Comics Is anyone actually excited for O.M.I.T?

[iloveclones]

Careful, TMOB, you know that you can't count all 3 issues. Because 2 of them don't exist. They only exist in our minds, and are paid for with monopoly money.

In the years between 2004-2009 there was a spike up to 84-85 million comics sold. When the economy was good. Then the economy tanked, as did people's disposable income. And comics sales went along with it. And so did Spidey's.

Now, I think it's a slightly fairer to compare where in the rankings the mag is. For a company's flagship character, a top 20 ranking is slightly disappointing. Not Doom and Gloom, not stagflation, just slightly disappointing. I would hope that a title like that would hover between top 10-15 with occasional forays into the top 10. I would explain some of that away by people not wanting to shell out 3x a month. Some of it by post-OMD bad taste in the mouth. Some of it by the rotating teams (even myself, I prefer a more consistent style.) And some of it, people just don't like the new direction.

Frankly, I don't see that last group as being a huge number of the people who left the title.

Bottom line (for me): Spidey's fine. They made a Huge Change that was bound to cause bad feelings, and came out of it with the base pretty much intact, and the (single) Spidey that they have wanted for a long time. I would call it a bargain.

 

[Dragon]

Hold the phone here...

You said...



That there is an increase in Spidey sales... but then you say...



What drop? If you go buy your numbers, then in spite of a decline in the industry, Spidey's numbers are pretty healthy, especially in 2009, the second year of BND.

So what exactly are you people arguing about?

if you look back at the posts you'll see this-

Meehaul pointed out that Spidey since BND has been in the top ten more than previous years.

I looked at as an example 2004 a year where Spidey never hit the top ten.
I responded that even though in that example year of 04, Spidey didn't hit the top ten, ASM still sold more comics than in the same month in 2010 when it did hit the top ten. 83,000 in 04 versus 66,000 in 10 .

Imdaly inserted that there'd been an overall industry drop in sales in .2010 versus 2004, so Spidey's lower numbers reflected that.

I responded that actually there had been an overall increase in industry sales over '04 and posted the sales from '09 since that of '10 obviously wouldn't be available. Thus ASM sales being lower has nothing to do with less comics being sold overall. If sales have dropped, they've dropped because less people want to buy ASM in particular. Got it?

Now, as I also noted- maybe the lower numbers are still good enough for ASM to be considered a success financially. Whoopee. But then IF sales are great, and the point of BND was to move Peter past MJ and trhe marriage, why do they keep bringing MJ and the marriage back up? You loyal followers of BND obviously don't care about the marriage, so who are they trying to please? Or does that mean that the numbers aren't good enough and they're hoping to get the folks back who dumped the book because the marriage was disintegrated?

And if you want to counter with how much people also didn't want to read Spidey back during the Clone saga or Mackie's run, you'll get no argument from me. I'm certainly not looking back at that example year of '04 and singing "those were the days" for Spidey. They weren't. In fact, I really have to search my memory for the last time i didn't think Spidey in the overall sucked.

My real point is that Quesada's little gimmicks and sleight-of-hand aren't making things better. In my opinion at least. And on topic, I doubt he can fix things with OMIT.

 

[Dragon]

Careful, TMOB, you know that you can't count all 3 issues. Because 2 of them don't exist. They only exist in our minds, and are paid for with monopoly money.-

Sure. We can include the other two issues...

March 2004:

11 Amazing Spider-Man 505 (#64) $2.25 Marvel 83,612

24 Spectacular Spider-Man 11 $2.25 Marvel 54,066

25 Spectacular Spider-Man 12 $2.25 Marvel 53,549


March 2010:

10 Amazing Spider-Man 623 $2.99 Marvel 66,062
14 Amazing Spider-Man 624 $2.99 Marvel 60,215
18 Amazing Spider-Man 627 $2.99 Marvel 54,203
19 Amazing Spider-Man 625 $2.99 Marvel 54,179
21 Amazing Spider-Man 626 $2.99 Marvel 53,867

No improvement. Unless you want to count the fourth and fifth issues. I guess if they released ASM 10 times per month it'd really do well.

In the years between 2004-2009 there was a spike up to 84-85 million comics sold. When the economy was good. Then the economy tanked, as did people's disposable income. And comics sales went along with it. And so did Spidey's.

And all that time, while Overall sales were increasing, ASM's were dropping.
These are Marvel's filed figures:

2004 Avg:123,540
2005 Avg:112,564
2006 Avg.: N/A
2007 Avg.: N/A
2008 Avg.:105,948

And this doesn't change the fact that in 2009 industry-wide sales were still better than in my example year of 2004.

