Ken Ham vs Bill Nye (Is creation a viable model of origins?)

[The End]

You know what really impressed me about Bill Nye is how he presented the concept of being a reasonable man, and he made very straight forward points that anyone can understand.

If Noah's arc was real, why are kangeroos only found in Australia? How did they get there from the middle east and why has no one found their fossils of their journey from the mid east to Australia?

Is it reasonable to believe that only 8 people can build the biggest wooden boat in history when even expert shipwrights much later in history couldn't build one that didn't bend and break out in the ocean?

How do you get 16 million species from only 4000-7000 that were around during Noah's ark? Someone would have noticed 11 new species per day.

Surely, there are creationists reflecting on those questions, and being forced to reassess their beliefs.

 

[Breogan]

Surely, there are creationists reflecting on those questions, and being forced to reassess their beliefs.

Don't count on it.

Their creation god can do anything they want, so it fits with what's in the bible.
How do they "know" this? ... because the bible said so.

There is nothing getting in there.

That's how you can throw out scientific evidence and have people riding dinos to Australia after the flood!

And thanks to this debate, he can now pay to build the "museum" where they can see it happen...

 

[jmc]

As much as I respect Nye for coming out swinging for science, Neil deGrasse Tyson would have hit the point further home I believe. Nye really wasn't debating to be honest, he won the debate 5 mins after Ham had concluded his opening speech. Nye was basically pleading to the audience to keep religion out of the school science books. The truth is there is no scientific alternative to evolution that works, until such a time that one comes along that's all we should be teaching in the science classrooms.

 

[Marvolo]

You know what really impressed me about Bill Nye is how he presented the concept of being a reasonable man, and he made very straight forward points that anyone can understand.

If Noah's arc was real, why are kangeroos only found in Australia? How did they get there from the middle east and why has no one found their fossils of their journey from the mid east to Australia?

Is it reasonable to believe that only 8 people can build the biggest wooden boat in history when even expert shipwrights much later in history couldn't build one that didn't bend and break out in the ocean?

How do you get 16 million species from only 4000-7000 that were around during Noah's ark? Someone would have noticed 11 new species per day.

Surely, there are creationists reflecting on those questions, and being forced to reassess their beliefs.

The best sounding scientific rebuttal against an entire earth flood ive heard is: friction. least Im pretty sure it was the friction. Apparrently that much water would create enough friction and force to turn the earth into a formless rock incapable of sustaining human life. Tho, I guess if a person believes that God could turn off the laws of physics then that problem could be ignored.

As for the size of the ark, perhaps God placed a spell on it so that its bigger on the inside than the outside demensions of the boat. It worked in harry potter. They had all kinds of little cars and tents that could hold a ton of stuff.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

And thanks to this debate, he can now pay to build the "museum" where they can see it happen...

oh lord

this is going to be a very rough year... Noah looks fantastic (as a film) but... between it and the new Jesus movie coming out... it's going to be an incredibly rough year...

im all for people believing what they want.. and most Christians arn't "crazy" but these kinds of debates as well as films do seem to harkin them out of the wood-work

 

[Slushy]

What I want is to know why you refuse to even discuss it? Is your faith so fragile that it cant weather a discussion.

Because its a waste of time. Hypothetically, I could go on and on for hours on end and you'll just stick to your guns anyway and name call me / put me down for not being "logical". What was the point?

Personally, im not here to disprove you. Why people believe what they believe does interest me. You have every right to believe what you believe. You even have a right to come in here and call your idea superior, but this is a discussion forum. If you make a statement such as "Im right. You're wrong." Its going to bring up questions. I just want to know why you refuse to discuss your claim, and your reasons for ignoring verifiable evidence. You dont have to tell me. Im just curious is all. Something obviously set you own this path. Did you witness a miracle? Did god speak to you? Were you in a bad way and you felt a helping hand? Were you raised into it? Etc. These are not mesnt as sarcastiv questions. Im just asking for some reason for your faith. Some context of you. So I can understand you. That is all Im asking for.

I was raised Catholic.

I do not take the Bible at face value.

My own personal experience. I used to take the bus home from school. One of my classmates lived across a busy street and one day, I got her attention to tell her something before she was about to cross and right there and then, a car accident happened. Had I not done yet, she would've been killed.

The coincidence of meeting you care about that you haven't seen in a long time at the most random place.

Miracles happening like the Nigerian being rescued underwater or people surviving accidents that would've normally killed a person.

