Is fandom scaring away top talent?

[samsnee]

Seems like certain fanbases of certain franchises are getting more and more demanding.

https://news.avclub.com/rian-johnson-and-christopher-mcquarrie-have-pretty-diff-1827363452

I guess it all started when Christopher McQuarrie was asked on Twitter:

Is it possible for an audience or viewer to give legit, constructive criticism on a film, based on that film's merits, without the person being labeled as toxic or insure or a racist or sexist in this day and age? How do you handle legit viewer criticism?

To which he responded:

The answer is in your question. There is a distinct and obvious difference between criticism and bullying.

Constructive criticism serves film. Bullying serves the bully’s impotence.

And I handle criticism the same way I handle death: I aim for dignity and hope I manage.

Of course, there were some that didn't like that answer and said he should "grow a pair".

This eventually led to James Mangold chiming in:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/logan-director-james-mangold-warns-that-fandom-backlash-1827432164

At the point when work writing & directing big franchises has become the emotionally loaded equivalent of writing a new chapter of The Bible (w/ the probable danger of being stoned & called a blasphemer), then a lot of bolder minds r gonna leave these films 2 hacks & corp boards.

Between some studios being more rigid in how they want to build their cinematic universes and franchises, and then backlash from fans who didn't see on screen what they envisioned, I can definitely understand why directors and possibly actors would stay away. Of course, the nice paycheck will always be an enticement for younger talent, but why would more established directors take the risk?

You spend two years or more of your life developing it, then it comes out, people either love it or hate it, and then you get asked for the next two years during every other interview for whatever project you are on, when the sequel is coming out. I'm surprised Matt Reeves is still attached to Batman to be honest.

I wasn't a fan of Last Jedi and not because they chose to have a more diverse cast. I'll be more hesitant to pay to see the next one. But I've never understood why other "fans" insist on constant harassment of the director or actors. It's just a movie at the end of the day.

 

[Jh7058622]

Good thread subject. I don't know if it's scaring them off or just not really the most ideal environment for creativity as you have this built in group of fans of a subject matter that all have opinions on how things "should" be.

 

[Zant]

Signing up for a Star Wars film as an actor or director must be scary....

 

[Spider-Fan]

The evidence for scaring people off is right there. I will tell you right now if I ever hit the life lottery become a big name director, I won't engage in social media at all. Nothing good comes of it. The thing is, these idiots now have an outlet to bully filmmakers. Idiots like this were always there, but now they have toys and can harass the people they hate. I will just never give people that outlet.

But if fans want top talent working on these films, they need to stop acting like complete morons and get lives.

 

[samsnee]

The evidence for scaring people off is right there. I will tell you right now if I ever hit the life lottery become a big name director, I won't engage in social media at all. Nothing good comes of it. The thing is, these idiots now have an outlet to bully filmmakers. Idiots like this were always there, but now they have toys and can harass the people they hate. I will just never give people that outlet.

But if fans want top talent working on these films, they need to stop acting like complete morons and get lives.

I imagine for some who grew up with something like Star Wars, it would be a dream to put your own stamp on it. As much as I disagree with Rian's choices, I respect that he went with what he wanted. I think the hard part is finding the right balance between listening to constructive criticism and saying "You know they have a point" and ignoring the haters.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't see Rian Johnson ignoring criticism. I see him explaining his creative decisions and pointing out when someone is being a cyber-bully/idiot. But I don't see him ignoring constructive criticism.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Social media is the bane and downfall of modern life, it's to blame for so much. Hate it, hate it, hate it !!!! 'Licensed & approved' bullying.

 

[Flint Marko]

I only see this really happening on this scale with Star Wars.

Star Wars is arguably the only truly universal franchise that unites multiple generations. As such, the morons in fandom get louder because there are more of them and the job is going to get tougher and tougher.

Marvel will get to that soon if they aren't already there.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I'm not sure it's scaring off that many though I am sure these days with the incredibly strong affect social media has that it's a newly added element that is in the mix.

Still, I think for the most part a lot of talent either behind or in front of the camera look at the idea of franchise film making with an understanding that by it's nature there is a sort of "keep inside the lines" mentality among a slice of the audience that can indeed influence the reception of the finished product. Sure this has been ever thus to a degree. You take on a storied franchise like a James Bond or adapt a book or series and there are going to be baked in expectations. And I would be the first to say there probably should be. There is a surrendering in a way to doing a genre film with a fan base. You know taking on such a project that truly radical decisions are likely off the table. No matter how interesting a story you think it might be to have James Bond kill M and defect for real to Bloefeld's side the copyright owners are not gonna allow a screenwriter to do that. It could be a great story but the Broccilis are gonna nip that in the bud real fast.

So talent brought on board usually know that they really don't have carte blanche. Look at Tarantino's usual answers about doing a super hero film. He usually says he figures the fan base actually wouldn't be interested in his take on hero A, B or C because he wouldn't be limited by fan expectations. He would want to do his own thing. His recent taking on of Star Trek does seem counter to this I admit. We will have to see I suppose. I do think that his sense of being unable to truly unleash his creativity is something shared by a lot of passionate talent.

That isn't to say that such a position is somehow the superior outlook on the issue. There are probably just as many talented people that don't mind coloring within the lines of the audience's expectations. I can imagine their thinking being "Fine. So I have to use a red marker here and blue one here... But I'm using a more burgundy red and that blue is going to be on the aquamarine side." They try to find ways to be creative in their own way because talent is hired just for that... Their talent. Their creativity. They try to work inside the lines but add their flavor. I think this is something known on all sides.

