Is Marvel Relying Too Much On Nostalgia And Fanservice?

[XtremelyBaneful]

How is Ralph Bohner a nostalgia character when Fox's Quicksilver was introduced in 2014 and last appeared in 2019?

In this thread, I was equating employing legacy actors as a method of relying on nostalgia.

I wasn't being selective or disqualifying legacy actors who who played non-MCU marvel characters that were still relatively recent in 2021, like Quicksilver would be.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

In this thread, I was equating employing legacy actors as a method of relying on nostalgia.

I wasn't being selective or disqualifying legacy actors who who played non-MCU marvel characters that were still relatively recent in 2021, like Quicksilver would be.

What makes someone a legacy actor? Just being non-MCU? Does Tom Hardy's Venom count too?

 

[Lily Adler]

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

What makes someone a legacy actor? Just being non-MCU? Does Tom Hardy's Venom count too?

If you're asking for my personal definition of it, it's the portrayal of Marvel characters by actors who were part of their own franchises.

I wouldn't count Tom Hardy's Venom because his franchise started in 2018 and the intentions were always there to connect the characters to the MCU. Evan Peters' Quicksilver was part of a franchise that started long before the MCU came along.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Lets call a spade a spade guys, the nostalgia reliant projects (No Way Home and Deadpool and Wolverine) are the ones getting the most attention post Endgame thus it FEEL like Marvel is relying on nostalgia. But…they’re really not.

Marvel has released a boatload of films since 2021 and almost all of them were standalone films introducing new characters. NWH was a novelty at the time and blew up the box office. After NWH we had twenty other projects come and go to varying degrees of success that had nothing to do with the multiverse (except Dr Strange 2). then comes the return of Hugh Jackman and the box office is blown up again. Its creating the perception that the nostalgia multiverse movies are the only ones that have worked.

I'm gonna have to disagree with this too. you posted the two biggest example of projects relying on nostalgia, but their next biggest one has already been talked about since page one and that's the casting of RDJ as Dr. Doom in Av5. so they really are relying on nostalgia and not just of legacy Marvel film franchises anymore, but even their own.

I posted this in the Dislike thread, but I'll post it here as well since it breaks it down pretty well.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

If you're asking for my personal definition of it, it's the portrayal of Marvel characters by actors who were part of their own franchises.

I wouldn't count Tom Hardy's Venom because his franchise started in 2018 and the intentions were always there to connect the characters to the MCU. Evan Peters' Quicksilver was part of a franchise that started long before the MCU came along.

I feel like it's a stretch to refer to that character specifically as "nostalgic", though. Do people really feel any more nostalgia for him than they do for, say, the Guardians of the Galaxy?

Honestly I have a hard time seeing Wolverine or Xavier as purely nostalgic either, considering their most recent and most beloved film came out in 2017. It's more like they just never really went away, unlike Tobey who totally triggers strong feelings of nostalgia.

Maybe what you really mean is that phase 4 and 5 have been relying too much on non-MCU characters for crossover hype, which is true.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Jackman and Stewart I strongly disagree with saying they're not nostalgic. Yes, they had more recent appearances, but they're still nostalgic callbacks

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Jackman and Stewart I strongly disagree with saying they're not nostalgic. Yes, they had more recent appearances, but they're still nostalgic callbacks

But are they purely nostalgic? I feel like saying they were just there for "nostalgia" ignores the fact that they had consistent long-term popularity and success.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I feel like it's a stretch to refer to that character specifically as "nostalgic", though. Do people really feel any more nostalgia for him than they do for, say, the Guardians of the Galaxy?

Honestly I have a hard time seeing Wolverine or Xavier as purely nostalgic either, considering their most recent and most beloved film came out in 2017. It's more like they just never really went away, unlike Tobey who totally triggers strong feelings of nostalgia.

Maybe what you really mean is that phase 4 and 5 have been relying too much on non-MCU characters for crossover hype, which is true.

