Comics Keeping or Dropping ASM?

[Dangerous]

I think not.

 

[Blader5489]

I'm sure the store's manager begs to differ.

 

[The Joker]

He's right, Dangerous.

You're getting the service from the product without paying for it. Your comic store must have a staff shortage or something. My comic book stores are always watching to see if customers are spending ages reading a comic book.

 

[Dangerous]

Ok I guess there is an argument in there.

Two things though- 1) it's not like reading the comic renders it unfit to sell. It gets placed back on the shelf in the condition I picked it up. 2) I don't care.

I buy my books from either the Forbidden Planet chain of stores in various citys, or in an independent comic store I have been frequenting since '96. Neither the FP stores or my hometown store give a damn if I stand there for half an hour or more reading comics. I guess in other stores it's a different story.

If you take WHSmith (they have them in Ireland right?), I am sure you are aware you can stand there all day reading magazines and it's perfectly cool. If it's a nationwide company then the people in the shop are not going to care if you read the comics/magazines, but I guess if it's a smaller business then it might be different.

 

[Sloth7d]

Meh, my comic shop has no problem with me reading through an issue or two. I'm a regular, and a member so that's what I'll be doin.

Or ifyou buy your comics from Barns and Noble they definately don't care if you read their stuff.

 

[iloveclones]

It's no different than sneaking into a movie theater. Justify it all you want, it's still stealing. Just because it's tolerated doesn't change what it is.

 

[Dangerous]

I think this is a little naive. Marvel Entertainment is a publicly traded company. It is not an independent coffee shop where they can put up interesting paintings and play fringe music. They are Starbucks. They are answering to shareholders and a board of directors. And not a single one of them cares, at all, about the integrity of any of their characters. Hell, if they thought they could pimp out Humbug to the makers of Raid, they would. They care about money, money, and more money. Considering EICs have to contend with that pressure, I'm surprised that they're able to churn out any good stories at all.

Ultimately, the degree to which the higher powers breath down JQ’s neck is all speculation on our part. Considering that for some 40 plus years Marvel managed to put out Spider-Man story’s that made sense and generally portrayed the main cast in character, I find it hard to buy the theory that these suits exude such pressure for high sales over JQ that he feels the need to resort to churning out these craptastic event arcs for every other storyline. Why would this finally happen now when the company is probably more financially stable than it has ever been, verses the past?

No that is not what is happening. What is happening is the writers/editorial on the Spider books no longer know what direction to take the character in. As a result,- this running out of gas has allowed JQ’s out of touch agenda to take control of Spider-Man comics and force the status quo into the contrived and miss guided place it is headed.

As for how interesting MJ has been in the past: the one example you gave me was of MJ fighting demons. How exactly is that different than being Jackpot? That she wasn't wearing a costume?

It’s different because MJ is a tough kick ass gal that does not need any powers or costume to rely on. That is who she is and part of what makes her so appealing to the fans. She does not need a cheesy costume or superhero identity to kick ass. That’s kinda like writing MJ but totally missing the point of who she is don‘t you think? It’s that she is tough, but not a dorky superhero that is part of what makes her cool.

Supporting characters can be interesting without ever throwing a punch. Spidey-titles have been chock full of them throughout it's history: Aunt May, MJ, Gwen, Harry, JJJ, Betty, Ned, Deb, Glory, Robbie, Randy, Mrs. Muggins, and the list goes on and on. All of them contribute to the story, but they don't even have to be part of the action. Personally, I think the biggest mistake they make with MJ is giving in to the temptation of putting her in the middle of the action. I don't want to read The Amazing Spider-Man and MJ (I know some of you do.) I want to see her have a life, and have it complicate Pete's life. That's it.

I know all those characters have been great and contributed to Spidey’s world in a meaningful way without engaging in fisticuffs. I think you have misconstrued my reference to MJ kicking ass somewhat. When I noted MJ being tough (ASM#312 ..I think), I was not saying that MJ has to be in the thick of the action throwing punches like Spidey every issue, I was just noting that this particular subplot worked well because it was fun to read and also showcased a couple different aspects of MJ‘s character.

That’s what I meant when I said Michelinie was skilled at writing the tangled web or Spidey soap opera. He was good at writing an authentic world that PP/SM existed within, because it was comprised of other interesting/entertaining/meaningful characters that the readers cared about, and crucially had lives of their own outside of Spider-Man. JMS’ take on MJ for the last few years has basically consisted of her being a pretty face who sits around waiting for Peter to return home and essentially has no life. How in any way is that an accurate presentation of the foxy and fun loving Mary Jane Watson?

