human beings. If this is all about prevention and training, it seems contradictory that you can train yourself if you're not going to be a hero but you can't if you ARE going to be a hero. You can still cause damage to public property while training outside a facility even if you're not training to be a hero. You would have to be held accountable. You're gonna come back and answer that THEN the person should be registered so he/she can be held accountable. Does it still make sense to you that only vigilantes need register? BTW, Xavier's school purpose isn't making X-Men, it's teaching mutants how to control their powers and fit into society. Of course, the comics always shows the new people becoming X-Men but that doesn't change the fact that you don't HAVE to be an X-Man if you don't want to.

Of course you have to get parental concent if you are under 16, but once you reach that age then it is like patient/doctor and they dont tell your parents. Since most mutants get their powers at around 16 anyway, and those that are not mutants dont really get thier power at a very young age most of the time it is not really a big deal. Also I think the disconfirt of a few young children being outed to thier parents is a small price to pay if it means preventing those kids from making mistakes and causing the death of others.

I agree with you in the sense that the safety of young men and women AND society is paramount over their psychological comfort (to a certain extent). The thing is that that is a very "grown up" point of view and frankly doesn't sound like something that would make stories exciting or appealing to young teens.

Some things you got wrong...mutants can get their powers as soon as puberty manifests. That means that it can be as early as 11 years old, sometimes younger. Just because you can get a license to drive at 16 doesn't mean that you're equipped to handle all the resposibilities of being a hero and what being accountable would entail. You are legally still a minor until you're 18, for some things you have to be 21 to be considered an adult. I still don't see where you got the patient/doctor confidentiality thing. Still, you can't go to a doctor alone while still being a minor so it would still be until you're 18 (or 21, I can't remember if the doctor thing is one of those that's 21). Since all LEGAL documents have to be signed by your parents or LEGAL guardians your parents SHOULD know your post-human status unles you get powers after 18.


I dont think the government will force inhibitors on young people but they would be told the punishments for disobaing the law. As for those who fail the class, it would depend on thier instructor. If they feel that all they need is more time or another instructor then they can try and give them that, but if they realise they dont have what it takes then they can just fail them and tell them that if they still want to come back and try again after a year or so they should be given the chance.

As for those that continue to try to play hero after failing then the government would warn them to stop or put them in prison for a few months.

We could argue all day about that putting people in jail would be worse than putting inhibitors in them and vice versa. I can see the negative repercussions to both so I won't argue on the matter.

As for Spidey's young adventures being impossible, check out Ultimate, because it does not seem to affect him that much.

Where's Ultimate Spider Man's training? Where is he being accountable for property damage? Please don't use the Ultimate Universe to illustrate how the registration would be because it wouldn't be like that. Ultimate Fury already told Peter that when he's 18 his ass is SHIELD's wether he likes it or not. SHIELD has used Peter's loved ones as bait to capture criminals. If the registration is enacted in a half-assed way, not much should change in the MU; it might even be something similar to the Ultrimateverse. But that just raises the question of why making the registration at all and why try to make the 616-verse more like the Ultimateverse when so many people have said that they prefer the 2 universes stay apart and distinct?

 

[Dread]

Where's Ultimate Spider Man's training? Where is he being accountable for property damage? Please don't use the Ultimate Universe to illustrate how the registration would be because it wouldn't be like that. Ultimate Fury already told Peter that when he's 18 his ass is SHIELD's wether he likes it or not. SHIELD has used Peter's loved ones as bait to capture criminals. If the registration is enacted in a half-assed way, not much should change in the MU; it might even be something similar to the Ultrimateverse. But that just raises the question of why making the registration at all and why try to make the 616-verse more like the Ultimateverse when so many people have said that they prefer the 2 universes stay apart and distinct?

Because Marvel doesn't listen to what people want. Us fanboys are "unpleasable", right? By keeping to the drumbeat that not only can't you please fans, but SHOULDN'T TRY, that means Marvel's free to do whatever if it means sales.

It would be a bad idea, IMO, to make 616 more like Ultimate, for a multitude of reasons. The biggest being that keeping the two distinct allows Marvel to have its cake and eat it too; one universe is "uber realistic" and appeals to more moderate or "newer" fans (or longtime fans ready for a break), and 616 is for the hardcore audience, which is the audience that is most reliable (DC's all but given up on mysterious "new readers" who never arise, and is gearing their line directly to hardcore DC fans; the results have made them as competitive as they've ever been).

 

[Tropico]

Because Marvel doesn't listen to what people want. Us fanboys are "unpleasable", right? By keeping to the drumbeat that not only can't you please fans, but SHOULDN'T TRY, that means Marvel's free to do whatever if it means sales.

It would be a bad idea, IMO, to make 616 more like Ultimate, for a multitude of reasons. The biggest being that keeping the two distinct allows Marvel to have its cake and eat it too; one universe is "uber realistic" and appeals to more moderate or "newer" fans (or longtime fans ready for a break), and 616 is for the hardcore audience, which is the audience that is most reliable (DC's all but given up on mysterious "new readers" who never arise, and is gearing their line directly to hardcore DC fans; the results have made them as competitive as they've ever been).

I think that Marvel has been trying to keep the 2 universes apart. Even the UFF/FF crossover was NOT what people thought it was going to be and a lot of crow had to be eaten by a lot of people. Marvel appears to, FOR THE MOMENT, be aware of being able to have their cake and eat it too.

The arguments people have been putting up for the registration and what we've concretely seen in CW and the few crossovers would seem to indicate that this would be very different than the Ultimateverse. And well it should be, mostly because of the implications the SHRA should have and because it would keep both universes with their own flavor even though it would give the illusion that the 616 universe is taking a step towards its Ultimate counterpart.

