Daredevil Jon Bernthal IS Frank Castle / The Punisher!

[ernesth100]

I wish we could have Punisher, Captain America and Wolverine interact. Three men of war and strategy. Too bad...reallt too bad.

 

[Matt Mortem]

Eventually I'd like to see Cap and The Punisher have a scene or two together.

 

[Matt]

I honestly hate it when anyone calls The Punisher one dimensional, he is a complex and interesting character to analyze in relation to being a necessary evil many people wish existed. His trauma and motivations to why he is where is is by itself is truly worth speaking about.

Anywya, Gnucci or Costa family would be great, if they adapted "Welcome Back, Frank" I'd be excited.

Oh come on. "You killed my family, I am going to kill you." It is the most one dimensional trope imaginable. Its not a deep or complex psychological motivation. It is a cliche. Even during the Ennis run (which I think we can all agree is the Punisher at his best) it is one dimensional.

You're right, the character can be used to explore some complex and interesting topics such as grey morality, doing evil things for good reasons, whether the ends justify the means, etc. But even in those stories, these subjects are not explored through the Punisher himself (who is too one dimensional and singularly motivated for that) but rather through characters around him and how his actions impact them. The Punisher is a one dimensional character. His more complex stories come when he is an ancillary character and we explore the impact he has on others. Even in his own stories this is how he works the best.

It is why I think he is best used as a supporting character rather than a lead. The Punisher as an uncompromising, amoral, force of nature, impacting other characters is far more interesting than trying to add depth to a character who really doesn't have much. Exploring the psyche of the Punisher is about as pointless as exploring the psyche of a hurricane. Instead, the better story is viewing the effects that this hurricane has on those around it.

My point is, while he does open some interesting doors for storytelling and I am excited to see him join the Marvel Cinematic Universe for that reason, he, himself, just is not very interesting.

 

[Bruce Malone]

The things with the Punisher he is very black and white. Criminals are bad and deserve to die, no qualms about it.

If they try to make him like every other anti-hero on TV and show him racked with guilt from time to time about what he does then he is not the Punisher.

Characters like DD and Jessica Jones they often second guess what they do or why they do it, that's not Punisher so I have a hard time seeing him support a show in the same way.

As I mentioned even in the Ennis MAX run it's much about the overall world and other characters or more so, than it is about Frank Castle.

 

[Darkraid]

I wanna see Cap turn Punisher into a punching bag just like the scene from Civil War comic.

 

[chamber-music]

Oh come on. "You killed my family, I am going to kill you." It is the most one dimensional trope imaginable. Its not a deep or complex psychological motivation. It is a cliche. Even during the Ennis run (which I think we can all agree is the Punisher at his best) it is .

I have read a ton of punisher comics over the years (War Journal run, War Zone, Max series, the recent runs, ect) and there are multiple stories about the punisher's one man war on crime being more than just revenge for his families murder.

His childhood in a crime ridden neighbourhood. Turning his back on becoming a catholic priest due to his inability to forgive sinners due to his Absolutionist moral view of the world similar to Rorschach from watchmen. Joining the military where he discovers that he actually feels at home on the battlefield and the simplicity of being a soldier on a mission is comforting to him. Frank also develops ptsd from the war. Frank comes back from the war a changed person who struggles to adjust to civilian life. There was also a revelation in the max run that the death of frank's family freed him of civility and he used it as an excuse to return to being that simple soldier on a mission because that is where he believes he belongs. All these elements contributed to building the psychological profile of the punisher and why he does the things he does.

Another use of the character is how others is like you said, his impact on others. Despite most superheroes being vigilantes they do usually believe in the justice system while the punisher does not.

The anti-punisher characters see him as a dangerous deranged serial killer while the pro-punisher characters see him as a necessary evil who's war on crime removes the type of organised criminals that are hard to get.

One issue in the mcu is that just about every hero or shield agent besides daredevil is a unrepentant killer. Even Avengers Black widow and Hawkeye are described as assassins. Coulson murdered ward on agent's of shield in a way that makes him no different from the punisher. The hulk kicked blonsky into tree and broke almost every bone on his body. Iron man killed a bunch of terrorists, his business partner and others without losing any sleep over it. Unlike the comics very few heroes have any moral high ground on the punisher in the cinematic universe.

