Is Sabretooth the son of Dog Logan?

Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by THOMAS LOGAN, Feb 8, 2008.

  1. THOMAS LOGAN Registered

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    This is a theory I've had since I read Origin. Lookin back at some older Wolverine comics also led me to this conclusion.

    First there's the obvious physical resemblance between Sabretooth and Wolverine, that even extends to their costumes. Then there's the healing factor which they both possess, which has also allowed them to battle each other for an entire century. And finally there's the first blood Sabretooth layed on Wolverine by killing Silver Fox (supposedly).

    Now, Claremont intended Wolverine to be Sabretooth's son, but that was left undefined and it was long before Origin. I feel, what better reason for Sabretooth to wage eternal war on Wolverine, than to hold him responsible for the death of his father?

    Since Wolverine suffered his second case of amnesia after the death of Rose, this would explain why he wouldn't feel threatened by Sabretooth's appearance during their first fight (Wolverine Vol. I #10). Had he not forgotten about Dog, he woulda spotted the resemblance and immediately confronted his gigantic neighbor. The question would now be, how did Sabretooth track Logan down after so many years of seclusion in the wilderness in the 1920s? Specially because he had never seen him. Well during Origin, Logan earned the name Wolverine and killed Dog in front of many beguiled spectators. This gave Sabretooth three things to go by: A man called Logan (like his father), also known as Wolverine, that killed his father with 3 claws (which match the scar on Dog's face). The ironic thing is, that this would indicate Logan has never truly known why Sabretooth is his ultimate enemy. Forcing him to simply deem Sabretooth a heartless killer. I think Wolverine made him, and Sabretooth swore revenge, forever.

    I'm really lookin forward to seeing what the connection between Wolverine and Sabretooth will be in X-Men Origins: Wolverine, and specifically what the connection between Dog Logan and Sabretooth will be.

    I believe Aaron Jeffery is playing Dog Logan...

    [​IMG]

    -TL
     
  2. TheVileOne Registered

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    Well it was heavily implied in Origins that Wolverine (James Howlett) was in fact Groundskeeper Logan's son, and Dog's half-brother. There was something in the second issue that made it seem like Mrs. Howlett had a long-stemming affair with Logan, and romantically clutched him before she shot herself. Logan as he grew older resembled Groundskeeper Logan more and more. Not only that, Rose never seemed to actually state that.
     
  3. guitarsingerguy Who am I?

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    Whoops, NVM. Misread what the title was getting at. :p
     
  4. Infinity9999x Registered

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    Even though the writer didn't intend it, I've always viewed Dog as Sabertooth.
    His scars could easily be explained away. His mutation may have manifested late, or his healing ability was still mutating and it wasn't powerful enough to completely heal damaged tissue, but only turn injuries into scars quickly and still leave a scar.

    I've always liked the idea that Dog was Sabertooth more then Sabertooth being a son of Dog or any other idea. Everything seemed to fit, Sabertooth was known to have an abusive father, which dog had, and it would explain Sabertooth's anger at Logan if you take into account that Logan

    *Stole his name

    *Killed his father

    *Got more attention from Rose

    *and that Sabertooth is the bastard half brother of Logan who didn't get any of the pleasures Logan had in his early life

    So even though it's unlikely, I like to view Sabetooth as Dog.
     
  5. Infinity9999x Registered

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    Where did you hear this? Last I heard the story from Origin wasn't even included, and it had Logan being a young kid in the 1950's.
     
  6. THOMAS LOGAN Registered

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    I think there is a possibility of Dog becoming Sabretooth. It would make a whole lot of sense because once again Wolverine has murdered another man's father, driving this other man to a quest of chaotic revenge. Its like the Logan family legacy:

    "We kill each other's loved ones and then we run into the forest to cool off."

