BvS Jesse Eisenberg IS Lex Luthor - - Part 11

[Matt]

You might think the motivation is thin but it was there. He hated Superman for being powerful, he wanted that power in his control, and he thought people were stupid for believing Superman was a force for good.

But how does that connect to anything he actually did? See, having motivation in a movie has two elements. First, the actual motivation. Second, how the motivation impacts the character's actions. He hated Superman for being a powerful being he couldn't control....so he builds an even more powerful being that he can't control? Umm...what?

 

[The Guard]

You must have seen a different cut of the movie to me....

No, I just paid attention and saw something you didn't.

 

[The Guard]

Dude, come on. Like the movie all you want, but don't act as if there was anything even close to motivation or logic behind the Lex character. It simply wasn't there. Either you are just being disingenuous at this point or are projecting your own interpretation into a movie in which one does not exist.

I'm sorry you didn't see it. He has like four or five sequences of dialogue that inform his motivations.

 

[The Joker]

No, I just paid attention and saw something you didn't.

Apparently you saw something a lot of people didn't. More power to you.

 

[Bruce Malone]

Apparently it's a positive if 1 out of 10 people got Lex's motivation? Good job Snyder and co.

 

[ThePhantasm]

But how does that connect to anything he actually did? See, having motivation in a movie has two elements. First, the actual motivation. Second, how the motivation impacts the character's actions. He hated Superman for being a powerful being he couldn't control....so he builds an even more powerful being that he can't control? Umm...what?

Hubris. There was a reference to Icarus. He told Zod's corpse he flew too close to the sun, not realizing he was about to do that very thing. At least that's how I understood it. I'll grant it wasn't very clear.

I think he thought he could control Doomsday.

 

[Robin91939]

I'll just leave this here:

Lex Luthor's motivations/plan:
Lex Luthor hates Superman. This isn't just because in every iteration Lex hates Superman. It's because Lex is, in this film, one of (if not) the smartest person in the world. And as he points out, his knowledge should be true power. Power that is greater than someone like Superman's. Lex also fears the power of the Man of Steel and what he could do the world if he were to ever go rogue. Lex believes that it should be a MAN who is the savior of mankind, not an alien. His fears and hatred of all things inhuman has led to him studying and tracking all possible people with powers. He believes that all of our modern myths are based on actual people with incredible power: the "metahuman thesis." He looks for contingencies to take each possible metahuman out -- starting with Superman.

He knows about Batman. Batman has been around for 20 years and has no doubt made a reputation for being the most capable man (physically) in the world. Someone who could dispose of Superman if given the proper motivation and tools.

So Lex hammers home the motivation for Bruce. He sends him the letters from Wallace Keefe. He sets in motion the events in Africa to frame Superman and sully his reputation and causes the explosion at the Capitol. Lex provides the tool by allowing Batman to steal the Kryptonite (there is a smirk on his face as he sees the batarang in the glass case where the Kryptonite should be).

He kidnaps Martha Kent to use as leverage on Superman and kidnaps Lois Lane to bring Superman to him.

His plan is simple: Expose Superman as a fraud, or have him killed.

Option A: Superman flies to Gotham and kills the Batman. He brings Batman's head to Luthor at the site of the crashed alien ship where there are hundreds of network news cameras and Luthor can show the world that Superman is the killer everyone thought he is and ruin his reputation for good ...

... or ...

Option B: Batman uses the hate for Superman that Luthor has fueled and the weapons that Luthor has essentially supplied him with (Lex is the one who found and smuggled the Kryptonite from another hemisphere) to kill Superman. The end. Clean and simple.

Either option leaves Superman out of Luthor's way. Broken or dead. Those are Superman's two options as he flies to Gotham to confront Batman.


Doomsday:
Doomsday is Luthor's fail safe. He is what happens if Superman somehow escaped his catch 22 and was able to save Martha without killing Batman.

Lex believes that since Doomsday is "blood of my blood" that he can control him. His hubris is his downfall. As he says to Zod's corpse as he drips his blood onto his face, "Like Icarus you flew too close to the sun." This is exactly what Lex ultimately does. He believes that he can create a God to destroy Superman and that he will be able to control his creation. He is wrong. Very wrong.