 

[Trask]

The reason that this legislation was called a "slippery slope" in the comics is because it's easy to say that it'll only apply to those that want to be heroes but after that it's real easy to expand it with lame excuses to include all post-human beings. If this is all about prevention and training, it seems contradictory that you can train yourself if you're not going to be a hero but you can't if you ARE going to be a hero. You can still cause damage to public property while training outside a facility even if you're not training to be a hero. You would have to be held accountable. You're gonna come back and answer that THEN the person should be registered so he/she can be held accountable. Does it still make sense to you that only vigilantes need register? BTW, Xavier's school purpose isn't making X-Men, it's teaching mutants how to control their powers and fit into society. Of course, the comics always shows the new people becoming X-Men but that doesn't change the fact that you don't HAVE to be an X-Man if you don't want to.

1) Using the "Slippery slope" argument does not make sence to me. If everyone used that argument then no one would reach any agreement since no side would be willing to compromise and reach an agreement. Government is not about giving everyone what they want but giving enough for each group so that they can all live with it.

2) Registering all super powered people is not acceptable becase they did not choose to have those powers, but registering those that decide to use thier power in dangerous and distructive manners on a regular bases (even if it is helping others) makes perfect sence.

3) Well Xavier's school is also used to train future X-Men, as well as those that might decide not to become X-Men. Also no one said that all the people who go for hero training will decide to be heroes. They might change thier mind or decide it is not for them.

I agree with you in the sense that the safety of young men and women AND society is paramount over their psychological comfort (to a certain extent). The thing is that that is a very "grown up" point of view and frankly doesn't sound like something that would make stories exciting or appealing to young teens.

I dont see how you can say it would make the stories less exciting and appealing to young teens. The quality of the stories in the end depends on a good writer more than anything else.

Some things you got wrong...mutants can get their powers as soon as puberty manifests. That means that it can be as early as 11 years old, sometimes younger. Just because you can get a license to drive at 16 doesn't mean that you're equipped to handle all the resposibilities of being a hero and what being accountable would entail. You are legally still a minor until you're 18, for some things you have to be 21 to be considered an adult. I still don't see where you got the patient/doctor confidentiality thing. Still, you can't go to a doctor alone while still being a minor so it would still be until you're 18 (or 21, I can't remember if the doctor thing is one of those that's 21). Since all LEGAL documents have to be signed by your parents or LEGAL guardians your parents SHOULD know your post-human status unles you get powers after 18.

1) In the comics mutants have been shown to get their powers at around 16, I dont think I have seen one being shown as getting thier power as early as 11. It might just be that they dont want to show children that young with powers.

2) Well moving up the age to start training to 18 is not a bad thing, after all what parent wants to get a phone call telling them that thier 16 year old child was killed while fighting criminals in a costume. Can you imagine what it would have done to her if Peter died at the start of his hero carrer.

3) You can join the US Army at 17 (with parental concent) so they could use the same rules as that. And if your parents dont know you are a mutant by then, they must not be paying a lot of attention (or the child is good at hiding it).

4) I thought at 16 you had total Patient/Doctor confidentiality. Well I could be wrong but since you still need parental concent to join the army at 17 the point is moot.

We could argue all day about that putting people in jail would be worse than putting inhibitors in them and vice versa. I can see the negative repercussions to both so I won't argue on the matter.

Well they could be given the choice, but the main point is to prevent children (because most of them will be children) from abusing thier powers.

Where's Ultimate Spider Man's training? Where is he being accountable for property damage? Please don't use the Ultimate Universe to illustrate how the registration would be because it wouldn't be like that. Ultimate Fury already told Peter that when he's 18 his ass is SHIELD's wether he likes it or not. SHIELD has used Peter's loved ones as bait to capture criminals. If the registration is enacted in a half-assed way, not much should change in the MU; it might even be something similar to the Ultrimateverse. But that just raises the question of why making the registration at all and why try to make the 616-verse more like the Ultimateverse when so many people have said that they prefer the 2 universes stay apart and distinct?

The reason I used Ultimate Spider Man was to point out that it would be possible for spider man to do his job even if the government knows his ID. I mean SHIELD is a US government agency in Ultimate and one of its main jobs was dealing with superhumans (non-mutants). And while they have not trained Peter, they have kept an eye on him and supported him whenever he needed help without him having to ask for it. I mean they helped him when he was shot, when Norman and the rest of the gang escaped they gave his family protection. Who has the 616 peter ever had looking out for him?

But as you sayed I probably should not compare the two worlds, but I dont see registration making the two worlds the same.

 

[Darth Hyperion]

First I would like to say that Captian America was the best choice for the hero that dissagrees with the SHRA. Cap represnts everything the act wishes to achive. Not only was Cap trainned by the government but he has been their poster boy for decades. Him dissagreeing with the act is just a sign of how dangerous it can become. As mentioned earlier it can easily snowball into attemting to regeister every super powered being in the MU. My biggest problem with the SHRA is when you start working for someone else and not yourself. It is no longer about your goals or reasons, its about your employers. Some heroes came to be because they chose to deal with the thing that the government overlooked or didn't care about as Spiderman said himself.


The SHRA is not a bad idea by any means, but the MU government is not looking at the flip side of the whole thing. What if the act causes some of the most revered heroes in MU to call it quits. Who's gonna step up then. Then think about the future. What about that uber powerful child that's born that because of not wanting to feel controlled hides his gifts from the world or even worse turns to villiany. What are they gonna do about that?

 

[Tropico]

1) Using the "Slippery slope" argument does not make sence to me. If everyone used that argument then no one would reach any agreement since no side would be willing to compromise and reach an agreement. Government is not about giving everyone what they want but giving enough for each group so that they can all live with it.
The heroes DON'T have to agree with it. Did you see what happened when Capt. America didn't? The slippery slope comment might not make any sense to you but it's already being addressed by the writers through the characters that have mentioned it.