    The reason I believe Dog is in fact more likely to be Sabretooth's father, is his behavior in Origin. He seems less agressive and his attacks are much different from those Sabretooth's is best known for. I think the mutation on Dog was the same as his father Thomas. They were vulnerable to serious flesh wounds - unlike Wolverine and Sabretooth, which would be 2nd and 3rd generation Logans. Wolverine easily killed Thomas (which had claws) at the age of 13, and then killed Dog the same way 15 years later. The permanent marks on Dog's adult face prove that these original Logans did not possess the advanced healing factor the later Logans would adquire.They did have some mutant qualities though: Thomas had the claws (as seen on Elizabeth Howlett's back) and Dog had the strength - making him capable of putting up a fight against Wolverine.

    Anyway if Dog truly is Sabretooth, then Jeffery couldn't be playing him. I can't pinpoint the article that spoke of Jeffery's involvement, but I remember it did say "Jeffery will be playing Wolverine's brother." There was also another article from an Australian source, where Jeffery talked about it as a "possibility" and mentioned it was a period piece. This was back in November, so I doubt the script went into total rewrite mode during the last three months. "Period piece" smells like the 20s to me, not the 50s.

    But hey, we'll find out...

    -TL
     
  7. DoctorJones Registered

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    I had the exact same thoughts as you. What was great about Origin is that despite being initially a controversial idea among fans, the story was ambigious enough to be enjoyable on its own terms and not dilute previous writers' work on Wolverine.
     
  8. TheVileOne Registered

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    Infinity I agree with many of your viewpoints. However, I think its feasible that Sabretooth could be a relative of Dog Logan as well.

    But you know what, when we saw that image of adult Dog Logan, even with the scars, it felt like Sabretooth to me. I can't imagine anyone else vowing to hunt Wolverine to the ends of the earth other than Sabes.
     
  9. Carlo Comicus Registered

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  10. THOMAS LOGAN Registered

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    Looking back at the intro issue to Dog Logan, I can really see why Paul Jenkins didn't want Dog to become Sabretooth...

    [​IMG]

    I think he wanted to establish the Logan family tree as a tragic element. In the end, the only survivor was Wolverine. Ironically he's also the only ilegitimate Logan. The Logan that never really knew his origin. I think Sabretooth knows his origin and knows the truth of it all. The truth about Dog Logan and the man who killed him - his only brother.

    I would love to see the full Logan tribe in action during this film. Thomas, Dog, James and Victor. They're all BADASSES.

    -TL
     
  11. TheVileOne Registered

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    When did Wolverine kill Dog?
     
  12. THOMAS LOGAN Registered

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    I don't think Dog survived that blow to the head. My guess is he cracked his skull when he hit the ground and Wolverine just wanted a stab at him to make sure the job was done.

    We don't really see what happened to Dog's body (if indeed he was dead) but I'm pretty sure the miners disposed of it.

    Without the healing factor Dog was a dead man the moment the fight started.

    -TL
     
  13. Nightmare "Kill Them All"

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    :whatever:
     
  14. TheVileOne Registered

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    That's really just a theory and really means nothing in comics. And if they didn't mean for it to be Sabretooth he isn't, but if they want it to it will be.

    However, death or presumed death means nothing to Marvel Comics. Say hello to the current Captain America, Bucky.
     
  15. Infinity9999x Registered

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    Exactly, and I wouldn't assume that Dog was killed, I mean, Wolverine was raising his claws back to finish him off, which is why Rose ran out to stop him and had her unfortunate mishap.

    Also Vile, I agree that Sabes being a son of Dog is just as much a legitimate possibility as Sabes being Dog, I just like the idea of Sabes being Dog more, it always appealed to me more. I guess I also like that fact that if Sabes really was Dog, then he and Wolverine started out as friends, and may very well have stayed friends had circumstances between them been different.

    I agree, actually I'd go as far to say that Origin is one of the better Wolverine stories since the original Claremont/Miller 4 ish. Mini series back in the 80's.

    The reason I like Origin so much is that in that story, the Wolverine presented fits more with the 80's Wolverine. The Wolverine that really wants to find inner peace, but can't because he's always battling his dark side. The Wolverine that hated the animalistic side of himself, and the fact that he couldn't control his violent impulses. The failed Samurai. As opposed to now, where Wolverine has basically devolved into Punisher with claws.

