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Isaiah Thomas Okay With Black Men Calling Sistas' "*****es"

^Post of the Week material...Actually, I haven't seen you around for some time now, Nell!

-TNC

thanks, tnc!

well, i don't post much in the x-men forums anymore, just because there's not much left to talk about anymore when it comes to x-men: the last stand.

i began coming to the community (i posted exclusively in the x3 forums before), and there were some interesting topics, but there are a lot of topics that really don't interest me.

good to see you around though. and good to have a bit of support, after a few of my previous experiences here in the community...
 
I agree with Memphis on some of these issues....

I'm a black male, more moderate/liberal than Memphis.....but I understand the frustration he sees in music. I grew up listening to lot of rap in high school, still do a little bit, but I've always pondered about this hypocrisy and mixed messages sent in the music even when I was a big fan. Black culture isn't going anywhere when the entirety of music on young "black" channels and radio stations promotes promiscuity, crime, ignorant behavior, or sexual abuse. Throwing a little "Dear Mama" or "Slippin" here or there doesn't excuse the gluttony of depraved, ignorant music that is promoted by corporate culture that takes advantage of down-trodden society. You might not go out and act like a stereotypical rapper, but your views and attitude on life will be influenced by what you listen to. You ARE what you eat. That is a fact.


Very true. Especially for young impressionable minds.
 
Memphis Slim, did it ever occur to you that most white music is about sex, violence and loose women. Rap is just another form of music therefore it will subscribe to the same topics which are common to the human experience. The Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Who and Alman Brothers all were singing about "f***ing the police" and hoes long before the Sugar Hill Gang even came out. They might not have used the same phrases and beats, but it was the same message. "Tambourine Man" by Bob Dylan was about cocaine, specifically the purchase of it. As was "Friend of the Devil" by the Dead. And much the same, people like Bill O'Reilly back then talked, at length, about how damaging the music was.


Yep. but I'm talking about a concern for "MY" people. As I said earlier. Most white suburban kids have support groups around them to buffer or pull them out. Mommy and daddy can send them to rehab or just threaten strike them from the will. they will probably still end up in college. The black kid doesn't have even a dad at home in most cases...and no money to help erase the mistakes.

I'm not okay with any lyrical content that influences people. But I get tired of hearing the "Well... white folks do it too" argument. Well we ain't white folks and we can't afford to make the same kinds of mistakes they do. Our safety nets have holes in them.
 
well i can't quote your entire post, because of how i formatted it, but i will respond to it anyways.

the point is this - music imitates life, not the other way around.

Kids imitate musicians, look at all the Youtube vidoes sympathizing for Britney Spears. Music is art and it reflects life...but it is also a source of many people's identity. IF people see their family, friends listening to music, they will listen to it too and absorb their messages.

there have been womanizing, drug dealing, gang banging people long before rap music ever came around. and even if you censor all of that stuff, and ban it, and it is never made or heard again, it is still going to exist. rap music has no impact what so ever on the fact that all of that stuff exists and happens in the world.

the "problem" with rap music is not that it says "*****" and "****" and "*****" and "hoe", it's the fact that rap music talks about stuff that's already going on in the world, that people want to be blind to.



you can talk about how nelly degrades women in his music videos all you want. but you are a male, correct? have you ever gone to a strip club? have you ever viewed pornography? or a playboy magazine? or forget all of that even - have you ever seen an attractive woman, and thought to yourself about how she had nice breasts, or a nice ass, or nice legs?

So we should promote pornography and sexual degredation of black women in videos because "we're all men." You don't think that has any consequences on how black women are viewed in the media. Do you understand how that music video . Women at one of the female HBCU (either Clark Atlanta or Spelman) protested Nelly's visit and he was visiting on a charitable basis...because of that music video. Yes, you can notice a woman, find her features attractive....but there is a difference between Nelly's "Tip Drill", which is sexual exploitation, and Marvin Gaye's "Sexual Healing", which yes, he talks about sex but in the context of respecting the woman or wooing the woman.

the music that talks about that stuff is just speaking out on what REALLY goes on in the world. and because you are a guy, who likes women, half naked women, or fully naked women, or what have you, does not mean you are degrading women, and don't respect them. you CAN call a woman a hoe, and still respect women. because some women ARE hoes. and some women DON'T deserve that respect. but just because i think ONE woman is a hoe, doesn't mean that i think that all women are hoes, and that i don't respect women. trust me, what i see in music videos has no influence what so ever on how i treat women. a woman is a person, not an object, and while as a male, i may love all the physical things that come from women, i also know that they are more than just a piece of meat for my sexual enjoyment. and just because i listen to a rapper talk about a hoe in his song doesn't mean i'm all of a sudden going to fall into some trap where i start disrespecting women.