Now, I think it's a slightly fairer to compare where in the rankings the mag is.

I'll bet you do.

Bottom line (for me): Spidey's fine. They made a Huge Change that was bound to cause bad feelings, and came out of it with the base pretty much intact, and the (single) Spidey that they have wanted for a long time. I would call it a bargain.

Really? So why do they constantly bring the marriage back up? If they're doing well with you stalwarts who don't miss the marriage. why does it ever need to be mentioned again, since OMD was supposed to be the THE FINAL STATEMENT ON THE MARRIAGE?

And stop taking all this to heart. It's just comic books.

 

[SpideyInATree]

How about that OMIT storyline on the horizon, huh?

 

[Meehaul]

I hate cherry picking. And it’s useless to focus exclusively on single years, like for example, 2004 & 2009. But, we can do so as an example to demonstrate how comparisons without context are worthless.

In 2004, ASM sold an average of 86,664 issues per month (I use the more reliable Diamond data than the Marvel filings, which are hard to decypher). Ok those are good numbers. If we look at 2009, ASM sold an average of 69,267 issues per month, a considerable drop. However, there are caveats that need to be mentioned. My calculations do NOT count the infamous “Obama” issue. That single issue sold so many copies that it skewed any reasonable analysis. As a consequence, I chose to drop it altogether and only to average the other ASM issues for those months (it didn’t just sell well in January, it also did well in February and March too). And, to avoid the “can’t triple count ASM” complaint, I averaged sales of the two or three issues of ASM that came out in the relative months to arrive at the figure I derived. If I had included the Obama issues in the analysis, ASM would have actually sold MORE issues, on average, in 2009 than 2004. Similarly, if I’d only counted the highest selling issue of ASM for the month, Spidey would have done substantially better in the comparison. If I’d included Friendly Neighborhood SM and Web of SM in my averages for 2004, the average for that year would have dropped considerably. Even without including the Obama issue, 2004 and 2009 would have been much closer (although 2009 would still be lower, on average).

Here’s the kicker, though. If we look at ASM for only two years, we don’t get much of a story. Let’s look at DC’s flagship character, Superman. In 2004, Superman sold an average of 123,151 issues per month. In 2009, however, Superman sold only 40,485 issues per month. A much larger drop than that experienced by ASM. I tried to include figures for Batman, which is a relatively stable seller and used as Diamond’s index comic; while I could figure out the numbers for 2004, however, I couldn’t calculate 2009 because Batman became “Battle for the Cowl,” and later “Batman & Robin” and there was one month where Batman was not published at all, so the numbers couldn’t really be compared properly.

Dragon uses Marvel's filing statements, which provide an interesting trend over time.

1966
340,155

1967
361,663

1968
373,303

1969
372,352

1970
322,195

1971
307,550

1972
288,379

1973
273,204

1974
288,232

1975
273,773

1976
282,159

1977
281,860

1978
258,156

1979
no data published

1980
296,712

1981
242,781

1982
240,683

1983
241,762

1984
261,064

1985
326,695

1986
276,064

1987
284,692

1988
271,100

1989
266,100

1990
334,893

1991
340,977

1992
544,900

1993
592,442

1994
353,025

1995
234,290

1996
216,779

1997
159,950

1998
119,547

1999
127,915

2000
113,685

2001
113,557

2002
122,572

2003
122,173

2004
123,540

2005
112,564

2006
no data published

2007
pending

2008
105,948

This data is difficult to crunch, as Marvel provides no breakdown, so over-runs in printing are also included. We also have no transparent way to compare these numbers to those filed by DC.

So, comparisons have to be made in context and apples must be compared to apples, oranges to oranges. More money was made in 2009 than 2004 in part because comics cost more. More comics also were sold, but they weren't necessarily superhero comics. You can't say because the industry sold more comics that it necessarily sold more superhero comics; nor can you extrapolate that ASM is doing poorly when flagship characters at other publishers experienced even more significant drops. You have to look at trends over time. ASM has suffered over time even as other superhero comics have suffered. You have to be consistent in comparisons. At bottom, however, what matters is whether you enjoy reading the comic or not. Dragon doesn’t at the moment. I do. It’s fine either way.

 

[SpideyInATree]

This is a thread about the upcoming OMIT storyline, right?