-R

 

[Hurm...]

I'm convinced Lex wasn't even needed in this film.

If Bruce was really that weary of Superman - a result of the Metropolis attack, isn't it logical for Bruce to use his status to influence greater government supervision/accountability of Superman? That could have been more concise in communicating a conflict between Bruce and Superman. And when that approach doesn't work, then maybe it would justify Bruce using other means - such as Batman - to maintain the potential threat of Superman.

We really did not need this Lex character and his poorly motivated actions. Sorry. There can be more concise ways of communicating the Batman/Superman conflict without him.

 

[ThePhantasm]

You've been making some really good posts, Robin91939.

 

[godisawesome]

The motivation isn't rational, and this Lex doesn't have the lines to so clearly illustrate that he has concocted a whole, somewhat logical by twisted standards, world view where it makes sense for him to hate Superman.

But the irrationality of the hatred is true to the character; it's the same irrational hatred that makes Comics Lex squander God-like power to try and hurt Superman in Action Comics #900, or why DCAU Luthor would spend billions running for President just to drive Superman crazy, or Smallville Lex come to see his destiny (a very unscientific idea) as being forged around opposing and hurting Superman, or why Azzarello's Lex will blow up a school and make a creation of his die suddenly just to try and tarnish Superman's reputation a little bit and then be rendered speechless by the phrase "You're wrong Lex; I can see your soul."

I'll agree that it probably would have been much better for the character to give him the kind Azzarello-speech that would encapsulate his world view, but I'd argue the irrational, petty hatred is still a fundamental core of the character. And as much as the abusive father trope is played out (and it is), it was, I think, an effective way to communicate to the layman that Lex has a madness over Superman's whole nature. It's also something I hope is shown in more detail and more subtle direction in the Ultimate Cut.

And, one last thing before I leave this discussion for the night, I want everyone here to know that while I do actually agree with some of the complaints about the film, I do think that it was smart to give us a Mad Lex when he's the main antagonist; Suave Lex works best as a supporting cast member who grows into the big bad over the course of multiple stories. That's why DCAU, L&C, and Smallville Clark all did wonders with the character; but he always eventually has a breakdown that's not dissimilar to BVS's Lex. But I think this Lex was done correctly for this film; he made a perfect catalyst to give the heroes the push for the final fight, and I still say that his part in the last act is a masterclass in how to upstage Marvel villains, considering he actually succeeded in his main goal and lived to see the next film in part because his plan was all about multiple redundancies and genre-savvy moves.

 

[Robin91939]

You've been making some really good posts, Robin91939.

Member for 12 years, was bound to happen. Lol

But seriously -- this was a very good film that is getting a lot of unnecessary hate.

There are fair criticisms to be made.

Most of these aren't those.

-R

 

[The Guard]

What Robin said, plus more. The scenes build and his motivations overlap from scene to scene to complete a clearer picture. This guy Terrio knows subtle character work.

There is still time for the Azzarello elements. You don't blow your Luthor load in one encounter.

 

[Matt]

You've been making some really good posts, Robin91939.

Except that it is almost entirely conjecture and based on logica gaps that the audience shouldn't have to fill. Even the stuff that is directly stated simply raises more questions.

 

[The Guard]

Except that it is almost entirely conjecture and based on logica gaps that the audience shouldn't have to fill. Even the stuff that is directly stated simply raises more questions.

No, much of that is based directly on what Luthor actually says. Like, lifted right out of his speeches and interactions with other characters. Not just an interpretation. Again, I'm sorry you missed it. I encourage you to watch the film again.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Except that it is almost entirely conjecture and based on logica gaps that the audience shouldn't have to fill. Even the stuff that is directly stated simply raises more questions.

I don't think its entirely conjecture, but I agree the bad film editing made things murky. I think a better reaction shot of Lex being surprised by Doomsday attacking him would have gone a long way toward clearing it up (he looked a bit shaken I felt but the moment didn't land right).

 

[godisawesome]

Except that it is almost entirely conjecture and based on logica gaps that the audience shouldn't have to fill. Even the stuff that is directly stated simply raises more questions.