2) Registering all super powered people is not acceptable becase they did not choose to have those powers, but registering those that decide to use thier power in dangerous and distructive manners on a regular bases (even if it is helping others) makes perfect sence.
They didn't choose to have powers but they're still liable to cause property damage and misuse their powers. They don't HAVE to use their powers intentionally, their powers can flare out of control because of different situations. It's happened before and we've seen it mostly in the X-Men where someone gets picked up because their powers are dangerous or have hurt themselves. The Sentry probably doesn't want to be a superhero anymore, but do you really think the government ISN'T going to register him?

3) Well Xavier's school is also used to train future X-Men, as well as those that might decide not to become X-Men. Also no one said that all the people who go for hero training will decide to be heroes. They might change thier mind or decide it is not for them.
I already addressed the X-Men thing. I'll look at the rest of your answer as agreeing that there is a possibility that the government would want to train ALL post-humans so they're not a danger to themselves or others.

I dont see how you can say it would make the stories less exciting and appealing to young teens. The quality of the stories in the end depends on a good writer more than anything else.
I agree with you. Does Marvel have all good writers, though?

1) In the comics mutants have been shown to get their powers at around 16, I dont think I have seen one being shown as getting thier power as early as 11. It might just be that they dont want to show children that young with powers.
Artie, Leech, Power Pack, Bruiser, Shadowcat (Kitty Pryde), Franklin Richards, Wolfsbane, etc. There's a bunch of kids that have powers by mutation or other means that are heroes and are (or were) under the age of 16.

2) Well moving up the age to start training to 18 is not a bad thing, after all what parent wants to get a phone call telling them that thier 16 year old child was killed while fighting criminals in a costume. Can you imagine what it would have done to her if Peter died at the start of his hero carrer.3) You can join the US Army at 17 (with parental concent) so they could use the same rules as that. And if your parents dont know you are a mutant by then, they must not be paying a lot of attention (or the child is good at hiding it).4) I thought at 16 you had total Patient/Doctor confidentiality. Well I could be wrong but since you still need parental concent to join the army at 17 the point is moot.
I'm not saying that they shouldn't get trained before 18. Heck, if they're gonna pass the SHRA they better start training them as soon as they find out they have powers! It's safer that way! If sponsored by the government it'd be reckless on their part to endanger them in the streets before an age where normal humans aren't even sent to war. After 18 it also makes it easier if there are any legal matters to clear up that only the post-human, and not his parents, is involved.

The reason I used Ultimate Spider Man was to point out that it would be possible for spider man to do his job even if the government knows his ID. I mean SHIELD is a US government agency in Ultimate and one of its main jobs was dealing with superhumans (non-mutants). And while they have not trained Peter, they have kept an eye on him and supported him whenever he needed help without him having to ask for it. I mean they helped him when he was shot, when Norman and the rest of the gang escaped they gave his family protection. Who has the 616 peter ever had looking out for him?

But as you sayed I probably should not compare the two worlds, but I dont see registration making the two worlds the same.

The thing about the Ultimateverse is that they don't allow for genetically altered beings, they're illegal. That's the main focus of the "Sinister Six" mini. But, anyway, you get the point.

 

[3dman27]

The thing about the Ultimateverse is that they don't allow for genetically altered beings, they're illegal. That's the main focus of the "Sinister Six" mini. But, anyway, you get the point.

i don't quite follow

 

[Trask]

The heroes DON'T have to agree with it. Did you see what happened when Capt. America didn't? The slippery slope comment might not make any sense to you but it's already being addressed by the writers through the characters that have mentioned it.

1) Capt. America is in a unique position, because he is already an agent of SHIELD. Now I dont know his full relationship with SHIELD but if an agent disobays a direct order from a superior he is going to get arrested. No one forced him to become a SHIELD agent, and he has used his status as a SHIELD agent to his advantage a number of times before. He cant just suddenly decide to disobay them because he does not like it.

2) I dont think Capt. America objected so much to the act, but to being made to hunt down the heroes.

3) I dont even know why the hell SHIELD was involved in the whole thing since they are a UN force and not a US force. What the hell are all the other countries doing while the US is using SHIELD as its own private force?

They didn't choose to have powers but they're still liable to cause property damage and misuse their powers. They don't HAVE to use their powers intentionally, their powers can flare out of control because of different situations. It's happened before and we've seen it mostly in the X-Men where someone gets picked up because their powers are dangerous or have hurt themselves. The Sentry probably doesn't want to be a superhero anymore, but do you really think the government ISN'T going to register him?

1) Registration would not solve that problem, they would still have those problems even if they are registered. It would make more sence to set up schools to give them training to learn to control thier powers. Maybe set up a weekend or afterschool classes for mutants to learn to control thier powers or to talk to other adult mutants about what it means to be a mutant.

2) Lets be fair the Sentry is an oddity and an exception (like Doc Strange). Do you think the superheroes would not keep an eye on him either if he left the avengers. They tried letting him go and forgetting about him last time and as shown that did not work out too well.

I already addressed the X-Men thing. I'll look at the rest of your answer as agreeing that there is a possibility that the government would want to train ALL post-humans so they're not a danger to themselves or others.

Well not force them but encourage them. I think I covered it on the above statment.

I agree with you. Does Marvel have all good writers, though?

Well, nothing we can do about that...

Artie, Leech, Power Pack, Bruiser, Shadowcat (Kitty Pryde), Franklin Richards, Wolfsbane, etc. There's a bunch of kids that have powers by mutation or other means that are heroes and are (or were) under the age of 16.

Yea but where they as young as 11 (Besided Franklin, those Richards family just like to do everything different).

I'm not saying that they shouldn't get trained before 18. Heck, if they're gonna pass the SHRA they better start training them as soon as they find out they have powers! It's safer that way! If sponsored by the government it'd be reckless on their part to endanger them in the streets before an age where normal humans aren't even sent to war. After 18 it also makes it easier if there are any legal matters to clear up that only the post-human, and not his parents, is involved.