I think part of the appeal of why the punisher was so popular in the nineties was because he fit that eighties and nineties action man role that Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, Jean Claude Van Damme, Steven Segal & so on had on the big screen.

The Punisher character was also wish fulfilment for the writers and audiences. Many of the story villains are ripped straight from the news headlines at the time. At the hight if the characters popularity he went after real world villains such as ghetto drug dealers, a Bolivian cartel, Missouri white supremacists, a cult led by a proto-Charles Manson, Arab terrorists, and Wall Street inside traders. Even in the recent comic run the Punisher went after Cartels, corrupt Washington government officials and Islamic terrorist.

 

[chamber-music]

The Return to Big Nothing graphic novel which looked at how the Vietnam war affected Frank Castle could be adapted. They would obviously swap Vietnam for the recent middle east conflicts. The story is about The Punisher targeting a smuggling ring and old rival from his Vietnam. You get a glimpses into the Punisher’s damaged psyche, as he referred to his past self in the third person (‘Frank Castle knew him.&#8217

 

[BatsDC]

They didn't say anything about Punisher at the TCAs so I'd imagine they'll wait on Daredevil's release before moving ahead with any plans.

Although EW did note they were seeking out a showrunner

 

[Docker2.0]

Oh come on. "You killed my family, I am going to kill you." It is the most one dimensional trope imaginable. Its not a deep or complex psychological motivation. It is a cliche. Even during the Ennis run (which I think we can all agree is the Punisher at his best) it is one dimensional.

You're right, the character can be used to explore some complex and interesting topics such as grey morality, doing evil things for good reasons, whether the ends justify the means, etc. But even in those stories, these subjects are not explored through the Punisher himself (who is too one dimensional and singularly motivated for that) but rather through characters around him and how his actions impact them. The Punisher is a one dimensional character. His more complex stories come when he is an ancillary character and we explore the impact he has on others. Even in his own stories this is how he works the best.

It is why I think he is best used as a supporting character rather than a lead. The Punisher as an uncompromising, amoral, force of nature, impacting other characters is far more interesting than trying to add depth to a character who really doesn't have much. Exploring the psyche of the Punisher is about as pointless as exploring the psyche of a hurricane. Instead, the better story is viewing the effects that this hurricane has on those around it.

My point is, while he does open some interesting doors for storytelling and I am excited to see him join the Marvel Cinematic Universe for that reason, he, himself, just is not very interesting.

The things with the Punisher he is very black and white. Criminals are bad and deserve to die, no qualms about it.

If they try to make him like every other anti-hero on TV and show him racked with guilt from time to time about what he does then he is not the Punisher.

Characters like DD and Jessica Jones they often second guess what they do or why they do it, that's not Punisher so I have a hard time seeing him support a show in the same way.

As I mentioned even in the Ennis MAX run it's much about the overall world and other characters or more so, than it is about Frank Castle.

You guys are right, he is very black and white but Max_Punisher is right, it makes him a complex character with complex stories. Some of the best stories out there were Punisher stories. The most outlandish ones were when they tried to make him a super powered being like Frankencastle or an Angel.
Even though it's Netflix and I'm sure they will try to limit Frank's bloodlust, they really should note how much fear he puts into criminals. If you just robbed someone and you were in a dark alley and you saw a bat symbol on one side of the alley and Frank's skull on the other, honestly I'd run as fast as I could to that Bat symbol. The last thing I'd want to see(more than likely the last thing I would see)is Frank after I committed any crime.

 

[Matt]

But I think that is the point. The best Punisher stories are those that explore the impact that the character has rather than the character in and of himself. It is why he works better as a supporting character.

 

[Punisher_MAX]

I disagree, examining Frank, his past, his PTSD, "the war he brought home" and his motivation are interesting, especially considering that PTSD is a big topic with Veterans these days.

The Punisher MAX series had plenty of character moments with Frank that showed a deeper well to the character than other comics have especially in the "Up is Down and Black is White", "Long, Cold Dark" and "Widowmaker" from the Max series.