No, you should never called women "hoes". Period.

take out all the rap music in the world, and drug dealing will still exist. gang banging will still exist. abuse towards women will still exist. poverty will still exist. murder will still exist.

Of course those things will exist and have always existed. That is no excuse for lazy rappers to continue to promote the lifestyle in their music, which they do for corporate profit. Lot of these rappers don't even see the environment they live in anymore and continue to promote it, pretend that they live it, portray it like an actor. They create the image that this is what you should desire to be.

these things are a part of our world, whether we like it or not. but, instead of living in a bubble and pretending everything is fine and there are no problems in the world, rap artists talk about the world that they live in, and the world that they come from. and while yes, there is a sense of negativity in the lyrics of rap music, most of the negative comes from pure entertainment. but the real quest of these artists is to send a message that things DO need to change, and that while this is the way the world is, there needs to be another way. and that is why, yes, those songs from 2pac, or bone thugs, or whoever, are enough to balance out the negative songs by these artists. because these POSITIVE songs are what the artists are truly trying to say in their music.

just because you say you are black doesn't make you some kind of expert on the message behind rap music. you obviously DO just skim through it, and don't pay attention to the music, and the lyrics, and the message.

i'm not saying rap music has -no- influence. but it is also not some kind of venom, poisoning the minds of black youth. the truth lies somewhere in the middle. and that middle is that these things that rap music depicts would happen whether or not rap music spoke on these topics. rap music didn't make these things happen. what rap music does, is speak on subjects that actually exist in this world, subjects that these artists have experienced 1st hand in their own lives. this is what they know. so through their music, their art (and yes, it IS art, whether you like it or not), they express those experiences. artists of ALL eras speak out on their experiences, and what they know, and what they feel and believe. this is hip hop's version of that, and it is no more corrupting than anything else in entertainment. because while music and entertainment DOES have it's impact and influence, it is an influence that can easily be swayed by a little something called "parenting", something that people don't seem to understand the concept of anymore.

There is still a dominant corporate culture that tries to push these messages onto the youth. When you have a channel like BET, which claims to be Black Entertainment, but is owned by white execs trying to make a buck and could care less about black culture, the white execs are going to exploit black culture for their botton line. If BET shows nothing but gangsta rap music videos from morning to night, (which some days that is actually the case) that will have an effect on how black youth perceive themselves, their culture and identity. There are only promoting one negative portrayal of black men and black culture on their station 24/7! Many more "positive" rappers have been denied airplay on the station at the call of these execs who say their message is not profitable.
 
There is still a dominant corporate culture that tries to push these messages onto the youth. When you have a channel like BET, which claims to be Black Entertainment, but is owned by white execs trying to make a buck and could care less about black culture, the white execs are going to exploit black culture for their botton line. If BET shows nothing but gangsta rap music videos from morning to night, (which some days that is actually the case) that will have an effect on how black youth perceive themselves, their culture and identity. There are only promoting one negative portrayal of black men and black culture on their station 24/7! Many more "positive" rappers have been denied airplay on the station at the call of these execs who say their message is not profitable.
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Well said.
 
Yep. but I'm talking about a concern for "MY" people. As I said earlier. Most white suburban kids have support groups around them to buffer or pull them out.
That's not true. The poverty line has about a 15% mobility rate up and down. Meaning 15% of people above it fall through the cracks and about 15% tend to get out (roughly). Just because your family is rich hardly means you have "buffer", don't be f***in' ridiculous.

And the point you keep skirting that both Jag and others have made, this rap music isn't made for "black people". It's made for anyone and directed at anyone who has the money to pay for it. That means those behind the poverty line, who couldn't afford Cable (to get BET) or the CDs aren't their target audience...but boy those suburban white kids are.
Mommy and daddy can send them to rehab or just threaten strike them from the will.
I've never heard a parent threaten to "strike" them from their will, that's ******ed. Most parents tolerate the stuff their children do and are very passive about it.
they will probably still end up in college. The black kid doesn't have even a dad at home in most cases...and no money to help erase the mistakes.
Most black people don't grow up in the ghetto dumbass. They have a disproportionate amount born into humble surroundings (around 24%), but the majority are born in the same surroundings as the average American.
I'm not okay with any lyrical content that influences people. But I get tired of hearing the "Well... white folks do it too" argument. Well we ain't white folks and we can't afford to make the same kinds of mistakes they do. Our safety nets have holes in them.
You all live in the same country, the idea that culture or the world has a "black America" and a "white America" is about as segregationlist as you can get. Wow. you. are. racist.
 
You all live in the same country, the idea that culture or the world has a "black America" and a "white America" is about as segregationlist as you can get. Wow. you. are. racist.