 

[Meehaul]

Hahaha, yeah, it is about OMIT. It just annoys me when folks start talking data and sales without appreciating the complexity of the data or acknowledging that it needs to be fairly compared to other, similarly situated books.

I'm not looking forward to OMIT. I thought OMD was lame and I suspect the retro-fit will be equally lame. But, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Im not holding my breath though.

 

[iloveclones]

Sure. We can include the other two issues...

March 2004:

11 Amazing Spider-Man 505 (#64) $2.25 Marvel 83,612

24 Spectacular Spider-Man 11 $2.25 Marvel 54,066

25 Spectacular Spider-Man 12 $2.25 Marvel 53,549


March 2010:

10 Amazing Spider-Man 623 $2.99 Marvel 66,062
14 Amazing Spider-Man 624 $2.99 Marvel 60,215
18 Amazing Spider-Man 627 $2.99 Marvel 54,203
19 Amazing Spider-Man 625 $2.99 Marvel 54,179
21 Amazing Spider-Man 626 $2.99 Marvel 53,867

No improvement. Unless you want to count the fourth and fifth issues. I guess if they released ASM 10 times per month it'd really do well.



And all that time, while Overall sales were increasing, ASM's were dropping.
These are Marvel's filed figures:

2004 Avg:123,540
2005 Avg:112,564
2006 Avg.: N/A
2007 Avg.: N/A
2008 Avg.:105,948

And this doesn't change the fact that in 2009 industry-wide sales were still better than in my example year of 2004.



I'll bet you do.



Really? So why do they constantly bring the marriage back up? If they're doing well with you stalwarts who don't miss the marriage. why does it ever need to be mentioned again, since OMD was supposed to be the THE FINAL STATEMENT ON THE MARRIAGE?

And stop taking all this to heart. It's just comic books.

I don't remember ever saying that OMD would be the final word on the marriage. Just the end of it. Personally, I would have preferred them to answer all these questions in the first year of BND. Normally, I don't mind dragging out loose ends in comics. Since it's an ongoing medium, I have all the time in the world. In fact, I kind of like when they dredge up an old plotline and give it a new life. But this is different, since they seem to want a single PP. O.M.I.T. coming this far after seems to violate the initial reasoning for OMD.

As for OMIT (see, I'm going to talk about OMIT), yeah, I'm kind of looking forward to it. I think I would have been more hyped for it a year ago, but I still want to see what they came up with. How much of it fits and makes sense, and whatnot....

 

[ragingdemon155]

At this point in time, how can anything actually make "sense" in regards to this story? I still don't see the point of this story. Why bring it up after all this time? I get it, "Marvel" wanted the marriage gone and MJ forgotten about. Whats the point of continually bringing this entire story up?

Does anyone have faith in Joey Q as a writer in regards to Spider-man?

 

[Themanofbat]

They have to "bring it up" in order to explain the continuity... some of us like to "connect the dots"... and Marvel never wanted MJ "forgotten about"... they stressed MANY times that MJ was an important cast member, and having her "killed" would have been pointless...

 

[SpideyInATree]

At this point in time, how can anything actually make "sense" in regards to this story? I still don't see the point of this story. Why bring it up after all this time? I get it, "Marvel" wanted the marriage gone and MJ forgotten about. Whats the point of continually bringing this entire story up?

Does anyone have faith in Joey Q as a writer in regards to Spider-man?

I have faith in him as an artist and an Editor In Chief. He should let the writers handle the writing, in my opinion, and he can draw the pretty pictures.

 

[iloveclones]

Definately as an EIC. I've never been a big fan of his art.

 

[SpideyInATree]

I really like his earlier work. His stuff on Daredevil was really good. The stuff he did on One More Day seemed all right but it looked rushed. Drawing and being Editor in Chief can probably do that. That's why I just wish he would leave it to his creators to do the story and stick to the whole EIC gig.

However, we'll see what we get out of this. I only see more One More Day backlash coming out of it since he's writing and drawing it. Plus I saw the first six pages of # 638...the art definitely looks a bit rushed...but we'll see how things go.

I am looking forward to the Stan Lee/Marcos Martin back up. I really dig that Martin artwork.

 

[bps]

I definitely am. As a fan of the marriage, I cant wait to get this explanation.

 

[Themanofbat]

Quesada did a very nice cover to XO-Manowar #0....

 

[ScottishFogg]

I'm only curious to see what story they finally settle on and what becomes canon. It was clear pretty early on that BND was being made up as they went, that not even the writers were sure of how things came to be. I stopped following it all a while ago and am now only vaguely curious.

