Comics Just re-read the Death of Gwen Stacy...

[The Schweitz]

I read this about two years ago for the first time in TPB form, but I've been trying to read all the Stan Lee issues and so on since. I just got the her death and decided to re-read it seeing as I would get the full impact and boy did I. What a fantastic story (not that I didn't appreciate it the first time, but now I really get it.) But, after reading this again I've realized that (in my opinion) Spider-Man has been forever ruined with the unmasking. After reading this again and thinking of the unmasking it doesn't make ANY sense at all. And seeing MJ at the end of it deciding to stay with Pete makes me realize more than ever that she is the one for Pete. Quesada keeps saying it's the mirage thats ruined Spider-Man, but I think it's changing the characters common sense and spirit.

 

[Kraven]

I think it's possibly the best Spidey story I've read. And I wouldn't be too worried, I'm sure he won't remain unmasked forever.

 

[wolvie2020]

I think it's possibly the best Spidey story I've read. And I wouldn't be too worried, I'm sure he won't remain unmasked forever.

What he said, times a million

 

[Shifty]

I also just read this as part of the Essentials book. Now I haven't read all the issues with Gwen leading up to her death but it was still great to read the story. tI had seen in different water downed versions (USM, Spider-Man movie, Spider-Man Animated series) but this was "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" This is when the Green Goblin died and wasn't supposed to return. I didn't expect the ending with MJ, outside the two deaths, it was the best thing in the story.
Knowing that Gwen had a relationship with Norman and that Spidey would unmask.... that's not Stan Lee's Spider-Man. That's Marvel Comic's $pider-Man.

 

[Shifty]

I just read the story in the Essentials book. Now I haven't read all the comics that had Gwen in them to have her death to have the impact but it was still a great read. I've seen water downed version in USM, the Spidey movie and 90's cartoon but a comic from the early 70s still holds today. MJ at the end surprised me and outside the two deaths was the best thing in the comic.

Knowing that Gwen had Norman's children and that Spidey would unmask.... that's not Stan Lee's Spider-Man, that's Marvel Comics' $pider-Man.

 

[mre]

I think it's possibly the best Spidey story I've read. And I wouldn't be too worried, I'm sure he won't remain unmasked forever.

I think my favorite Spidey story of all time would have to be the death of Captain Stacey.

 

[The Joker]

I think it's possibly the best Spidey story I've read.

Yeah, and Marvel have crapped all over it now. Norman is alive. Goblin didn't kill Gwen just to punish Peter. He did it because Gwen was keeping their bastard kids from him.

Nothing is sacred anymore with Joe Q at the helm.

 

[wolvie2020]

Yeah, and Marvel have crapped all over it now. Norman is alive. Goblin didn't kill Gwen just to punish Peter. He did it because Gwen was keeping their bastard kids from him.

Nothing is sacred anymore with Joe Q at the helm.

It's a bit of a double edge sword though...

If it wasn't for being fearless and not being too precious we wouldn't have great stories like 'The Winter Soldier.'

Obviously, Joey Q doesn't know when to stop and isn't afraid of taking it too far either, e.g. ruining one of the most imortant storylines of all time...

I do have to ask you guys... What would all of you have thought if it turned out that Norman had raped Gwen? And MJ never knew about the kids either?

You know, as morbid as it sounds, I think I may have even liked the story... I don't know why, I know it's a hardcore and serious twist, but I think it would've only added more impact too an already greatly tragic story

 

[The Schweitz]

I think if Norman had raped Gwen then it wouldn't have ruined the character of Gwen by making her a ****. It would have made Norman more evil but I'm not sure if it's a story they should talk about in a Spider-Man comic.




Wait, just remembered the Spider-Man Black Cat series by Kevin Smith. In thinking back, lets let all the characters get raped.

 

[Dragon]

Having Norman rape Gwen wouldn't have worked either, for several reasons.

First, given the story as is, it's at least reasonable that Gwen might hide an affair with Osborn. But she'd have no reason to hide a rape, and unlikely she'd carry a rape-pregnancy to term.

But mostly, the concept would be as pointless as the one we got and quickly swept under the rug. Remember, the original concept was Peter and Gwen having kids, which would challenge Peter's life.

Having Osborn rape Gwen would do nothing other than give Peter another reason to hate Osborn (as if he needed one) still damage continuity and give one more reason that Peter is a wimp, since he's already done nothing to bring Osborn to justice for Gwen's and baby May's deaths.

 

[Kraven]

Yeah, and Marvel have crapped all over it now. Norman is alive. Goblin didn't kill Gwen just to punish Peter. He did it because Gwen was keeping their bastard kids from him.

Nothing is sacred anymore with Joe Q at the helm.

You know, I wouldn't mind Joe Q half as much, if he just stopped screwing with Peter's life.