If you dont think there is a seperate culture of black america and white america then your delusional
 
That's not true. The poverty line has about a 15% mobility rate up and down. Meaning 15% of people above it fall through the cracks and about 15% tend to get out (roughly). Just because your family is rich hardly means you have "buffer", don't be f***in' ridiculous.
What's up with the profanity? You listen to a lot of rap music?:yay: Whatever your percentages are makes no difference. It doesn't change the negative effects sent by the lyrics and images. and one kid lost is one too many!

And the point you keep skirting that both Jag and others have made, this rap music isn't made for "black people". It's made for anyone and directed at anyone who has the money to pay for it. That means those behind the poverty line, who couldn't afford Cable (to get BET) or the CDs aren't their target audience...but boy those suburban white kids are.
It doesn't matter who it's "made for" . Its performers look like me. They are black for the most part. So guess who they will draw more of??? Sure....Billy and Molly will buy CDs too. And obviously you don't know much about what's going on in the hood. Even those below the poverty level "STILL" manage to have two TVs in the apartment, cell phones and cable. They shouldn't...but they do.

I've never heard a parent threaten to "strike" them from their will, that's ******ed. Most parents tolerate the stuff their children do and are very passive about it.
Doc...don't take that a a literal example....though some of that might exist. Just because you've never seen it happen doesn't mean it doesn't. I would imagine some rich parents might use a threat like that to "wake up" a rebellious kid. Who knows?
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My basic point is that the suburban youth has too many buffers that can help keep him or her on track. The black kid in the ghetto does not. Do their buffers always work? No! But they are there and if they are in place, they have a better chance.

Most black people don't grow up in the ghetto dumbass. They have a disproportionate amount born into humble surroundings (around 24%), but the majority are born in the same surroundings as the average American.

What's up with the name callin'?? Okay....we don't agree. And I don't need some white dude telling me about the people I see or grew up with! And go back and read my posts!! Where did I ever say that most blacks live in the ghetto?? ooops...I mean "humble surroundings"!
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My concern is for those that DO live there!!

____________________________________________________________

You all live in the same country, the idea that culture or the world has a "black America" and a "white America" is about as segregationlist as you can get. Wow. you. are. racist.[/quote
]

So what? And more name-calling......:yay:
White people sure have a hard time admitting to differences. It's sad and kinda' funny. Blacks sure don't have that hard a time. Just like those white folks down in Jena. They swear that everybody was fine....whites and blacks were the same...unified. "That Dang Al and Jesse is bringing the tension." But just ask the black people the same question and they'll say it's always been differences between the two. Are those folks segragationalists for stating what they see as a reality? And it's not just in Jena....it's in Boston, Brooklyn, L.A., Memphis.....in every city and state. We are different. We see the world thru different eyes. That can be a good thing or it can be a bad thing. It depends on the circumstances and how we handle it.
 
When you have a channel like BET, which claims to be Black Entertainment, but is owned by white execs trying to make a buck and could care less about black culture, the white execs are going to exploit black culture for their botton line.

LOL! Still blaming the white man when he has NOTHING to do with it! :whatever:

Let me correct your totally wrong and inaccurate statement. BET is owned by black people. It's presidents, including today, have BOTH been black. So its hard to blame the white man once again when he really has no control over this channel.

This may be hard for you to do, but place the blame over BET's content where it rightfully belongs.
 
LOL! Still blaming the white man when he has NOTHING to do with it! :whatever:

You're obviously naive if you think white execs don't benefit or profit from this cultural exploitation of black people.

Let me correct your totally wrong and inaccurate statement. BET is owned by black people. It's presidents, including today, have BOTH been black. So its hard to blame the white man once again when he really has no control over this channel.

BET is subsidiary of Viacom, which has a white President. Not that the race of the President or any individual person in the company matters. IF you think BET is a company controlled by the black community, you're dreaming and lack understanding of history and corporate culture.
 
BET is subsidiary of Viacom, which has a white President. Not that the race of the President or any individual person in the company matters. IF you think BET is a company controlled by the black community, you're dreaming and lack understanding of history and corporate culture.


exactly....
 
There are really some people who think this guy wasn't in the wrong? How did this topic get to 6 pages?
 
LOL, no matter what, its the white man's fault. Why don't you quit beating around the bush and come out and say it. Oh wait, you did.

Viacom is a HUGE media conglomerate. If you think they single-handedly handle programming, you're the one that lacks understanding. That's why BET has over 400 employees, unless they sit around and wait for whatever the Viacom president tells them to do.

Oh, BET also has positions that deal with programming. Hum...

Not only that, but it isn't the Viacom president that creates content for BET. And it certainly isn't the Viacom president that determines the demographics and ratings for the various shows.