That is exactly what I mean, hence how in my first response to you I explained that I was equating employing legacy actors to relying on nostalgia.

But to be fair, that's pretty much been the mindset of everyone in the thread. The OP mentions Wolverine's appearance in Deadpool 3 and RDJ's upcoming appearance in Av5.

This thread hasn't really been about discussing whether the employment of legacy Marvel actors into the ongoing narrative of the MCU is a method of relying on nostalgia or not; for the purpose of a conversation, the thread acknowledges that casting actors like Evan Peters or Patrick Stewart is relying on nostalgia, and the question is just if Disney is doing too much of it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But are they purely nostalgic? I feel like saying they were just there for "nostalgia" ignores the fact that they had consistent long-term popularity and success.

2 things can be true at once. They did have long term popularity and success, but also bringing them back like the MCU is doing is blatantly trying to leech off the nostalgia people have for those movies

 

[Mr. Peanut]

2 things can be true at once. They did have long term popularity and success, but also bringing them back like the MCU is doing is blatantly trying to leech off the nostalgia people have for those movies

Where's the line between leeching off of nostalgia and leeching off of something that's just been actively and continuously popular for a long time?

Especially with Wolverine, where it feels like a crossover with Deadpool would have probably ended up happening regardless of the Fox buyout or Deadpool joining the MCU, as Deadpool 2 sets up a crossover with Wolverine. If the Fox buyout had never happened and we got a Deadpool 3 with Wolverine anyway, people would have just viewed it as yet another Fox movie to feature Hugh Jackman's Wolverine, in the long list of Fox movies to feature Hugh Jackman's Wolverine.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Where's the line between leeching off of nostalgia and leeching off of something that's just been actively and continuously popular for a long time?

I can't speak for @Spider-Fan but if they think the same thing that I do, then leeching off of nostalgia and leeching off of something that's been actively and continuously popular for a long time are one in the same in the example roles of legacy-Marvel-to-MCU characters that have been discussed in the thread; from the legacy Spider-Men, to Wolverine, to Quicksilver, to Professor X, to even the eventual MCU Dr. Doom.

Basically, if the thread was alternatively titled "Is Marvel relying too much on legacy casting and fan service?", then the discourse would still be the same as it is now.

Especially with Wolverine, where it feels like a crossover with Deadpool would have probably ended up happening regardless of the Fox buyout or Deadpool joining the MCU, as Deadpool 2 sets up a crossover with Wolverine. If the Fox buyout had never happened and we got a Deadpool 3 with Wolverine anyway, people would have just viewed it as yet another Fox movie to feature Hugh Jackman's Wolverine, in the long list of Fox movies to feature Hugh Jackman's Wolverine.

Wait, what? I saw all of the Deadpool movies and I don't remember any sort of tease whatsoever in Deadpool 2. And after the Fox buyout (which never should have happened in the first place, but that's a story for another time), Kevin Feige announced Deadpool 3 would be in the MCU and later on Ryan Reynolds announced Hugh Jackman's Wolverine would be returning in it.

I'm inclined to believe that this all happened because of the buyout, since all of the characters in the previous two movies who had decent supporting roles all got reduced to practically just being arguably one big plot device instead of characters with their own arcs.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Wait, what? I saw all of the Deadpool movies and I don't remember any sort of tease whatsoever in Deadpool 2.

Did you watch the post-credits scene?

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Did you watch the post-credits scene?

Of course I did. Iirc that was a mid credit scene not a post credit one, and it was just Deadpool doing one of his meta cinematic jokes. It wasn't a tease for a future team up.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Of course I did. Iirc that was a mid credit scene not a post credit one, and it was just Deadpool doing one of his meta cinematic jokes. It wasn't a tease for a future team up.

Seemed like one to me.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Seemed like one to me.