The story of the woman who had a near death experience and saw a shoe on the roof of the hospital as she was floating up. When she came back to her body, she told the doctor about the shoe and when they went up there, they found it.

The story of the abusive husband who had a heart attack who went to Hell briefly and was attacked by demons during his near death experience.

Colton Burpo's story if it is true.

Several accounts in video, audio, and photos of an afterlife.

A majority of people, even some atheists, believing there is a Hell.




I'm sure there's more, but all of the above are why I believe what I believe and I will not stray from the path no matter how much science you want to throw at me.

 

[jmc]

Extraordinary accounts of survival happen all the time. That doesn't really mean anything other than it being luck.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

Extraordinary accounts of survival happen all the time. That doesn't really mean anything other than it being luck.

That's what I was thinking, although his post is a bit unclear. There were a few words missing(I'm assuming) which made it a little hard to read.

But I'm assuming he believes what he believes because of miracles he's seen. But what about the opposite. The genocides. Especially the one's God asked for and the one's committed in his name. What about the naked man who ate someone's face off and other random horrible acts that have nothing to do with religion?

 

[moviedoors]

I will not stray from the path no matter how much science you want to throw at me.

An admission of having a closed mind.

 

[moviedoors]

Extraordinary accounts of survival happen all the time. That doesn't really mean anything other than it being luck.

Yeah, they're not "miracles." A miracle would be regrowing a limb, something we know to be impossible, not just unlikely.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

Yeah, they're not "miracles." A miracle would be regrowing a limb, something we know to be impossible, not just unlikely.

Edit, quoted wrong poster.

 

[jmc]

I want to know what religious people fear in exploring the evidence? Seriously. The wrath of god?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I want to know what religious people fear in exploring the evidence? Seriously. The wrath of god?

they fear it being wrong.

people tend to fear questioning what they know. I imagine maybe it's an extreme version of that moment in life when you start becoming an adult, and look back at your parents and other adults you always thought "new everything and had all the answers" but you realize they've just been winging it this whole time, and it's all there first rodeo too.

I imagine it's something of that effect, but much more of a shock. Which is so odd to me, because i'd think testing one's faith is a great way to make it stronger.

one thing i've noticed is the extremely conservative religious right has become much more outspoken and almost desperate in recent years... as gay rights is going forward, and the US as a nation is becoming much more of a melting pot, much more culturally aware and much more integrated.

the Christian power is dwindling as more cultures come in. There word is no longer "THE WORD" but just "ANOTHER WORD" another perspective and another point of view. The extreme religious right seems to be not handling that concept very well...

In all honesty, this notion that the world is only 6000 years old... i had never heard of up until the last decade. It's a pretty new concept is it not for Christianity isnt it? Not creationism, but the whole Dinos and Man living together in harmony, and the world is only 6000 years old?

honestly that notion just sounds like wishful thinking to those who grew up watching the Flintstones... it's almost really bad fan-fiction

 

[Hal_Jordan]

people tend to fear questioning what they know. I imagine maybe it's an extreme version of that moment in life when you start becoming an adult, and look back at your parents and other adults you always thought "new everything and had all the answers" but you realize they've just been winging it this whole time, and it's all there first rodeo too.

I imagine it's something of that effect, but much more of a shock. Which is so odd to me, because i'd think testing one's faith is a great way to make it stronger.

The problem arises when testing one's faith becomes, "if I believe this contradicts what I believe, I'm going to hell for eternity if I'm wrong," fear mongering.

Fear(in all of it's forms) is the driving force behind a lot of it.

 

[Hotwire]

Why do evolution and creation have be mutually exclusive? Couldn't evolution have been created? Instead of God having created everything as it currently exists, couldn't he have created the system that has ultimately created everything else? Sort of a God created evolution idea. This seems like a fair compromise to me.

 

[jmc]

The problem arises when testing one's faith becomes, ''if I believe this contradicts what I believe, I'm going to hell for eternity if I'm wrong,'' fear mongering.

Fear(in all of it's forms) is the driving force behind a lot of it.

Why would a god punish someone for asking questions or looking for answers? Science has debunked a lot of what was once the domain of religion, many of whom where religious people who made the discoveries. Darwin himself had trouble coming to terms with his findings due to it contradicting his upbringing.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

Why do evolution and creation have be mutually exclusive? Couldn't evolution have been created? Instead of God having created everything as it currently exists, couldn't he have created the system that has ultimately created everything else? Sort of a God created evolution idea. This seems like a fair compromise to me.

Creationism and evolution can not co-exist. You can't have both, they contradict.