It would also mean others like the X-Men would be prevented from using those under the age of 18 (which they have done before without the parents knowledge or parmission) in their adventrures, which is a good thing.

The thing about the Ultimateverse is that they don't allow for genetically altered beings, they're illegal. That's the main focus of the "Sinister Six" mini. But, anyway, you get the point.

That is not true, after all Cap. America / Spiderman / Daredevil and others are genetically altered. What is not allowed is for individuals to genetically alter themselves (it is against the law), but that does not mean those who are accidently or forcefully altered are subject to being arrested. If you think about it, it makes perfect sence, there is a law against cloning a human being in the real world so why is it difficult to understand that there might be a law against genetic alteration in comics?

Just so I know how much more work I need to do, am I convincing you that some kind of registration act is a good idea?

 

[Tropico]

1) Capt. America is in a unique position, because he is already an agent of SHIELD. Now I dont know his full relationship with SHIELD but if an agent disobays a direct order from a superior he is going to get arrested. No one forced him to become a SHIELD agent, and he has used his status as a SHIELD agent to his advantage a number of times before. He cant just suddenly decide to disobay them because he does not like it.

Like I said before, the whole situation escalated from a hypothetical situation since Miss Hill asked Cap if he would do it IF the SHRA passed. The situation didn't come to pass yet and yet he was attacked for not being in favor.

2) I dont think Capt. America objected so much to the act, but to being made to hunt down the heroes.

Cap is the one that makes the statement that if the government becomes their boss it won't be long before they're telling them WHO the bad guys are. YOU probably don't see any problem with that, I and others do since we're in the belief that the MU government DOES have it's manipulative side.

1) Registration would not solve that problem, they would still have those problems even if they are registered. It would make more sence to set up schools to give them training to learn to control thier powers. Maybe set up a weekend or afterschool classes for mutants to learn to control thier powers or to talk to other adult mutants about what it means to be a mutant.

Compulsory registration of all superpowered individuals would be a hell of an effective preventative measure to avoid rampaging newbies. It would also be a super effective way of knowing what potential villains' capabilities are before they're even formed. C'mon dude! Think sneaky like SHIELD!

2) Lets be fair the Sentry is an oddity and an exception (like Doc Strange). Do you think the superheroes would not keep an eye on him either if he left the avengers. They tried letting him go and forgetting about him last time and as shown that did not work out too well.

Exceptions can grow to become the norm or used to illustrate why they should register potential "Sentries" as they manifest their powers. I get your point, but it's still compulsory registration and that puts the foot in the door.

Yea but where they as young as 11 (Besided Franklin, those Richards family just like to do everything different).

Yes, sir, they still are; particularly Artie and Leech. I don't remember Bruiser's age, she's the youngest kid from Runaways and she's a mutant. Power Pack has kids well under 11 even though they're not mutants they're still superpowered individuals.

It would also mean others like the X-Men would be prevented from using those under the age of 18 (which they have done before without the parents knowledge or parmission) in their adventrures, which is a good thing.

Real world-wise it's a good thing. Story-wise it's not a good thing.

That is not true, after all Cap. America / Spiderman / Daredevil and others are genetically altered. What is not allowed is for individuals to genetically alter themselves (it is against the law), but that does not mean those who are accidently or forcefully altered are subject to being arrested. If you think about it, it makes perfect sence, there is a law against cloning a human being in the real world so why is it difficult to understand that there might be a law against genetic alteration in comics?

Gene manipulation is illegal in the real world, too. Ultimate Captain America was a conscious effort at making a super-soldier he belongs to SHIELD. Spider Man, although he's jumping around on his own (arguably), is still an illegal genetically enhanced post-human as Fury himself let him know. When he turns 18 he WILL be induicted into the Ultimates. They just let him go around. I can't remember if UDD's abilities were purely due to martial arts training or if they were superhuman. You forgot the Hulk! Well, we've clearly seen what the government has done to Dr. Banner; but there are other circumstances surrounding him since U-Hulk is a mass muderer/cannibal. Mutants are also supposed to fall into SHIELD's jurisdiction, but they instead drop them off at Xavier's as we've recently seen.

Just so I know how much more work I need to do, am I convincing you that some kind of registration act is a good idea?

Not really. Look, I can give you a list of advantages people haven't mentioned to the SHRA. It's not that I don't see what "advantages" there are to the SHRA, it's just that I see that the potential for it doing harm is greater than the benefits. If you go about this realistically and logically you'd see that the ramifications to the heroes being federal agents are far reaching and should completely change the way hero comics would be written in the Marvel Universe. Now, what in reality will happen is that Marvel goes about doing this conveniently half-assed. NOW Ult, Spidey comes in as a great example. Peter Park is an illegal superhuman, EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T ASK FOR IT, but we still see him having adventures similar to his 616 counterpart, CONVENIENTLY. They have side-stepped what should really happen so that they CAN tell exciting Spidey stories.

Now, the SHRA is supposed to be more strict than what they're putting Ult. Spidey through. They would have to follow procedure to aprehend criminals. They should fill reports and warrants. They should wait for other public servants and fill the report with them so they can take the prisoner away. The story of your favorite hero as the underdog should be practically a thing of the past since they would have to wait for backup so what happened with the New Warriors shouldn't happen like many of you so like to point out. Like I've said before, the story of the budding hero on the road to discovery would be something supervised by a training staff. Things like that are the realistic and logical outcomes of the SHRA if you're objective enough to think about it and analyze from different points of view.