Well not to me, it didn't. That was Deadpool being violent with his humor, as usual, just there to kill his already butchered self in Origins.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Well not to me, it didn't. That was Deadpool being violent with his humor, as usual, just there to kill his already butchered self in Origins.

I'm not talking about him killing his Origins counterpart, I mean when he says this...

"Look, eventually you're gonna hang up the claws and it's gonna make a lot of people very sad. But one day, your old pal Wade's gonna ask you to get back in the saddle again. And when he does, say yes."

Edit: And after doing some searching, Ryan Reynolds did in fact state that the plan was always to have a team up with Wolverine...

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I'm not talking about him killing his Origins counterpart, I mean when he says this...

"Look, eventually you're gonna hang up the claws and it's gonna make a lot of people very sad. But one day, your old pal Wade's gonna ask you to get back in the saddle again. And when he does, say yes."

Alright, I'll give you credit that Deadpool's line there is a tease of an eventual teamup.

But I have another question for you. And it involves two frames of time. The first, inbetween the time of release Deadpool 2, to the announcement that Disney closed on the acquisition of Fox. The second is Disney's announcement of Deadpool 3 being in the MCU, to Ryan Reynolds' announcement of Hugh Jackman returning for his sequel.

Within these two time frames, were there any official announcements or hints or clues from the cast or crew from Fox or Disney from either of the respective time frames that Deadpool's third movie was going to feature a teamup between him & Wolverine?

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Edit: And after doing some searching, Ryan Reynolds did in fact state that the plan was always to have a team up with Wolverine...

View attachment 111794

just saw the tweet you edited into your post. So you're right, Deadpool 3 would have been a team up even if Disney didn't buy Fox.

I just want to point out that I heard a rumor NwH was going to be conceptually similar to the end product if Sony & Disney did breakup in 2019. Sony would have just replaced Dr. strange role with their own version of Madame Webb. I don't have a source to prove it atm, but Sony would have been well within their rights to make a movie like that.

But the reality is, Disney did buy Fox and they did continue their partnership with Sony. So since both Deadpool 3 & NwH are under the MCU umbrella, the situation just ends up being Marvel Studios particularly relying too much on nostalgia & fan service.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Alright, I'll give you credit that Deadpool's line there is a tease of an eventual teamup.

But I have another question for you. And it involves two frames of the time. The first, In between the time of release Deadpool 2, to the announcement that Disney closed on the acquisition of Fox. The second is Disney's announcement of Deadpool 3 being in the MCU, to Ryan Reynolds' announcement of Hugh Jackman returning for his sequel.

Within these two time frames, were there any official announcements or hints or clues from the cast or crew from Fox or Disney from either of the respective time frames that Deadpool's third movie was going to feature a teamup between him & Wolverine?

Well, there's the tweet I posted above. More context here:

Ryan Reynolds Reveals Deadpool 3 Was a Wolverine Road Trip Movie Before Disney-Fox Purchase

Ryan Reynolds shared that a

thedirect.com

Before the Disney-Fox merger, Deadpool thrived under 20th Century Fox with two successful R-rated blockbusters, meaning that a third installment was on the horizon. However, the plan was ultimately derailed due to the aforementioned merger, leading to the eventual delay of Deadpool 3.

Ever since the delay, Ryan Reynolds has been vocal on social media about Wade Wilson's impact if the character gets absorbed by the MCU, describing the potential partnership as “explosive” and “win for everyone.”

Last November, it seems that fans got their wish when a report revealed that Marvel Studios already found the writers for tupcoming threequel. The character's MCU debut was further cemented when it was finally confirmed by Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige, meaning that his presence should serve as a game-changer for the monumental franchise moving forward.

Now, Reynolds looks back at the pre-MCU plan for Deadpool 3, and it would've featured a surprising team-up between two iconic characters.

While promoting Bell Let's Talk, a mental health awareness campaign, Deadpool star Ryan Reynolds revealed in a tweet that the original plan for Deadpool 3 was to showcase a “road trip” between Deadpool and Logan Howlett AKA Wolverine.