 

[wolvie2020]

You know, I wouldn't mind Joe Q half as much, if he just stopped screwing with Peter's life.

That's SO true. JQ has actually done a lot of real cool stuff for the MU, but he just seems to try and destroy Marvel's original hard luck kid.

 

[Flint Marko]

I read this about two years ago for the first time in TPB form, but I've been trying to read all the Stan Lee issues and so on since. I just got the her death and decided to re-read it seeing as I would get the full impact and boy did I. What a fantastic story (not that I didn't appreciate it the first time, but now I really get it.) But, after reading this again I've realized that (in my opinion) Spider-Man has been forever ruined with the unmasking. After reading this again and thinking of the unmasking it doesn't make ANY sense at all. And seeing MJ at the end of it deciding to stay with Pete makes me realize more than ever that she is the one for Pete. Quesada keeps saying it's the mirage thats ruined Spider-Man, but I think it's changing the characters common sense and spirit.

well said.

 

[fangrl06]

I read this about two years ago for the first time in TPB form, but I've been trying to read all the Stan Lee issues and so on since. I just got the her death and decided to re-read it seeing as I would get the full impact and boy did I. What a fantastic story (not that I didn't appreciate it the first time, but now I really get it.) But, after reading this again I've realized that (in my opinion) Spider-Man has been forever ruined with the unmasking. After reading this again and thinking of the unmasking it doesn't make ANY sense at all. And seeing MJ at the end of it deciding to stay with Pete makes me realize more than ever that she is the one for Pete. Quesada keeps saying it's the mirage thats ruined Spider-Man, but I think it's changing the characters common sense and spirit.

Yeah, that was easily one of the greatest SM moments of all time.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

But she'd have no reason to hide a rape, and unlikely she'd carry a rape-pregnancy to term.

That doesn't sound right to me. She'd consider it her child, no matter the circumstances. She's not the type to have an abortion.

 

[wolvie2020]

That doesn't sound right to me. She'd consider it her child, no matter the circumstances. She's not the type to have an abortion.

I dunno, Gwen did seem quite liberal at times...

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Being liberal has nothing to do with whether she would have an abortion faced with the choice.

 

[Dragon]

Being liberal has nothing to do with whether she would have an abortion faced with the choice.

Why would she consider it her child if it was an unwanted pregnancy caused by rape? Women abort pregnancies that occur with men they love.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Why would she consider it her child if it was an unwanted pregnancy caused by rape? Women abort pregnancies that occur with men they love.

Yeah I know.

But Gwen?

I can't see it.

MJ, maybe under a certain set of circumstances, but I can't see Gwen getting rid of the kid.

 

[wolvie2020]

Why would she consider it her child if it was an unwanted pregnancy caused by rape? Women abort pregnancies that occur with men they love.

Exactly... We're talkinag about rape from an evil psychotic man... It's hard to bring up a kid right when they have a tendacy to be a murdering psycho is in his/her genes.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Exactly... We're talkinag about rape from an evil psychotic man... It's hard to bring up a kid right when they have a tendacy to be a murdering psycho is in his/her genes.

A lot of the Osborn family problems have more to do with how they're raised by their fathers than genes.

 

[Dragon]

A lot of the Osborn family problems have more to do with how they're raised by their fathers than genes.

In Osborn's case you have the Goblin formula in his blood, which effected his sanity, and would likely have adverse effects on a child (I'm saying given that the story was well-written, unlike SP).

But overall I just don't see Gwen as accepting being victimized. She never was that way in the comics. Yes, when Gwen loved, she loved for keeps. But when she was pissed, that was pretty much through and through as well.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

In Osborn's case you have the Goblin formula in his blood, which effected his sanity, and would likely have adverse effects on a child

Good point, I hadn't considered that. Still, at the time Gwen wouldn't have known since she didn't know the truth about Osborn.


Ugh, even talking about it is making me feel dirty.

(I'm saying given that the story was well-written, unlike SP).

But overall I just don't see Gwen as accepting being victimized.

What do you mean by victimized?

 

[freemadison]

But she'd have no reason to hide a rape, and unlikely she'd carry a rape-pregnancy to term.

ummm....i'm reading it over and over and now my head hurts.

 

[Shmoil]

I too am going back and reading all of the original issues. And wow, issues 121 and 122 are amazingly powerful. I just finished them literally five minutes ago. One aspect that nobody here has mentioned, that really moved me, was when Peter went to talk with Harry, but when he saw that Harry was in no state to talk to, he left. With Harry begging Peter to stay, Peter left. Not that I blame Peter, but it was a really powerful moment, I though. And Harry kneeling at the top of the stairs crying, whimpering that he his all alone, with the door below him slamming, I really loved that. But definitely, the two deaths and this aside, the MJ moment at the end was fantastic. These are the two single greatest issues of S-M I've ever read.