What will probably happen? It'll all be a thing of convenience and they'll say that the heroes are now registered and maybe a few of the comics will show the hero gettin some extra training. Maybe not even that, maybe they'll just say that they had a hell of a week in training as a thought bubble or speaking with someone else or something. It would be something in the background. It would appease those people that want more "realism" in their comics while leaving comics pretty much the same way they were before. What's wrong with that? It's convenient. It's half-assed lazy writing and making a big deal about nothing. But most of all, it's NOT real and it wouldn't follow "logic", comic "logic" or otherwise.

 

[roach]

3) I dont even know why the hell SHIELD was involved in the whole thing since they are a UN force and not a US force. What the hell are all the other countries doing while the US is using SHIELD as its own private force?

This is a major problem for me too. I also want to see why the X-men are involved since they already work for the Government(unless that was just dropped and not dealt with)

 

[Trask]

Like I said before, the whole situation escalated from a hypothetical situation since Miss Hill asked Cap if he would do it IF the SHRA passed. The situation didn't come to pass yet and yet he was attacked for not being in favor.

The way I saw that encounter was that she acted the way she did because he was disobaying a direct order. Now she might have over reacted, but she probably knew that if she let him go he would go underground and be a ralling call for others.

Cap is the one that makes the statement that if the government becomes their boss it won't be long before they're telling them WHO the bad guys are. YOU probably don't see any problem with that, I and others do since we're in the belief that the MU government DOES have it's manipulative side.

That statement from Cap sounded a bit hollow to me, knowing that he has worked for the government a number of times before and has had no problem with it. He was an active member of SHIELD at the time for gods sake. If he felt so strong about government not telling heroes who to fight why the hell has he been working for them for so long? It would have had more of an inpact on me if it had been made by someone else, but Cap.

Also MU government is not the only one who is manipulative. Have you read Illuminati? How come no one has a problem with a few heroes making decision for the whole world but as soon as it is the elected government making the decision everyone is up in arms? Look what they did to Banner, if the government had done that everyone would be using that as an argument against trusting the government. Also look how the whole hero community closed rank and kept what happened in the whole "House of M" from any non-heroes, including the government. Does no one else see this as the heroes having to much power and not being accountable to anyone else in the world?

Compulsory registration of all superpowered individuals would be a hell of an effective preventative measure to avoid rampaging newbies. It would also be a super effective way of knowing what potential villains' capabilities are before they're even formed. C'mon dude! Think sneaky like SHIELD!

Technically the first time they would know about a mutants power is when he goes on a rampage so that would not help as it would always be too late. Unless the government gets something like Ceribro and actively searches for mutants the registration of ordanary mutants would be useless. Also SHIELD does not need a registration act to keep a record of mutants the same way it did not need the coming act to keep a record of the heroes.

Exceptions can grow to become the norm or used to illustrate why they should register potential "Sentries" as they manifest their powers. I get your point, but it's still compulsory registration and that puts the foot in the door.

What I am saying is people like the Sentries are kept on record weather the act is passed or not, since they are seen as unstable and just too powerful. You think the New Avengers would not keep a close eye on the Sentry if he decides to leave the Avengers also? As I said people like the Sentry and even Wanda are deemed dangerous enough that someone will always keep an eye on them, both heroes and government.

Gene manipulation is illegal in the real world, too. Ultimate Captain America was a conscious effort at making a super-soldier he belongs to SHIELD. Spider Man, although he's jumping around on his own (arguably), is still an illegal genetically enhanced post-human as Fury himself let him know. When he turns 18 he WILL be induicted into the Ultimates. They just let him go around. I can't remember if UDD's abilities were purely due to martial arts training or if they were superhuman. You forgot the Hulk! Well, we've clearly seen what the government has done to Dr. Banner; but there are other circumstances surrounding him since U-Hulk is a mass muderer/cannibal. Mutants are also supposed to fall into SHIELD's jurisdiction, but they instead drop them off at Xavier's as we've recently seen.

SHIELD's main objective is to deal with illegal genetically enhanced humans. They only deal with mutants when they are deemed too dangerous or out of control for anyone else to deal with. The way I see it SHIELD is a by-product of the Super Soldier experiment. When Ultimates first started I got the impression that SHIELD's overriding objective was to oversee all the projects that were tring to re-create the Super Soldier formula, whose outcome resulted in the creation of GG/Hulk/Giantmen/Sandman/Electro and the rest. As for Hulk I am not surprised they tried to kill him after what he did (especially when we found out that Banner did it knowing what would happen). Heck I am surprised they did not try the same thing in 616 universe, he is resposible for the deaths of over 1,000 innocent people (some of those children), if that does not deserve a death penality I dont know what does.

Not really. Look, I can give you a list of advantages people haven't mentioned to the SHRA. It's not that I don't see what "advantages" there are to the SHRA, it's just that I see that the potential for it doing harm is greater than the benefits. If you go about this realistically and logically you'd see that the ramifications to the heroes being federal agents are far reaching and should completely change the way hero comics would be written in the Marvel Universe. Now, what in reality will happen is that Marvel goes about doing this conveniently half-assed. NOW Ult, Spidey comes in as a great example. Peter Park is an illegal superhuman, EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T ASK FOR IT, but we still see him having adventures similar to his 616 counterpart, CONVENIENTLY. They have side-stepped what should really happen so that they CAN tell exciting Spidey stories.

Technically they have shown SHIELD as keeping a close and active watch on Spiderman, even sending him help when he is in big trouble. Fury is probably giving him some space as a form of training and to see what he can do. The only other alternative is bringing him in to join the ultimates (which could be a public relation problem since he is only 16), or arresting him which would just make him hostile against SHIELD.

Now, the SHRA is supposed to be more strict than what they're putting Ult. Spidey through. They would have to follow procedure to aprehend criminals. They should fill reports and warrants. They should wait for other public servants and fill the report with them so they can take the prisoner away. The story of your favorite hero as the underdog should be practically a thing of the past since they would have to wait for backup so what happened with the New Warriors shouldn't happen like many of you so like to point out. Like I've said before, the story of the budding hero on the road to discovery would be something supervised by a training staff. Things like that are the realistic and logical outcomes of the SHRA if you're objective enough to think about it and analyze from different points of view.