The truth is, like a lot of couples in "real life", I don't feel any chemistry between them. And that is a funny thing to say about fictional characters. Because a writer should be able to write chemistry. But there are very few issues that I can point to where I've felt that (and most of them, as I've stated before, are recently or pre-marriage. The one annual where he swings in and saves her from the coffee shop is one) David Michelinie did write a decent couple, but even that was a looong time ago (and to be fair, still in the honeymoon phase)

Honeymoon phase or not that point is pretty much moot since they are fictitious characters.

It all comes down to the writer, DeMatties could write them w/ chemistry, so could Michelinie. In recent times it’s hard to note any particular instances because I find JMS’ whole ‘God I love her so much’ crap pretty forced and cheesy. Aside from those ASM issues, their relationship has been largely ignored in the last few years. If anything it has often seemed like there is more chemistry between PP and Felicia than w/ MJ, but that is down to the writers. It does not invalidate the chemistry they do have together if written well.

In the end, I don't think this marriage is any more dead than Captain America is (or Superman was). I think they just want to put a big obstacle in Pete's path, and make the fans clamor for MJs return. And I'm alright with that. Obstacles are gooood.

I hope so.

It just seems to me that if it does get erased in such a way as is about to seemingly transpire,- they sure are making a hell of a lot of work for themselves if they plan to undo it anytime soon. Why not just split them up? Get a divorce? The way they are going about it seems pretty final to me- at least for however long is left under JQ’s tenure as EIC.

I’m sure they will get back together again, just not anytime soon seeing as the last time they got back together was only 4 years ago. Considering that this eventual re-consummation of the marriage is likely inevitable, I would rather appreciate some meaningful direction in the flagship book than any more 'obstacles'. I'd like to see ASM helmed by a writer w/ a grand vision for the title instead of yet more horse sh1t.

 

[Dangerous]

It's no different than sneaking into a movie theater. Justify it all you want, it's still stealing. Just because it's tolerated doesn't change what it is.

Ok man if that works for you Il agree it is stealing.
Like I said though, I don't care.

JQ has shafted Spider-Man enough, so Il read his crappy comics for free if I like and he can suck it.

 

[Sloth7d]

It's no different than sneaking into a movie theater. Justify it all you want, it's still stealing. Just because it's tolerated doesn't change what it is.

I would think this is more comparable to listening to the music on headphones at Barnes and Noble more than getting a free look at a movie. It's completely different.

 

[Havok83]

I dropped it. Its too much to keep up with now

 

[iloveclones]

I would say it's somewhere in between. If comic shops wanted you to do it, they'd provide some comfy chairs for you. I doubt many of you could claim that. I mean, sure, they don't chase you away because they probably view it as a necessary evil. Advertising if you will. But if you walked into the store and told the owner, "I never intend on buying this title. I just want some ammo for SHH, so suck it," I'm sure they'd be less than pleased. And believe me, it's the owner of the store you're saying suck it to. JMS and JQ are doing just fine.

Look, it's not like I've never snuck into a drive-in theater or browsed a comic on a rack. But I don't go around saying it's justified because the movie sucks.

Every once in a while I trot out this saying from a local sports commentator, talking about our dreadful Pirates, and their long, long suffering fans. He was answering a question about fans being angry about this or that, and he said, "Fans being angry is good. It means they still care. When they stop calling the show and complaining, then the Pirates are in real trouble."

I say this because, in Marvel's eyes, the next best thing to you buying the comic, is reading it and coming here to complain about it. In fact, it's probably better, because it acts as a multiplier. It surprises me that you guys fall for this every time. It's not us guys who read it every month anyway that cause these big spikes in sales. I mean, we're only buying one! It's guys that come to places like this, see all the chatter, and say, "Hmmm, I think I'll see what all the fuss is about." And here's the best part: you've now entered the game of lowered expectations. Some poor sap will buy the comic thinking he'll see a train wreck, and when it's not that bad, he'll say, "Hmm, it's not that bad. I don't know what all the comlaining was about..." and Viola, a new reader. One that isn't so entrenched in whatever the contoversy is (organics, clones, MJ) because he was just a fringe fan anyway. Now, because of you, he's bought his first Spidey comic, and maybe he'll keep reading.

 

[farmernudie]

No matter how much fans complain....no matter who writes it or draws it....no matter how single they make Pete....Spider-Man WILL NOT suddenly skyrocket after OMD.