No, much of that is based directly on what Luthor actually says. Like, lifted right out of his speeches and interactions with other characters. Not just an interpretation. Again, I'm sorry you missed it. I encourage you to watch the film again.

Dang it, I said I'd given my last post of the night...

I don't think either of you guys are wrong. I think the story is there, but I think it also could have been much more fleshed out.

Which is why I'm now bound to buy that frickin' Ultimate Cut to see if originally it was...

 

[Jekecy]

Except that it is almost entirely conjecture and based on logica gaps that the audience shouldn't have to fill. Even the stuff that is directly stated simply raises more questions.

Care to share where specifically?

I was apart of the fan screening earlier this week so I'd already peeked ahead of most what the character was. More or less everything outlined was what I had gotten out of Lex, and that was just my first viewing.

Not my preferred iteration (Rosenbaum 4life!), but I was pleased at the development he got. Wasn't until yesterday I took notice fans took issue with "lack" of clarity in his motivations. Which honestly is still a bit perplexing to me. I can semi-agree it wasn't thoroughly explored, but the content is hard to miss. Putting the pieces together is where it seems to have been lost in translation for many.

 

[The Guard]

I'm seeing it again tomorrow, I'll try to point out exactly where it's all said afterward.

 

[The Guard]

It overlaps, builds from scene to scene. Seemingly random statements turn out to have meaning. He's a self hating wannabe God who fears and craves power at the same time. Terrio is a freaking wizard at weaving together his characters.

 

[Clark-Kent]

Member for 12 years, was bound to happen. Lol

But seriously -- this was a very good film that is getting a lot of unnecessary hate.

There are fair criticisms to be made.

Most of these aren't those.

-R

I feel currently that Lex just plain did not work. Forget the motivation for why he is against Superman. Did not need Martha kidnapped and the "countdown" timer for drama in order to have them face off. Did not even need Lois taken to get them to square off. Batman and Superman could have squared off without Lex at all. He said not to shine the light, and Batman did. They had enough motivations that could have been worked out between them, without Lex needing to do THAT much.

Lex should have been responsible for Doomsday, in order to destroy Superman. The rest I didn't feel made a ton of sense. The whole kryptonite spear with Lois throwing it in the water, then going back, then getting stuck.... liiikke? Kind of messy mixed bag towards the end is how I'm feeling at moment. I did like a lot of the first hour or so of the movie, and had higher hopes at that time. It had some unnecessary choices though imho. I didn't think I'd be disappointed but at same time feel the actors were spot on very weird to feel that

 

[Saint]

Edit: I meant to post this in another threade! Move along.

 

[Robin91939]

I feel currently that Lex just plain did not work. Forget the motivation for why he is against Superman. Did not need Martha kidnapped and the "countdown" timer for drama in order to have them face off. Did not even need Lois taken to get them to square off. Batman and Superman could have squared off without Lex at all. He said not to shine the light, and Batman did. They had enough motivations that could have been worked out between them, without Lex needing to do THAT much.

Lex should have been responsible for Doomsday, in order to destroy Superman. The rest I didn't feel made a ton of sense. The whole kryptonite spear with Lois throwing it in the water, then going back, then getting stuck.... liiikke? Kind of messy mixed bag towards the end is how I'm feeling at moment. I did like a lot of the first hour or so of the movie, and had higher hopes at that time. It had some unnecessary choices though imho. I didn't think I'd be disappointed but at same time feel the actors were spot on very weird to feel that

"You think I'll fight him for you?" - Superman to Lex.

Superman wouldn't have fought Batman "to the death" if it wasn't for Martha's life being at stake.

Even with her life at stake, he didn't start fighting to kill until he was exposed to Kryptonite and in real danger and had to fight for his life.

Lois was kidnapped because after the explosion at the Capitol, Superman had disappeared. Lex knew that putting Lois in peril would bring Superman out of hiding.

-R

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

When Superman eluded to considering killing Batman to save his mother

 

[Robin91939]

When Superman eluded to considering killing Batman to save his mother

What?

-R

 

[Bantam99]

He should've played his character like Mark Zuckerburg in the Social Network. His version of Lex can get a little over the top.