BET was purchased in 2000, and it was under the agreement that then president Robert Johnson would "have total control" and that programming would not change at all.

Logic. It's what's for dinner.
 
It has nothing to do with convinction. The guy's a pig and ignorant.
 
LOL, no matter what, its the white man's fault. Why don't you quit beating around the bush and come out and say it. Oh wait, you did.

LOL..looking at your sig...I see you're looking to provoke some sort racial fight on SHH. No where did I say that it "always the white man's fault". I find it hilarious that's the only thing you pick up on my post criticizing gangsta rap culture. I'm saying the white corporate establishment benefits from BET's exploitation of Black Americans and black culture.

Viacom is a HUGE media conglomerate. If you think they single-handedly handle programming, you're the one that lacks understanding. That's why BET has over 400 employees, unless they sit around and wait for whatever the Viacom president tells them to do.

Viacom expects a certain level of revenue from their subsidiary. BET has to provide the revenue that their boss demands, they're not a standalone company...Viacom sets the agenda to what type of products they want their subsidiary to produce.

never mind, you're right....Viacom has no control or say in what BET does. BET..Viacom..nothing to do with each other..:whatever:


Oh, BET also has positions that deal with programming. Hum...

Not only that, but it isn't the Viacom president that creates content for BET. And it certainly isn't the Viacom president that determines the demographics and ratings for the various shows.

BET was purchased in 2000, and it was under the agreement that then president Robert Johnson would "have total control" and that programming would not change at all.

Logic. It's what's for dinner.


BET was associated with USA Network, HBO, before it became part of Viacom...if you think it was a standalone company that had no influence by white corporations, you need to read history and read in between the lines.
 
And respectfully, you're a white guy trying to tell me that I need to "understand" the poisoning of "MY" own people.

Does that even compute?

:huh: so, then black people that listen to rap will instinctively become exactly like the characters that rappers play?
gee...that explains all the dudes dressed like Andre 3000 I saw the other day.

no wait, I didn't.
I also fail to see how "we" ( the kids raised in the 80's) were poisoned by the music we saw, which was just as filled with misogyny as any rap video, I mean, try to see a hair Metal video were a girl is treated respectfully, you will hard pressed.
and none of the chicks I grew up with took to licking guitars ( or *****) out of nowhere, sure, some of them got pregnant, but guess what?
nowhere near as many as back in the 70's ( yeah it happened in the "gold old days too!!! GASP!) and me? well, I treat women respectfully, heck! no complaints from any girl I've dated, and never have I strolled around like David Lee Roth casually groping all the women I saw, or sticking my tongue out suggestively ala Gene Simmons.
I mean, it's not like every kid in the 80's dressed like this:
david_lee_roth.jpg

gee why was that?

but then, I didn't try to save the world from the evil forces of Cobra either.
you know why?
because I knew from a very early age television was makebelieve!
oh my gawd! insight only middle class white kids have!
"just because something is being done on television, doesn't men I have to do it!"
:huh:
wait, no, everyone knows that. regardless of race.
aren't you giving the young people very little credit?
if they do something it's because they want to do it and their parents are too stupid too busy, or too self involved to tell them not to.
 
I agree with Memphis on some of these issues....

I'm a black male, more moderate/liberal than Memphis.....but I understand the frustration he sees in music. I grew up listening to lot of rap in high school, still do a little bit, but I've always pondered about this hypocrisy and mixed messages sent in the music even when I was a big fan. Black culture isn't going anywhere when the entirety of music on young "black" channels and radio stations promotes promiscuity, crime, ignorant behavior, or sexual abuse. Throwing a little "Dear Mama" or "Slippin" here or there doesn't excuse the gluttony of depraved, ignorant music that is promoted by corporate culture that takes advantage of down-trodden society. You might not go out and act like a stereotypical rapper, but your views and attitude on life will be influenced by what you listen to. You ARE what you eat. That is a fact.

:up: About BET, you can see the obvious change in it's programming since Viacom bought it. It has become the black version of MTV, except slightly worse, if that's possible!
 
:up: About BET, you can see the obvious change in it's programming since Viacom bought it. It has become the black version of MTV, except slightly worse, if that's possible!

Sure, that in no way has anything to do with the "progress" the hip-hop culture -- or its product -- has made. :whatever:

SentinelMind, if you'll learn to quote properly, I might spend some time to debate you.

If BET was as influenced by white corporations as you claim, we'd have already heard about it from disgruntled BET employees. They seem to be able to brunt the majority of the blame, why can't you accept that?

 
LOL..looking at your sig...I see you're looking to provoke some sort racial fight on SHH.

Actually, its just a response to SuperLudacris's support of Jena 6 as well as that other guy who claims I am a racist. Bet you wouldn't call them out for their sigs.
 

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