Evolution does not prove that there is no God.

I think that's a problem a lot of people are having with evolution. They automatically assume it contradicts the bible, so they don't even listen to the evidence.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

The problem arises when testing one's faith becomes, "if I believe this contradicts what I believe, I'm going to hell for eternity if I'm wrong," fear mongering.

Fear(in all of it's forms) is the driving force behind a lot of it.

certainly, and there's many who (while there's no biblical evidence of it) have that mentality that if we all don't follow or believe their faith, the whole world will burn. (which, isn't accurate because Christian's who believe on this level of creationism are the same ones who believe in that whole left behind Kirk Cameron hogwash. So they wont be affected by any of this lol

 

[jmc]

Why do evolution and creation have be mutually exclusive? Couldn't evolution have been created? Instead of God having created everything as it currently exists, couldn't he have created the system that has ultimately created everything else? Sort of a God created evolution idea. This seems like a fair compromise to me.

A compromise with no evidence to support it. You may as well suggest the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Batman could of created it.

 

[Marvolo]

Because its a waste of time. Hypothetically, I could go on and on for hours on end and you'll just stick to your guns anyway and name call me / put me down for not being "logical". What was the point?

I was raised Catholic.

I do not the Bible at face value.

My own personal experience. I used to take the bus home from school. One of my classmates lived across a busy street and one day, I got her attention to tell her something before she was about to cross and right there and then, a car accident happened. Had I not done yet, she would've been killed.

The coincidence of meeting you care about that you haven't seen in a long time at the most random place.

Miracles happening like the Nigerian being rescued underwater or people surviving accidents that would've normally killed a person.

The story of the woman who had a near death experience and saw a shoe on the roof of the hospital as she was floating up. When she came back to her body, she told the doctor about the shoe and when they went up there, they found it.

The story of the abusive husband who had a heart attack who went to Hell briefly and was attacked by demons during his near death experience.

Colton Burpo's story if it is true.

Several accounts in video, audio, and photo of an afterlife.

A majority of people, even some atheists, believing there is a Hell.




I'm sure there's more, but all of the above are why I believe what I believe and I will not stray from the path no matter how much science you want to throw at me.

While I believe there are perfectly natural explanations for all those things, I wont argue the point. You believe those are miracles, and I wont try to take that from you. We all need to believe in something. Thank you for writing this up.

 

[Hotwire]

Creationism and evolution can not co-exist. You can't have both, they contradict.

Again, couldn't evolution have been created? Like I said, it's a compromise. Both sides agreeing that their origin stories are a little off but, ultimately, they're both right.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Why do evolution and creation have be mutually exclusive? Couldn't evolution have been created? Instead of God having created everything as it currently exists, couldn't he have created the system that has ultimately created everything else? Sort of a God created evolution idea. This seems like a fair compromise to me.

That's what Bill touched on.. there's plenty of Christians who arn't this (pardon the word, but crazy) and think Evolution and the Big Bang can easily coincide with there beliefs... ex God created the big bang, God created evolution...

most of the christians ive met don't actually take the fables to heart as truth. They don't believe Jonah really got swallowed by a whale and lived, they don't believe Goliath was a giant, they don't believe the entire world flooded.. they think they're great stories and metaphors. They could have some truth, but they realize many are quite embellished upon. Like most ancient stories.

you can certainly be a scientist and still be a christian. but it's incredibly hard to be a young earth creationist and a scientist.. because it specifically goes against what science is really about.

 

[jmc]

Again, couldn't evolution have been created? Like I said, it's a compromise. Both sides agreeing that their origin stories are a little off but, ultimately, they're both right.

Why would an all powerful being create evolution?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Creationism and evolution can not co-exist. You can't have both, they contradict.

Evolution does not prove that there is no God.

I think that's a problem a lot of people are having with evolution. They automatically assume it contradicts the bible, so they don't even listen to the evidence.

yeah, evolution doesn't necessarily rule out the biblical teachings at all.. the bible doesn't say anything on the subject just says god created man in his image... that doesn't mean we knew what that image was at the time lol

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Why would an all powerful being create evolution?

why not? they believe he just randomly decided to one day create the cosmos and life, why couldn't he create the ability to adapt? I mean... Christians never seem to think of what came before the universe... where god is from, and what came before the universe was created.

was he sitting in a big white room staring into an abyss? does he have family? what created god?

it's an infinite loop of questions no one has the answers too.. and we never will.. we will never know what came before our universe was created... be it big bang or divine intervention.