 

[Shockdingo]

I personally hope that he's a mix of the different Punishers, not just the Ennis-Terminator. I liked that the Dixon-era had him still somewhat human and had some emotion.

Also, I know it's sacrilege for me to say this, but I don't want them to pull too much from Ennis, as I said above. As much as I liked Welcome Back Frank and much of MAX, I feel Bernthal's Frank shouldn't solely be modelled after that version. What I mean is having the implication that he really just loved being on the battle field and living in war and that the family loss was an excuse to a go on a never ending war.

I'm fine with him feeling like he belongs on the battlefield, but given a choice, he'd choose his family anyday.

I said this a while back on the forums, but I think that it would be interesting if they showed Frank still very much hurting from his family's loss (especially since this looks like it'll be early in his career) and having trouble functioning in "normal life", so he pours all his soul into preparing for the war, recovering and planning. We should see some cracks in him to show how damaged the whole thing left him, but when he's in soldier mode, he's menacing, almost mythical and terrifying in a world with Armored heroes, invincible rage monsters and so on.

If he's this invincible, stoic guy 100% I don't think it'll work in the long run. I could be biased since I recently started playing Max Payne 3 and saw how inbetween the action, he was really suffering from his loss.

I'm kinda rambling, but I want and (given the current high quality of Netflix's offerings) expect some real depth for Frank. The material's there

I do believe Frank is complex and has many avenues to be taken in for the show and future appearances

 

[TheVileOne]

To me, Frank Castle is not one dimensional. He simply has tunnel vision. He's un-wielding. You can look at him from many different angles. Was he just a normal average joe, or did having all that stripped away give him an excuse to be what he really want to be?

I think the Welcome Back Frank run did a tremendous job of putting you inside the head of Frank Castle and how exactly a guy like that operates.

 

[Paradox1]

I see Frank Castle as a serial killer like Dexter, or Hannibal. In the sense he's a killer you can root for. When they go into their reasoning for killing this person or that person, you know it's crazy talk, but you can find sound logic in it.

 

[Bruce Malone]

That's an interesting comparison but Dexter did have some serious doubts about he was doing and it was more an uncontrollable urge than him seeking out justice/vengeance and Hannibal was a straight up villain.

I think there's a reason Frank has been hard to successfully bring out of the comics. I generally have faith in Netflix though but I'll probably have more faith once I see how he's portrayed on DD.

 

[chamber-music]

I see Frank Castle as a serial killer like Dexter, or Hannibal. In the sense he's a killer you can root for. When they go into their reasoning for killing this person or that person, you know it's crazy talk, but you can find sound logic in it.

I don't think Frank Castles should be portrayed as serial killer. Frank doesn't particular kill for some type of self gratification usually and isn't a ritualistic killer. Frank used to be shown to spare criminals when they sowed genuine signs of remorse and reform. Some comics over the years have certainly made him a serial killer but usually he sees killing criminals no different from killing enemy combatants in a war as he is in a self declared war on organised crime. He does still have moral and ethical codes about not hurting innocent people. The Punisher also stakes outs and builds a solid profile of of the criminals he targets before killing them.

I think one the interesting debates in the comics is the question of Franks sanity. He has obvious signs of mental illness in the case of PTSD and antisocial personality disorder.

The other heroes kill in the Marvel universe and no one complains too much about it so I'm not sure why they would with the Punisher. There were a lot of people who rooted for Hannibal on that show even though he was a awful monster.

I don't think audiences have to like Frank Castle or agree with him but as long as you understand his reasoning for why he does the things he does then that should be fine.

The types of people The Punisher goes after are also usually awful criminals that are shown to be doing terrible things in the comics.

 

[fixxxer]

^

Very nice write up. I'm with you 100%. This is exactly how I would want Frank Castle portrayed on screen.

 

[Docker2.0]

I don't think Frank Castles should be portrayed as serial killer. Frank doesn't particular kill for some type of self gratification usually and isn't a ritualistic killer. Frank used to be shown to spare criminals when they sowed genuine signs of remorse and reform. Some comics over the years have certainly made him a serial killer but usually he sees killing criminals no different from killing enemy combatants in a war as he is in a self declared war on organised crime. He does still have moral and ethical codes about not hurting innocent people. The Punisher also stakes outs and builds a solid profile of of the criminals he targets before killing them.