    The Wolverine in Origins, when you got down to the core of him, was really just a nice guy who had suffered a crap load of bad luck. He's a tough guy sure, but deep down you know he has a good heart. That's the vibe I got from the old Wolverine stories. I don't get that vibe from Wolverine now, he basically has no qualms about killing whoever gets in his way, and that's just not the Wolverine I like to read.

    I'm not saying I don't wan't Wolverine to let lose anymore, I'm just saying I preferred the Wolverine that would beat the snot out of you if you came at him, but would only kill you if he saw no other choice, or if you hurt him enough to make him lose control.
     
  16. TheVileOne Registered

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    Agreed. Pretty much until confirmed otherwise, I believe Dog is Sabretooth. I really have no reason not to believe it. The scars . . . eh, if Sabes can constantly not die, then I have no problem with scars eventually healing.

    If you think about it, Wolverine and Sabretooth are more alike than they are different. It's hard for me to believe Wolverine never enjoys killing, Sabretooth just enjoys it more. It's really convenient that Wolverine is constantly brought over to the dark side or "brainwashed" into doing bad stuff.

    Dog being Sabretooth to me simply solidifies and at least gives some sort of meaning to their long-standing hatred. Sometimes it seems like they don't even know why they hate each other, they are simply meant to, and Dog/Logan is why.

    To me the Claremont/Miller miniseries is THE Wolverine story, and while I like Origin, I don't think it matches up to the quality. I think its the single greatest Wolverine story ever that defines what Wolverine should be.
     
  17. THOMAS LOGAN Registered

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    If Thomas Logan didn't survive James' premature claws to the chest, I seriously doubt Dog survived a beating from an older/stronger James. The intention of the writer was to leave us in this realm of possibilities. Did Dog die? Did he survive and go on to become Sabretooth? Did the fat guy finally lose some weight?

    My favorite Wolverine arc (and I own the Mini-series) is The Brotherhood by Greg Rucka. The covers for this 5 issue story alone beat the crap out of any other Wolverine covers.

    Esad Ribic is Wolverine's Tim Bradstreet...

    [​IMG]

    This Wolverine is another Punisher, but he's also a reluctant Punisher. He's burned out and desperately trying to get away from his image. He doesn't want to be heroic. He just wants to sit at home reading poetry. Naturally this cannot work out for him because like usual he's forced back into action. The man can't escape who he is. Reminds me of Mickey Rourke as The Motorcycle Boy in Rumble Fish. In The Brotherhood Wolverine is a true anti-hero.

    -TL
     
  18. Infinity9999x Registered

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    I completely agree. Also, I think the fact that Wolverine partially enjoys losing himself to his rage is also interesting in the fact that he hates himself for it. It's like the line from Ang's Hulk Movie "When I finally lose control....I like it." That applies to Wolverine more so then the Hulk I think. Wolverine enjoys his feral side and hates himself for it. It's a great dynamic.
    My sentiments exactly. It adds depth to their relationship.

    I don't think Origins matches up with the Claremont/Miller mini either, that's always been my favorite Wolverine story as well, but I think it's one of the better Wolverine stories told in a while. Like you, I think it was the perfect Origin story.
     
  19. Infinity9999x Registered

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    That logic is a bit flawed. While the premature Logan's claws were small, they were still at least 4 inches long. That's enough to do serious damage, especially when someone repeatedly shoves it into your abdomen.

    It's much more reasonable that Dog survived the fight. Yes Wolverine is older, but he just went through a cage match tournament, he was definitely not at the top of his game. Logan just beat on Dog, he didn't hit him in the head with a brick or anything, so I don't see a reason as to why Dog should have sustained a fatal injury. Not only that, Dog was HUGE. He was big, and strong, so I think he could take quite a bit of punishment without going down.
    I actually liked this series too, I collected all the issues. But I'll have to disagree that Wolverine is another Punisher. In this, he goes after those men on a mission of revenge, Punisher simply kills all criminals because he thinks they deserve to die. Wolverine wasn't going out of his way to hunt these men down, he did it because they killed a girl he knew and liked. Because of the fact that he doesn't want to kill the bad guys simply because "they're bad guys" separates him from the Punisher.