I can also see however that the passionate fans that can and do invest a lot of time and emotional energy online via social media are new players in the game unlike anything we have known before and everyone is right now feeling out what the new rules are so to speak. Genre work to be great has always been a balancing act or like keeping plates spinning. Social media pressure is now another plate that has to be watched I think. The question might be if this newly added variable is in the long term worth the effort to apply any concentration to given that the film making process was already filled with plates the creators had to keep from falling down in the first place?

 

[Fallen Angel]

Yes, top tier actors/actresses don't need the hassle and they're multi millionaires as it is with acclaim. I mean some dweeb on a keyboard hassling you because your an inch short?

 

[Drizzle]

Signing up for a Star Wars film as an actor or director must be scary....

I think that's where this all stems from. The directors and actors in the MCU and DCEU didn't get nearly enough vitriol from so-called "fans" as Rian Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy and Kelly Marie Tran did for The Last Jedi. But the thing is, the extremists in the Star Wars fanbase didn't go after the old watch of the franchise like Mark Hamill or even someone like Oscar Isaac who isn't really a newcomer to Hollywood. Them going after Kelly Marie Tran just because they didn't like her character is even worse because it's her first big movie and now I wouldn't be surprised if she quit Hollywood all together just because of this experience.

 

[N'Jobu]

I think it definitely is beginning to scare talented filmmakers and actors away if it hasn't done so already. Social media interaction has made this kind of behavior even more apparent and effective in this regard. And this hasn't just been a big thing with Star Wars. There was also a huge issue regarding Zack Snyder that has been ongoing since the release of BvS. He has been attacked in this way constantly since then by fans and even bloggers/"journalists". Part of me thinks the average person shouldn't have this kind of access to artists and celebrities. I understand the positives of being able to talk to and connect with your favorite filmmaker or athlete by the click of a button, but the negatives far outweigh the positives when considering the victim's mental health.

 

[Drizzle]

I think it definitely is beginning to scare talented filmmakers and actors away if it hasn't done so already. Social media interaction has made this kind of behavior even more apparent and effective in this regard. And this hasn't just been a big thing with Star Wars. There was also a huge issue regarding Zack Snyder that has been ongoing since the release of BvS. He has been attacked in this way constantly since then by fans and even bloggers/"journalists". Part of me thinks the average person shouldn't have this kind of access to artists and celebrities. I understand the positives of being able to talk to and connect with your favorite filmmaker or athlete by the click of a button, but the negatives far outweigh the positives when considering the victim's mental health.

Snyder's a different scenario because for every fan that attacks him, there's another one who jumps to his defense. Which is fine, but when those same people start sending death threats because someone gave Batman v. Superman a bad review, that's when it gets nuts.

 

[DarkKnight88]

The irony is that these “fans” who seem to have all the answers and know what makes a great movie would be attacked by the same type of “fans” if they ever got to make their “movie”. There is zero self awareness with these people.

 

[Ozbridge]

Is fandom scaring away top talent?

Yes.

No I don't readily have a story about a specific talent being scared away by toxic fandom (unless you believe Grace Randolph's story about Bob Iger wanting to fire Kathleen Kennedy and offering her position to JJ Abrams but he refused). But just by using common sense alone I'm sure vitriol fans will make actors/ directors/ writers hesitate to sign on a movie, if not outright not doing it in some cases.

 

[samsnee]

I only see this really happening on this scale with Star Wars.

Star Wars is arguably the only truly universal franchise that unites multiple generations. As such, the morons in fandom get louder because there are more of them and the job is going to get tougher and tougher.

Marvel will get to that soon if they aren't already there.

I don't think Marvel will ever get a director who is already established. They like to go for someone with an upward trajectory which has worked to their benefit. Their biggest "get" so far has been Coogler. All other directors they have gotten have done good work but nothing amazing like he has.

As cool as it would be to see a Denis Villeneuve do a Marvel, I don't think it would be a good fit at this point.

The DCEU is trying to have it both ways. Name recognition directors, while still building a cohesive universe. I don't think that is compatible.

 

[wampa1]

Their biggest "get" so far has been Coogler. All other directors they have gotten have done good work but nothing amazing like he has.

Poor Kenneth Branagh.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Poor Kenneth Branagh.

In what way do you mean sorry, I don't get this ? In that, what's he done since do you mean ?

 

[Ozbridge]

Poor Kenneth Branagh.

Pretty sure Natalie Portman said she agreed to do Thor because she had watched Much Ado About Nothing 100 times.

Despite Frankenstein and As You Like It, apart from MAAN Sir Kenneth had directed movies like Henry V and Dead Again.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I think it must make some directors/performers think twice. Obviously some have thicker skins than others (same in any walk of life) - and yes, there's the (to us, at least) massive financial 'compensation' for their efforts - but it's got to be hard. Especially if the franchise is one they care deeply about as a long-time fan themselves, rather than one seen simply a paycheck.

 

[samsnee]

Branagh is a solid director, but I don't consider him in much demand.

 

[wampa1]

No, but you said Marvel don't go for established directors (Branagh was established) and that their biggest 'get' was Couglar (Branagh was a far more significant coup, especially at the time when Marvel movies wern't quite the pop-culture phenomenons they are now).

 

[Spider-Fan]

At the time of their Marvel hire, Branagh is most definitely the most experienced/biggest get. Coogler was a great get, but his filmography pre-BP was WAY less extensive than Branagh's. Branagh's been directing films for decades.

 

[N'Jobu]

Snyder's a different scenario because for every fan that attacks him, there's another one who jumps to his defense. Which is fine, but when those same people start sending death threats because someone gave Batman v. Superman a bad review, that's when it gets nuts.

This is definitely true, it goes both ways. Individuals defending Snyder who make death threats or verbally attack others online over a difference of opinion are equally in the wrong. At the end of the day, people need to learn to control themselves, but not everyone can or wants to.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Branagh's back history and film making back catalogue were the reason he got the Thor gig.