Ahhh paperwork, a hero's worst enemy. If they are working for an agency like SHIELD they would not need warrents, heck even regular cops dont need warrents to arrest supervillans or wanted criminals.

The Avengers have been a sanctioned agency of the government and the UN and that did not change thier adventures too much. You did not see them making out reports and waiting for warrents instead of doing what they do.

It would not distroy the stories of budding heroes, it would just make it different to the ones we have been getting for the past, what, 40 years or so. That is not always a bad thing.

 

[Tropico]

The way I saw that encounter was that she acted the way she did because he was disobaying a direct order. Now she might have over reacted, but she probably knew that if she let him go he would go underground and be a ralling call for others.

He refused to lead the Avengers to arrest the dissenters. The Avengers isn't SHIELD's and Cap, even though he might have ties to SHIELD, doesn't have any right to lead them as a force for SHIELD. Since he's the one with cleareance to MAKE the team the most he can do is disband them. She sayd that she's asking him to "obey the will of the people", the thing is that the "will of the people" won't be heard until a few months when the motion is carried and made law. So what if he's a rallying cry for others? I thought the first ammendment gave you the right to voice your opinion

That statement from Cap sounded a bit hollow to me, knowing that he has worked for the government a number of times before and has had no problem with it. He was an active member of SHIELD at the time for gods sake. If he felt so strong about government not telling heroes who to fight why the hell has he been working for them for so long? It would have had more of an inpact on me if it had been made by someone else, but Cap.

This wouldn't be the first time Cap has severed ties with the government, you ARE aware of that, right?

Doesn't seem to me like Cap is exactly an agent of SHIELD or quite what the registration would call for if they're asking HIM to go legit, does it?

Also MU government is not the only one who is manipulative. Have you read Illuminati? How come no one has a problem with a few heroes making decision for the whole world but as soon as it is the elected government making the decision everyone is up in arms? Look what they did to Banner, if the government had done that everyone would be using that as an argument against trusting the government. Also look how the whole hero community closed rank and kept what happened in the whole "House of M" from any non-heroes, including the government. Does no one else see this as the heroes having to much power and not being accountable to anyone else in the world?

Sigh, you're gonna argue against the heroes for one incident versus a bunch of things the govt. has done? Do you even acknowledge that some of the Illuminati realized they're wrong while the government always thinks they're right? Dude, they're even keeping the House of M thing from the heroes that aren't aware of it. Let me know if it sounds hypocritical if I tell you "If the governement keeps things from the hero community, shouldn't the hero community keep things from the government?".

Also SHIELD does not need a registration act to keep a record of mutants the same way it did not need the coming act to keep a record of the heroes.

No, they just invade people's privacy like they did with the meeting the heroes had to talk about the SHRA. Please don't bring up arguments or excuses for them, I know that you're in favor of the government doing anything in the MU. If it were the real world people would somehow gotten knowledge that the government is spyin on them and fight back like what's been happening in the US.

Technically they have shown SHIELD as keeping a close and active watch on Spiderman, even sending him help when he is in big trouble. Fury is probably giving him some space as a form of training and to see what he can do. The only other alternative is bringing him in to join the ultimates (which could be a public relation problem since he is only 16), or arresting him which would just make him hostile against SHIELD.

"Form of training"? Going around without any kind of training at all? Do you even look at the stuff you type? Public relations problem? Not really, they could stick him in the covert side of the Ultimates like they had Black Widow and Hawkeye. The people don't HAVE to know he's an agent from what we've seen. Arresting him would make him hostile against SHIELD? There was a guy around here that said "The discomfort of a few young children is a small price to pay if it means preventing those kids from making mistakes and causing the death of others" and it wasn't me.

It would not distroy the stories of budding heroes, it would just make it different to the ones we have been getting for the past, what, 40 years or so. That is not always a bad thing.

I didn't say that they would be dEstroyed I said "the story of the budding hero on the road to discovery would be something supervised by a training staff."

 

[Trask]

He refused to lead the Avengers to arrest the dissenters. The Avengers isn't SHIELD's and Cap, even though he might have ties to SHIELD, doesn't have any right to lead them as a force for SHIELD. Since he's the one with cleareance to MAKE the team the most he can do is disband them. She sayd that she's asking him to "obey the will of the people", the thing is that the "will of the people" won't be heard until a few months when the motion is carried and made law. So what if he's a rallying cry for others? I thought the first ammendment gave you the right to voice your opinion

She is a soldier and of course she wants the Avengers on their side. There have been a number of times when the Avengers have worked with SHIELD and I dont see how what she is asking is any different. What he is objecting to is arresting heroes for refusing to register.

They are rushing the bill and it should be carried over into law in a matter of weeks rather than months, and they want to be prepared to go into action as soon as it is made law.

Cap has always stayed out of politics for a reason. He is an icon for many of what is America (he wears the flag for heavens sake). Him being a ralling cry could and will cause a war to break out and that was what she was tring to prevent. Her job is to ensure the law is enforced with as little casualty as possible and having Cap and the Avengers on their side would have made the process much less violent.

This wouldn't be the first time Cap has severed ties with the government, you ARE aware of that, right?

Doesn't seem to me like Cap is exactly an agent of SHIELD or quite what the registration would call for if they're asking HIM to go legit, does it?

Yea but he keeps going back to work for them so I dont know what to tell you. Also he uses the power he has with his rank as a SHIELD operative to assemble the New Avengers. He is still an agent of SHIELD, he tries to order the people to stand down and disobay their supperior in the next page of that very comic.