There is 0% doubt in my mind that in one year from now...PEte and MJ will finally be able to "recall" that they're married to each other again. They will look like maroons for dating people the past year while thier minds were timewiped. Amazing 3X a year from now will be a thing of the past. Web and Spectacular will be the new other Spidey books launced with shiney new # 1's slapped on their covers.

JQ is gonna take us a for long ride out to left field but eventually we will all end up right back here again and they'll be re-shapping and tweaking and fixing things again.

I just wish they'd do it right the first time and not waste our time. Regression instead of progression doesn't get me all Rah-rah sisk coom-ba!

 

[Dangerous]

All this BS is just a waste of time.

ASM needs to be helmed by a writer who knows what he is doing and has meaningful plans, not just making it up as he gos along.

 

[farmernudie]

Iloveclones: I say this because, in Marvel's eyes, the next best thing to you buying the comic, is reading it and coming here to complain about it. In fact, it's probably better, because it acts as a multiplier. It surprises me that you guys fall for this every time. It's not us guys who read it every month anyway that cause these big spikes in sales. I mean, we're only buying one! It's guys that come to places like this, see all the chatter, and say, "Hmmm, I think I'll see what all the fuss is about." And here's the best part: you've now entered the game of lowered expectations. Some poor sap will buy the comic thinking he'll see a train wreck, and when it's not that bad, he'll say, "Hmm, it's not that bad. I don't know what all the comlaining was about..." and Viola, a new reader. One that isn't so entrenched in whatever the contoversy is (organics, clones, MJ) because he was just a fringe fan anyway. Now, because of you, he's bought his first Spidey comic, and maybe he'll keep reading.

haha...doubtful....but if some poor sap makes his comic book reading choices by going to random boards and looking for poor reviews or low expectation...to then go blow his hard earned money on that said comic.....and IF that is the kind of new reader Marvel wants...lol...then that is hilarious and I'd feel bad for "the guy" looking to start reading comics, with his criteria being disgruntled fans complaining about how characters are out of character and continuity thrown out the window (often, but not always...but yeh, in the particular cases people have discussed here recently.)

"YEH-THAT"S WHAT I WANT TO READ!"

IF marvel is out for fringe fans...all they have to do is write ALL their characters in asinine ways and situations...and voila...fan feedback will sink low...and nutjobs can surf the boards and find out what (currently)stinky comics he should read.

I don't think this theory holds up tho.

Anyone on here, sensibly & smartly backing up what they are saddened by in the current state of spidey is in no way going to help sell comics, imo.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

I droped Spider-Man a long time ago,i only buy certain paperbacks now.

 

[Sloth7d]

I would say it's somewhere in between. If comic shops wanted you to do it, they'd provide some comfy chairs for you. I doubt many of you could claim that. I mean, sure, they don't chase you away because they probably view it as a necessary evil. Advertising if you will. But if you walked into the store and told the owner, "I never intend on buying this title. I just want some ammo for SHH, so suck it," I'm sure they'd be less than pleased. And believe me, it's the owner of the store you're saying suck it to. JMS and JQ are doing just fine.

Look, it's not like I've never snuck into a drive-in theater or browsed a comic on a rack. But I don't go around saying it's justified because the movie sucks.

If the distributor really didn't want you to read it, they'd cover the comic in plastic. But this isn't comparable to sneaking in a movie theatre since that's paying for admission and not possesion. This is more comparable to listening to the headphones at Barns and Noble which isn't stealing.

I say this because, in Marvel's eyes, the next best thing to you buying the comic, is reading it and coming here to complain about it. In fact, it's probably better, because it acts as a multiplier. It surprises me that you guys fall for this every time. It's not us guys who read it every month anyway that cause these big spikes in sales. I mean, we're only buying one! It's guys that come to places like this, see all the chatter, and say, "Hmmm, I think I'll see what all the fuss is about." And here's the best part: you've now entered the game of lowered expectations. Some poor sap will buy the comic thinking he'll see a train wreck, and when it's not that bad, he'll say, "Hmm, it's not that bad. I don't know what all the comlaining was about..." and Viola, a new reader. One that isn't so entrenched in whatever the contoversy is (organics, clones, MJ) because he was just a fringe fan anyway. Now, because of you, he's bought his first Spidey comic, and maybe he'll keep reading.

Hahaha. that's a lot of speculation there. But whether we complain about it or not, they'll read the comic reguardless because others are talking about it. I see our chatter as a warning. It's not like they won't hear about MJ breaking up with Peter or her becoming a superhero. And if that's trully a comic they want to buy, so be it. I won't. Marvel isn't getting anymore of my money for Spider-man comics until this crap is stopped. And if that doesn't change anything, owell, it's not the end of the world. But I will never buy another # of ASM again.