 

[Themanofbat]

I'm only curious to see what story they finally settle on and what becomes canon. It was clear pretty early on that BND was being made up as they went, that not even the writers were sure of how things came to be. I stopped following it all a while ago and am now only vaguely curious.

That's quite the statement... it seemed to me that they knew what they were doing...

I think early on, the writers were more focused with simple telling "good Spider-Man stories" with little sub-plots and let the continuity issues be dealt with later...

But what do I know...

 

[SpideyInATree]

That's quite the statement... it seemed to me that they knew what they were doing...

I think early on, the writers were more focused with simple telling "good Spider-Man stories" with little sub-plots and let the continuity issues be dealt with later...

But what do I know...

Yeah, man, what do you know! You blind Spider-Man loyalist! You suck for liking the direction of Spider-Man!

 

[ScottishFogg]

That was just the impression I got. From the interviews I read at the time, Quesada seemed to imply (or straight-out say) that Brand New Day and everything therein came directly out of the deal with Mephisto.

But then almost immediately (it seemed), everyone set out to come up with non-Mephisto related reasons for everything being as it was, so that the only thing Mephisto did was save Aunt May.

I got the feeling that they were trying to retcon the retcon.

 

[Themanofbat]

That was just the impression I got. From the interviews I read at the time, Quesada seemed to imply (or straight-out say) that Brand New Day and everything therein came directly out of the deal with Mephisto.

But then almost immediately (it seemed), everyone set out to come up with non-Mephisto related reasons for everything being as it was, so that the only thing Mephisto did was save Aunt May.

I got the feeling that they were trying to retcon the retcon.

The reason they were coming up with "non-Mephisto" reasons is simply due to the fact that in spite of the fact that Mephisto had something to do with it, regular timeline continuity had to find "non-Mephisto" reasons to explain it on account that nobody would remember the Mephisto deal... so Peter (as well as readers) need explanations to the reasons "why" things happened... which we had been and will find out with this story (hopefully).

 

[ScottishFogg]

I understand what you're saying, but it seems if Mephisto changed everything, and nobody remembers anything any differently, then there would be no reason to have to explain it. Nobody would go looking for answers because nobody would know they were supposed to be asking the questions.

Brand New Day should have been a fresh start with no looking back. It should have been the start of a brand new continuity because in many ways, that's what it is.

 

[kguillou]

Yea but on the other hand you cant just bring in these grand, drastic new changes to a character's world and not explain them. Because of BND, Spidey's history is a little fuzzy now, his relationship with everybody is a little different because of it. People like Black cat, the FF4, DD, Norman Osborn, Venom, Aunt May, people who used to know Peter's identity, their connections with Spiderman are different now because they dont remember their past history with him. Especially norman osborn, he's done all this horrible, horrible stuff to Peter Parker and he doesn't remember any of it now, that changes the Peter/ Norman dynamic drastically.

Anyway, i'm glad we're getting an explanation to finally put all the pieces together.

 

[Infidel]

It's amazing how Quesada has managed to destroy any credibility the book once had and just when people start to talk about the stories that were written by the twenty writers he should of hired five years ago he just wants to remind the readers of the worst comic story of all time. Not only were we lied to for a over a year, but they managed to make Spider-man into the worst person alive. I can't think of any mythical or real hero that would not use his head like this guy and sell out the universe to save his aunt, who not only was always sick, but actually died years ago.

I don't care what anyone says, the Spider-man in Amazing Spider-man 300 or 400 is not the same guy as in 545. The can't be the same person, because that old Spider-man didn't seem something short of a mentally disabled person.

Joe Quesada doesn't care about the quality of stuff he puts out, nor does he care about any of the readers opinions. He just thinks 'Well, they'll loves this. We'll give them all this bad stuff then we'll make it better and he'll be single.' Why offer us things like big possibilties with public identities and big deaths if you don't intend to use them? Why?

WHo cares about some generic villian, now. We were offered that big story and not only will we not get it, I don't think we'll ever see that Spider-man again. I don't care about an idiot who is obsessed with his aunt.

Joe Quesada just killed that character. He took the fun right out of it. He killed him. Sure, take away the marriage, but why did he have to take away the spirit of the book?

 

[Themanofbat]

The spirit of the book is almost as great as it's ever been ... certainly moreso than the previous 20 years, barring a few exceptions.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

The spirit of the book needs someone to call the Ghostbusters on it.