Sigh, you're gonna argue against the heroes for one incident versus a bunch of things the govt. has done? Do you even acknowledge that some of the Illuminati realized they're wrong while the government always thinks they're right? Dude, they're even keeping the House of M thing from the heroes that aren't aware of it. Let me know if it sounds hypocritical if I tell you "If the governement keeps things from the hero community, shouldn't the hero community keep things from the government?".

1) They might not have told every hero, but they have told some of them, like Cap. America and Iron Man who did not remember the incident. This is an event that effected the whole world but they decided to keep it a secret and that no one but the heroes need to know what happened. What happens if Wanda looses it again?

2) The Illuminati is not the only time. I am sure there have been a lot of times that heroes have done questionable stuff and decided to keep it from the government. It is just that we are meant to be on the side of the heroes so that even when they do that we come out on the heroes side.

3) The Illuminati never realize they are wrong, they just break up because they could not agree on some items. Namor left when the rest voted to have Hulk sent into space and Strange and Blackbolt left when they disagreed with the rigistration and Prof X is just not there due to loosing his powers. They never admit what they are doing is wrong (except maybe Namor, and I dont know if he would have felt the same way if he had won that vote on the Hulk matter).

4) I dont mind you saying "If the governement keeps things from the hero community, shouldn't the hero community keep things from the government?", but then you cant use the argument that the Government is untrustworthy and the heroes are trustworthy. I mean why should the government trust the heroes and let them run free with no laws or rules to govern them.

5) The government is a lawfully elected leader of the country, and if the people and government feel that they can not trust the heroes unreservedly any more and they want laws and rules instituted to govern them then that is the way the world works.

No, they just invade people's privacy like they did with the meeting the heroes had to talk about the SHRA. Please don't bring up arguments or excuses for them, I know that you're in favor of the government doing anything in the MU. If it were the real world people would somehow gotten knowledge that the government is spyin on them and fight back like what's been happening in the US.

I am not in favor of the government doing anything in the MU universe, I am just not in favor of the heroes doing anything they want in the MU universe. Do you not think that DD is not invading people's privacy when he uses his hearing to listen in on peoples conversation, how about Prof X when he is looking through peoples minds.

The US government does spy on its own people and that is nothing new, especially after 9/11. You dont see people rising up in arms and marching on Washington.

"Form of training"? Going around without any kind of training at all? Do you even look at the stuff you type? Public relations problem? Not really, they could stick him in the covert side of the Ultimates like they had Black Widow and Hawkeye. The people don't HAVE to know he's an agent from what we've seen. Arresting him would make him hostile against SHIELD? There was a guy around here that said "The discomfort of a few young children is a small price to pay if it means preventing those kids from making mistakes and causing the death of others" and it wasn't me.

Hawkeye and Widow are trained covert operatives with a number of years experience. That is not the same as a 16 year old boy with powers who has less than a year experience at doing what he does. Also they started out as covert but they were slowly integreted into the public team. Besides can you see Peter being covert in any sence of the word in any universe?

It is not the same when you are talking about only one person, plus as I have said they are keeping a very close eye on him with what looks like to me an almost 24 hour survailance on him. The Ultimate universe does not yet have an influx of lots of hereos turning up. While their numbers are small and managable it would not be necessary to take measures of that extenct. The larger the number of heroes the more chance of something going wrong the greater need for them to be governed, it is just simple math. Besides which in Ultimate SHIELD is a US Agency that deals with the whole Super powered people so there is an agency already resposible for registering and keeping an eye on them.

I didn't say that they would be dEstroyed I said "the story of the budding hero on the road to discovery would be something supervised by a training staff."

To me it just sounded like you were impling that the stories would not be as interesting or there would be no story to tell.


Damn it, agree with me already, concede I am right

 

[Tropico]

There have been a number of times when the Avengers have worked with SHIELD and I dont see how what she is asking is any different.

If you can't see the difference then that's the main problem.

They are rushing the bill and it should be carried over into law in a matter of weeks rather than months, and they want to be prepared to go into action as soon as it is made law.

Still, it was not law at the moment when Miss Hill jumped the gun; but that's ok since you already agreed in a previous post that she overreacted.

Him being a ralling cry could and will cause a war to break out and that was what she was tring to prevent.

Bull! The war would break out even if Cap wasn't a rallying cry, he says so himself!

4) I dont mind you saying "If the governement keeps things from the hero community, shouldn't the hero community keep things from the government?", but then you cant use the argument that the Government is untrustworthy and the heroes are trustworthy.

Thank you for that! If you can't excuse what the heroes do if the governemnt does it, then you shouldn't excuse the government for the things the heroes do that you deem as wrong. It makes you a hypocrite if you keep using arguments like that like you've been doing (no offense).

5) The government is a lawfully elected leader of the country, and if the people and government feel that they can not trust the heroes unreservedly any more and they want laws and rules instituted to govern them then that is the way the world works.

I agree, they still don't have a right to bully the heroes until AFTER the legislation is made law, though.

I am not in favor of the government doing anything in the MU universe,

You sure fooled me!

The US government does spy on its own people and that is nothing new, especially after 9/11. You dont see people rising up in arms and marching on Washington.

Neither are the heroes at the moment. It doesn't mean that it doesn't get talked about and that people fight the legislations that would give the govt. even more power to invade people's privacy.

Hawkeye and Widow are trained covert operatives with a number of years experience. That is not the same as a 16 year old boy with powers who has less than a year experience at doing what he does. Also they started out as covert but they were slowly integreted into the public team. Besides can you see Peter being covert in any sence of the word in any universe?

Hmmmm, a person with increased speed, strength and agility, the ability to cling to surfaces and a type of danger sense? It sounds like the perfect covert agent to me. In fact, it's the reason Miguel O'Hara chose the spider as the subject for the "Corporate Raider Program in 2099 which then lead to the accident that made him Spider Man 2099. You can argue all you want that SHIELD brought SOME of it's covert members to public light but the fact is that there's still a covert side and that it can be used to induct and TRAIN new operatives. It's funny how you get all gung-ho about training but then excuse Spidey for not getting any, LOL. Since it's the Ultimateverse I'll forgive ya, but it shouldn't be something that floats in a post SHRA MU.