 

[Gabbra49]

The borders i go to for my newstand comics have chairs where you can read the comics. They encourage reading of their books. Comic shops dont encourage reading because they have a smaller market of customers. Truth is it isnt stealing. My LCS owner was even first to admit that. Because they have a smaller market they dont want people reading the issues than leaving. On the other hand borders can do that because they have a huge market to pull from. IF a bunch of people come in and read a book and dont buy it o well. Their is about 300 to 400 customers that will buy somthing. So its not stealing its really a matter of difference in markets. I mean you can't really get arrested for reading somthing in a store. The second their is a law against reading in a comic store than its stealing. As for now their is no law against therefore its not stealing. This really isnt a matter of opinion but mere facts.

 

[iloveclones]

Ultimately, the degree to which the higher powers breath down JQ’s neck is all speculation on our part. Considering that for some 40 plus years Marvel managed to put out Spider-Man story’s that made sense and generally portrayed the main cast in character, I find it hard to buy the theory that these suits exude such pressure for high sales over JQ that he feels the need to resort to churning out these craptastic event arcs for every other storyline. Why would this finally happen now when the company is probably more financially stable than it has ever been, verses the past?

No that is not what is happening. What is happening is the writers/editorial on the Spider books no longer know what direction to take the character in. As a result,- this running out of gas has allowed JQ’s out of touch agenda to take control of Spider-Man comics and force the status quo into the contrived and miss guided place it is headed.



It’s different because MJ is a tough kick ass gal that does not need any powers or costume to rely on. That is who she is and part of what makes her so appealing to the fans. She does not need a cheesy costume or superhero identity to kick ass. That’s kinda like writing MJ but totally missing the point of who she is don‘t you think? It’s that she is tough, but not a dorky superhero that is part of what makes her cool.



I know all those characters have been great and contributed to Spidey’s world in a meaningful way without engaging in fisticuffs. I think you have misconstrued my reference to MJ kicking ass somewhat. When I noted MJ being tough (ASM#312 ..I think), I was not saying that MJ has to be in the thick of the action throwing punches like Spidey every issue, I was just noting that this particular subplot worked well because it was fun to read and also showcased a couple different aspects of MJ‘s character.

That’s what I meant when I said Michelinie was skilled at writing the tangled web or Spidey soap opera. He was good at writing an authentic world that PP/SM existed within, because it was comprised of other interesting/entertaining/meaningful characters that the readers cared about, and crucially had lives of their own outside of Spider-Man. JMS’ take on MJ for the last few years has basically consisted of her being a pretty face who sits around waiting for Peter to return home and essentially has no life. How in any way is that an accurate presentation of the foxy and fun loving Mary Jane Watson?



Honeymoon phase or not that point is pretty much moot since they are fictitious characters.

It all comes down to the writer, DeMatties could write them w/ chemistry, so could Michelinie. In recent times it’s hard to note any particular instances because I find JMS’ whole ‘God I love her so much’ crap pretty forced and cheesy. Aside from those ASM issues, their relationship has been largely ignored in the last few years. If anything it has often seemed like there is more chemistry between PP and Felicia than w/ MJ, but that is down to the writers. It does not invalidate the chemistry they do have together if written well.



I hope so.

It just seems to me that if it does get erased in such a way as is about to seemingly transpire,- they sure are making a hell of a lot of work for themselves if they plan to undo it anytime soon. Why not just split them up? Get a divorce? The way they are going about it seems pretty final to me- at least for however long is left under JQ’s tenure as EIC.

I’m sure they will get back together again, just not anytime soon seeing as the last time they got back together was only 4 years ago. Considering that this eventual re-consummation of the marriage is likely inevitable, I would rather appreciate some meaningful direction in the flagship book than any more 'obstacles'. I'd like to see ASM helmed by a writer w/ a grand vision for the title instead of yet more horse sh1t.

I don't know what you wanted me to respond to here, Dangerous. As far as comics go, if I don't like them, I don't want to waste my time discussing them. I mean, hell, i already wasted my money, why would I want to waste my time? And the ones I like? If I find people are receptive to my opinion, I'll try to "sell" someone on a title. I find Spider-fans to be the opposite of that though. They're pretty polarized, and I don't want to waste my time.