    I liked this mini because it is also more in sync with the 80's Wolverine, I think one of my favorite parts is at the end of the story when Wolverine meets with Nightcrawler. There you really see the self hatred Wolverine has for himself. Yeah, he got rid of lots of bad guys, but that doesn't make him feel any better. He hates himself because he can't control himself once he slips into the rages. This mini actually addressed that aspect, unlike most comics now, where Wolverine has no qualms about killing large numbers of people.
     
  20. TheVileOne Registered

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    I don't think Origins is the perfect Origin series for Wolverine. I think Jenkins was the wrong guy to write it. But ultimately it was more Marvel's story then Jenkins. I kind of liked Wolverine not remembering everything better. What happened in the past doesn't matter, but the man he tries to be in the present.

    My main problem is that after his past was revealed it feels like they've integrated it poorly into Marvel continuity.

    First the Tieri run suggests that his healing factor makes him forget everything, and he flashes back to the past from Origins, then he forgets all of that. All the stuff in the Morrison run with Nova calling him James and Wolverine not even flinching about it. And now Wolverine apparently remembers everything, but I wonder if that is even really the case.

    If he does, shouldn't he know the truth about himself and Sabretooth and where Sabretooth really came from?
     
  21. THOMAS LOGAN Registered

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    Not if Sabretooth isn't Dog.

    -TL
     
  22. Congo Jack Chad Sexington

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    I always imagined Sabretooth to be a good few years older than Wolverine. I know John Byrne (Creed's co-creator with Chris Claremont) seen him as Logan's father. Current Marvel continuity, as established with Jeph Loeb's godawful Evolution, also places Creed as an unspecified number of years older also.
     
  23. Infinity9999x Registered

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    It is kind of annoying, because Wolerine should know where Sabertooth came from and all that, but they haven't really talked about it. I really haven't been buying many current Wolvie comics as of late either, because I've been a bit unimpressed with his series.

    The ongoing Origin series has been especially underwhelming. I was also very dissapointed with Wolverine's son, I thought they could have made him an interesting character, but he basically fills the same role Sabertooth does, he's just not Sabertooth. I actually had an idea for a story involving Wolverine's son, but I made Wolverine son to be a completely different character.

    Well, what can you do though. I'm just not a big fan of the newer Wolvie comics. It annoyed the hell out of me when he was burned down to a skeleton and then HEALED BACK! :( I mean, that's how he died In Days of Future Past, and now he can apparently heal back from anything.

    Though I've heard they've toned down his healing as of late, so that's good I suppose.
     
  24. TheVileOne Registered

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    He has to fight a warrior or something every time he gets massively injured in order to come back.
     
  25. THOMAS LOGAN Registered

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    I don't see why its a problem that in the last 10 years Wolverine has become invulnerable to damage. The idea that he's virtually indestructible makes him even more interesting on the page. The original concept for him back in the 70s (before Claremont) was that the claws were in his gloves. Then we find out they're part of his body. Then in the 90s we find out he had them even before the adamantium. Then we find out that the adamantium was slowing down his healing factor. He's a character that keeps evolving and is currently unbreakable (by most).

    I agree the storyline with his son was not out of this world. But then again I don't think anybody would approve of a hero's offspring. They always seem unimpressive.

    The events that take place in Wolverine Vol. I #42 not only prove that Sabretooth isn't Logan's father, but they also show how just the thought of him being his father was instilled as pure suspense in the story. It never had any backing because both these men have an equal level of experience in what they do. They've both been around for 100 years, hating one another for most of that time. One doesn't top the other.

    [​IMG]

    -TL
     

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