The actor also unveiled that the adaption would've been done in “Rashomon style,” meaning that the film could've included contradictory interpretations from Wade Wilson and Logan.

As is, this tidbit from Reynolds is a huge one. The idea of seeing Deadpool and Wolverine together in one film has long been a dream for many fans, and it would've been fascinating to see it happen in Fox's version of Deadpool 3.

Despite that, the potential team-up of Deadpool and Wolverine is still possible in the MCU, but it's safe to say that a new actor would portray Logan instead of Hugh Jackman, who played the character for years. In a way, this could still work, but the banter between Reynolds and Jackman would've been a delight to witness for everyone.

Among all of the X-Men characters from Fox, Deadpool is the perfect (anti) hero to integrate into the MCU due to his fourth-wall-breaking approach.

Given the impending arrival of Deadpool 3, the story possibilities are endless for the threequel. If Marvel decides to stick with the original road trip premise, there are a lot of characters to choose from the MCU's massive roster of heroes, ultimately presenting numerous team-up ideas for the character.

Thankfully, Reynolds and the rest of the Deadpool 3 crew have a lot of time to think what's the next best narrative for Wade Wilson and the MCU. Hopefully, the wait will be worth it.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Well, there's the tweet I posted above. More context here:

Ryan Reynolds Reveals Deadpool 3 Was a Wolverine Road Trip Movie Before Disney-Fox Purchase

Ryan Reynolds shared that a

thedirect.com

Yeah I saw your edit. I appreciate you providing another source, but I already responded to the point you're making in my post above.

 

[Venom 1988]

I just want to point out that I heard a rumor NwH was going to be conceptually similar to the end product if Sony & Disney did breakup in 2019. Sony would have just replaced Dr. strange role with their own version of Madame Webb. I don't have a source to prove it atm, but Sony would have been well within their rights to make a movie like that.

My understanding from the Reign of Marvel Studios book, the multiverse wasn't even on Sony's mind for the third movie. The only strong concept they had in mind was Kraven as the main villain and Peter being hunted since his ID was public. Then after Sony & Disney made amends with a new deal, they couldn't use Kraven due to his own solo movie. So then the story shifted to a "It's a Wonderful Life" esque story with Dr Strange tryign to help Peter with idenity being public but that was going to be the whole movie (with the idea of a post credits scene with the Raimi/Webb villains crossing over).

 

[Mr. Peanut]

But the reality is, Disney did buy Fox and they did continue their partnership with Sony. So since both Deadpool 3 & NwH are under the MCU umbrella, the situation just ends up being Marvel Studios particularly relying too much on nostalgia & fan service.

Well I think the issue isn't so much NWH and DP&W themselves (as they both provide a cathartic send-off to their respective universes), but rather it's everything around them.

1. Patrick Stewart's Xavier in MoM and Kelsey Grammer's Beast in The Marvels were both unnecessary. Like, they don't even connect to DP&W anyway, so why are they the Fox actors other than to create false hype? I guess Beast might at least still pay off somehow in Secret Wars, but Idaknow. Xavier was definitely pointless though.

2. NWH clearly set up a grounded street level story as the next Spider-man movie. However NWH's success will likely lead to another multiverse Spider-man story, which is when it becomes gratuitous.

3. There have been no crossovers between MCU films in Phase 4 and 5, other than Doctor Strange in NWH, which I think is the biggest mistake of all. The MCU's popularly was at its peak from Avengers 1 to Endgame, when we had tons of crossovers. By slamming the breaks on the MCU crossovers, it's created a situation where the non-MCU crossovers have swallowed up all of the MCU's hype.

4. The situation with RDJ as Doom is dubious.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

My understanding from the Reign of Marvel Studios book, the multiverse wasn't even on Sony's mind for the third movie. The only strong concept they had in mind was Kraven as the main villain and Peter being hunted since his ID was public. Then after Sony & Disney made amends with a new deal, then the story shifted to a "It's a Wonderful Life" esque story with Dr Strange tryign to help Peter with idenity being public but that was going to be the whole movie (with the idea of a post credits scene with the Raimi/Webb villains crossing over).