I think one the interesting debates in the comics is the question of Franks sanity. He has obvious signs of mental illness in the case of PTSD and antisocial personality disorder.

The other heroes kill in the Marvel universe and no one complains too much about it so I'm not sure why they would with the Punisher. There were a lot of people who rooted for Hannibal on that show even though he was a awful monster.

I don't think audiences have to like Frank Castle or agree with him but as long as you understand his reasoning for why he does the things he does then that should be fine.

The types of people The Punisher goes after are also usually awful criminals that are shown to be doing terrible things in the comics.

Agree 99%. The only part I don't agree with is the highlighted part. There was a point in time in the comics where Frank would kill people for jaywalking. That's a tadbit extreme.
I also think the reason Frank hasn't been brought to film properly is because people have tried two different extremes with him. In the Jane film, they were trying to turn a R rated character into a PG-13 one which doesn't always work out. In the Steven's movie, they just went all hardcore and cartoony which is a horrible mix and it showed. I honestly think Netflix is the best place for him. The way Marvel handled the Kingpin has given me complete confidence that they can do it right.

 

[Zarex]

It would be great to see the Punisher version of the hallway fight. Methinks the situation would be wrapped up rather quickly.

 

[chamber-music]

Agree 99%. The only part I don't agree with is the highlighted part. There was a point in time in the comics where Frank would kill people for jaywalking. That's a tadbit extreme.
I also think the reason Frank hasn't been brought to film properly is because people have tried two different extremes with him. In the Jane film, they were trying to turn a R rated character into a PG-13 one which doesn't always work out. In the Steven's movie, they just went all hardcore and cartoony which is a horrible mix and it showed. I honestly think Netflix is the best place for him. The way Marvel handled the Kingpin has given me complete confidence that they can do it right.

To be fair when bill mantlo wrote the punisher shooting jaywalkers and litterbugs in spider-man it was when marvel wasn't sure if they wanted the character to be a villain or anti-hero. By the time he got his own ongoing series off the back of circle of blood they decided he should be an anti hero.

The writing on the Netflix shows is great. They really try to get under characters skin to show you what makes them tick which neither of the last two punisher films really did.

 

[TheVileOne]

The Thomas Jane movie wasn't PG-13. It was Rated R.

 

[Shockdingo]

I don't think Frank Castles should be portrayed as serial killer. Frank doesn't particular kill for some type of self gratification usually and isn't a ritualistic killer. Frank used to be shown to spare criminals when they sowed genuine signs of remorse and reform.

Totally agree with your views, man!

 

[TheVileOne]

I mean the dude is clearly not what one would describe as sane, but yeah I wouldn't describe him as a serial killer either.

I'm not sure I would even call him a sociopath. Maybe he's a borderline sociopath, but unlike a common sociopath, he has a moral compass. He has a sense of moral responsibility and somewhat of a conscience in that he always plans to avoid collateral damage. His war is against "the guilty." He's taken on the role of judge, jury and executioner, but he goes after criminals and scumbags, not the regular average joes.

Now maybe he enjoys delivering pain to criminals because it's really the only way he knows how to live. Maybe he doesn't know how to cope without it. Maybe as time went on, what happened to his family is his excuse to do what he does. Regardless, I'm not sure calling him a serial killer or sociopath is accurate.

He had a pretty pragmatic point of view for Civil War and he basically stayed out of it until pro-registration side started using criminals and super-villains. That for him is what set him toward Cap's side. And even then, Cap didn't want him around either.

 

[Bruce Malone]

No he's not a sociopath he can feel human emotion but I'd say he's similar to Rorschach from Watchmen where he sees the world in brutal black and white.

Someone who believes in total moral absolutism and as we know Rorschach wasn't all there either.

 

[Paradox1]

By definition according to the FBI Frank Castle would be considered a serial murder. Here is their defintion

Serial Murder: The unlawful killing of two or more victims by the same offender(s), in separate events.

they can use the death penalty as a theme. For example do you choose to look the other way at murder when it's the undesirable of society.