I will say that what I bolded above, we definately agree on. It was the one thing that I really disliked about the JMS era, the preponderance of sayings like "She's more important than the air I breathe." Made me want to vomit. What's the writers creed, Show, don't tell? I felt like he was hitting me with a two-by-four and saying "See, they're in love! He said so!!" But then, I was never "married" to the marriage, so I always felt I was biased.

 

[iloveclones]

Anyone on here, sensibly & smartly backing up what they are saddened by in the current state of spidey is in no way going to help sell comics, imo.

Maybe you can point out to me when that happens.

 

[iloveclones]

You guys are hilarious how far you're willing to go to justify reading in a store. How about we try a little experiment: Go to your LCBS and find the owner (the owner, not the poor sap he's paying $7/hr to) and tell him straight up, "I have no intention of ever buying any of these magazines because I think they suck. I'm just gonna read them and put them back. That cool?" If you can do that (and you're not lying), than I'll be more than willing to admit that I'm wrong. But I'm not. By the way, downloading music and comics without paying for it is stealing too.

 

[Dangerous]

I will say that what I bolded above, we definately agree on. It was the one thing that I really disliked about the JMS era, the preponderance of sayings like "She's more important than the air I breathe." Made me want to vomit. What's the writers creed, Show, don't tell? I felt like he was hitting me with a two-by-four and saying "See, they're in love! He said so!!" But then, I was never "married" to the marriage, so I always felt I was biased.

Nah, you are right.
JMS' version of MJ and PP in love was pretty ham fisted... like how I imagine one of those housewife's romance novels would read ..

You guys are hilarious how far you're willing to go to justify reading in a store. How about we try a little experiment: Go to your LCBS and find the owner (the owner, not the poor sap he's paying $7/hr to) and tell him straight up, "I have no intention of ever buying any of these magazines because I think they suck. I'm just gonna read them and put them back. That cool?" If you can do that (and you're not lying), than I'll be more than willing to admit that I'm wrong. But I'm not. By the way, downloading music and comics without paying for it is stealing too.

Buddy, I don't know why you are stressing so much about this unless you are some sort of hyper moral crusader.

Sure if I went up to the store owner and said 'hey!, I'l just be over in the corner reading comics for free' he might say no deal, but I don't point this out because I want to read comics for free sometimes.

Maybe to you this is some terrible crime but I don't see it that way, and as such, don't care. The comic shop is there to facilitate ALL my weekly comicbook needs which includes- buying comics/trades, plus reading whatever comics I like for free. I think also- if you are the a regular paying customer of the store, it's even less of a small deal.

 

[iloveclones]

Nah, you are right.
JMS' version of MJ and PP in love was pretty ham fisted... like how I imagine one of those housewife's romance novels would read ..



Buddy, I don't know why you are stressing so much about this unless you are some sort of hyper moral crusader.

Sure if I went up to the store owner and said 'hey!, I'l just be over in the corner reading comics for free' he might say no deal, but I don't point this out because I want to read comics for free sometimes.

Maybe to you this is some terrible crime but I don't see it that way, and as such, don't care. The comic shop is there to facilitate ALL my weekly comicbook needs which includes- buying comics/trades, plus reading whatever comics I like for free. I think also- if you are the a regular paying customer of the store, it's even less of a small deal.

I really had no intention of making a big deal about it at all. I just don't like when people justify it. I'm no saint. I've snuck into movies, downloaded comics, and read them in the store. But I understand that I am fractionally (maybe micro-fractionally is a better word) stealing from the creators and publishers.

 

[Dangerous]

Trust me,- there are a lot worse things in the world that people justify than reading a comic for free in a shop.

 

[Sloth7d]

You guys are hilarious how far you're willing to go to justify reading in a store. How about we try a little experiment: Go to your LCBS and find the owner (the owner, not the poor sap he's paying $7/hr to) and tell him straight up, "I have no intention of ever buying any of these magazines because I think they suck. I'm just gonna read them and put them back. That cool?" If you can do that (and you're not lying), than I'll be more than willing to admit that I'm wrong. But I'm not. By the way, downloading music and comics without paying for it is stealing too.

This isn't about you admitting you're wrong. This is about proving you're right, which you still haven't done at all. Yes, illegaly downloading comics and music IS stealing, however that is not the main subject of argument here. You still fail to prove that reading a comic in a store or listening to a C-D on the Barnes and Noble headphones are acts against the law. Show me the law that saids these are verbotten acts and I'll admit that I'm wrong. So far all of your claims are subjective or biased opinion, none of which are conclusive fact or concrete proof.

 

[Gabbra49]

exactly what i said, until their is a law against it then its not illegal.