I gotcha. I'm not too familiar with the book of you speak of, is that the official storyline book or is that something else?

But anyway, yeah what I heard was a rumor without back up. But if it's a false rumor and Sony was indeed going in a different direction at the time, then it just makes Marvel studios look guiltier anyway, if doing a live action Spider-Verse was always their idea.

Well I think the issue isn't so much NWH and DP&W themselves (as they both provide a cathartic send-off to their respective universes), but rather it's everything around them.

I guess that depends on your personal opinions of NwH & DP3 as movies in and of themselves. With NwH, I've always said that it's a movie that's gonna hold a special place in my heart for being the first movie date between my now wife and I, but it's not that good of a movie. It's only good at the fan service it sets out to execute.

Same with Deadpool 3; it's just not that good. Some people here have said it barely had a plot and I have to agree with that. But it broke box office records and did exactly what Deadpool said it would; give the people what they came for.

1. Patrick Stewart's Xavier in MoM and Kelsey Grammer's Beast in The Marvels were both unnecessary. Like, they don't even connect to DP&W anyway, so why are they the Fox actors other than to create false hype? I guess Beast might at least still pay off somehow in Secret Wars, but Idaknow. Xavier was definitely pointless though.

Well, I didn't necessarily mind that Xavier was in Dr. Strange 2. I was hyped to first see Xavier there but I don't like what they did with him, or Mr. Fantastic either. I thought that was a horrible introduction to the character, and I've seen people feeling the same way about that too.

But I agree with you about Beast, too. Him being in Cpt Marvel 2 was unnecessary, but as I've been saying throughout the thread, his cameo may have been the most talked about aspect of the movie.

2. NWH clearly set up a grounded street level story as the next Spider-man movie. However NWH's success will likely lead to another multiverse Spider-man story, which is when it becomes gratuitous.

This, too. The next movie should be Spider-Man+ Daredevil vs. Kingpin+ Scorpion. I wouldn't mind another NwH, just not right away. I made a whole separate thread about it, too.

3. There have been no crossovers between MCU films in Phase 4 and 5, other than Doctor Strange in NWH, which I think is the biggest mistake of all. The MCU's popularly was at its peak from Avengers 1 to Endgame, when we had tons of crossovers. By slamming the breaks on the MCU crossovers, it's created a situation where the non-MCU crossovers have swallowed up all of the MCU's hype.

As far as hype goes, the MCU has had enough box office successes in phases 4 & 5 to keep their momentum going. Even if it's not gonna reach the peak it did with Endgame. Although, I wouldn't completely rule that out either. While RDJ being cast as Doom was a desperate move, it's also a wildcard. Which brings us to your final point.

4. The situation with RDJ as Doom is dubious.

I think I know what you are saying, but just to be sure, what do you mean here that the situation is "dubious"?

 

[Spider-Fan]

Where's the line between leeching off of nostalgia and leeching off of something that's just been actively and continuously popular for a long time?

Especially with Wolverine, where it feels like a crossover with Deadpool would have probably ended up happening regardless of the Fox buyout or Deadpool joining the MCU, as Deadpool 2 sets up a crossover with Wolverine. If the Fox buyout had never happened and we got a Deadpool 3 with Wolverine anyway, people would have just viewed it as yet another Fox movie to feature Hugh Jackman's Wolverine, in the long list of Fox movies to feature Hugh Jackman's Wolverine.

I can't tell you where the line ends, but making a movie that brings back a bunch of Fox-Men characters for the purpose of applause moments like Spider-Man No Way Hoke and using Hugh Jackman as the main selling point because it's his return to the role after nearly a decade os not just crossing the line, it's obliterating the line