Damn it, agree with me already, concede I am right

No.

 

[Vanguard07]

It's not an assumption to say that every government agent is corrupt when every government agent thats ever appeared in comics was corrupt.
It's an assumption to say that some of them arent when you havent seen any.

 

[Trask]

If you can't see the difference then that's the main problem.

What I said was that the Avengers have worked with the government/SHIELD before, even to hunt superheroes sometimes. His objection was not to "leading" the Avengers to hunt heroes down it was a personal objection he has to helping hunt them down. I mean he did not even consult it with the rest of the Avengers first to see what they thought.

Still, it was not law at the moment when Miss Hill jumped the gun; but that's ok since you already agreed in a previous post that she overreacted.

She should not have been so heavy handed about it, but after discovering what they have been hiding about "house of M" I think she has come to dislike/distrust the avengers.

Bull! The war would break out even if Cap wasn't a rallying cry, he says so himself!

That is not the point, the point is with Cap leading the other side more heroes would join his side since they see him as a legend. Lets face it if Cap was pro with Iron man and the rest then those that join the opposition would be much more fewer, and they would not have someone with Caps experience to lead them.

Thank you for that! If you can't excuse what the heroes do if the governemnt does it, then you shouldn't excuse the government for the things the heroes do that you deem as wrong. It makes you a hypocrite if you keep using arguments like that like you've been doing (no offense).

I dont understand that part of your argument. Why would I excuse the government for something the heroes do? I think you might have misswritten what you wanted to say, or maybe I am not understanding it right.

What I said was you cant use the argument "If the governement keeps things from the hero community, shouldn't the hero community keep things from the government?", and then use the argument "the Government is untrustworthy" since your privious argument shows that the hero community is also untrustworthy. There is nothing hypocritical about that, just a statment that no one is without "Bloods on thier hands" in this argument.

I agree, they still don't have a right to bully the heroes until AFTER the legislation is made law, though.

They have bullied no one. They informed Cap of what is required of him as an agent of SHIELD once the act was carried out. They did not force anyone else, they did not go to the Avengers and force them to do anything, the fact that Iron man and the rest voluntered at the end of the book to hunt Cap shows that.

You sure fooled me!

What can I say I am the king of tricks. Oh crap hope Loki did not hear me say that.. Oh wait he is dead isnt he?

Neither are the heroes at the moment. It doesn't mean that it doesn't get talked about and that people fight the legislations that would give the govt. even more power to invade people's privacy.

That argument sounds convincing until you look at a few facts.

1) This legistlation is not going to affect anyone else except costumed heroes with secret ID's (which is less than 1% of the US population)

2) Those that will be affected by the legistlation have an easy way of avoiding it. Dont be a costumed superhero.

3) The government is not asking anything out of the superheroes that it does not already demand of everyone else that lives in the US.

Taking all this into account I dont think there will be a lot of people out there marching on Washington in protest.

Hmmmm, a person with increased speed, strength and agility, the ability to cling to surfaces and a type of danger sense? It sounds like the perfect covert agent to me. In fact, it's the reason Miguel O'Hara chose the spider as the subject for the "Corporate Raider Program in 2099 which then lead to the accident that made him Spider Man 2099. You can argue all you want that SHIELD brought SOME of it's covert members to public light but the fact is that there's still a covert side and that it can be used to induct and TRAIN new operatives. It's funny how you get all gung-ho about training but then excuse Spidey for not getting any, LOL. Since it's the Ultimateverse I'll forgive ya, but it shouldn't be something that floats in a post SHRA MU.

It is not his ability that makes him unsuitable for the job, but his personality and lack of decipline and training. Sure if they can train him to follow order and do messy jobs (Covert missions usually require killing/stealing/spying and I dont see Peter parker as having the personality to do most of those), then he might make a good agent. However that would require years of training and by then he would be around 18 anyway so it would be better to just let him have his freedom until he reaches 18 and then have him join the Ultimates.

At least that way they dont have to come up with some kind of cover for having him removed from his school so that they could train him to become a covert agent. Also as a free agent he does indirectly work for SHIELD helping catch people like the Green Goblin, Sandman, Doc Ock and the rest.

And I am not against training in Ultimates, I never said that. This argument is about the reason Fury is letting him run free until he is 18 instead of picking him up and putting him to work for SHIELD while he is still 16.

No.

You will come over to my side. You can not resist the strength of my arguments for very long.

 

[Tropico]

You will come over to my side. You can not resist the strength of my arguments for very long.

Riiiiight! Aunt May has more physical strength than your arguments do. Hmmm, either Aunt May or Madame Web, whoever is weaker.

 

[Trask]

It's not an assumption to say that every government agent is corrupt when every government agent thats ever appeared in comics was corrupt.
It's an assumption to say that some of them arent when you havent seen any.

No not every government agent that has appeared in the comics have been corrupt. You just remeber the bad ones because most of the times the others are unnamed agents, or no one remebers them at all. I mean how many SHIELD agents can you name of the top of your head besides Fury?

 

[rigel7soldiers]

Seriously, off the top of my head, I can think of like fifteen heroes who have killed, have been in prison, or have been wanted by the police. The only heroes are or have been outlaws at one point or another; Hell, Captain America comitted high treason in Daredevil: Born Again.

 

[Vanguard07]

No not every government agent that has appeared in the comics have been corrupt. You just remeber the bad ones because most of the times the others are unnamed agents, or no one remebers them at all. I mean how many SHIELD agents can you name of the top of your head besides Fury?

Probably only like 15 or so but naming them and noticing their actions are a little different dont you think?