Kilmer's Wayne versus Bale's Wayne

[Optimus_Prime_]

Ya know what, I think Kilmer was the best Bruce Wayne. He was confident, competent CEO. He played the role slightly awkward and was definitely torn between his image and his duty to be a hero.

 

[Godzilla2014]

For me, Christian Bale is the better Wayne. He is the Bruce Wayne I remember from the comics.

 

[Spoonman]

Kilmer is what I imagine Wayne would look like, I respect Bale's effort and performance but there is something in his appearence that doesn't quite convince me, I also liked Kilmer's version of Wayne better because he played the socialite and public figure without overdoing it like Bale, I really don't care if Bale's reasons are justified or whatever (distracting from his Batman persona ans such) but I never imagined Wayne from the comics acting like that, not generally at least.

 

[Cain]

As a fan of the comic books above all other media Kilmer still remains my favorite Wayne of all the modern films. With West being my favorite Wayne of all time. Kilmer was the only one that reminded me of the comic book Wayne. Handsome and sympathetic yet also naive and with a small sense of aloofness.

It was the public Bruce Wayne character to a tee. Then his private Bruce Wayne also incorporated the right amount of seriousness yet charitable demeanor as the comics. I think o be honest that only Batman Forever and the animated series where the only ones to truly get it right.

As much as I enjoyed Keaton's Wayne as well as Bale's they were far too different many times to ever remind me of any comic book Bruce at least in the way Kilmer did. They had traces here and there but were pretty much their own unique inventions in many other ways. Matter of fact Bale's when it comes to comic book characters specifically reminded me more of Tony Stark just a couple of years before Iron Man eventually got his own movie.

 

[Brother Jack]

Bale, easily. Kilmer wasn't terrible, he certainly looked the part, but I found him really uninteresting. It was like he was sleepwalking, like he didn't want to be there, which I understand he didn't.

 

[The Joker]

Bale's Wayne was much better. But Kilmer's Wayne was very good, especially in the scenes with Chase and Dick.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I'm going with Kilmer's Wayne, it was perfect, I think the problems with it came from the script and Schumacher's direction, but as far as Kilmer himself, he nailed it. An above poster summed it up for me. I think Bale had a lot more to work with, so he ultimately got to work with more of a range of emotion, but Kilmer simply played the role better. I think had Kilmer worked with someone like Nolan there'd be no debate, he'd blow Bale out of the water. This is not to diminish Bale as an actor, but there is simply something in the way Kilmer looked and carried himself, spoke and the confidence he exuded that just hasn't been replicated. That said, Kilmer came off very silly as Batman, I could never take him seriously. He was just an okay Batman, I give Bale an overwhelming edge over him there.

When the dialogue calmed down for brief spurts in Batman Forever you really got a sense Kilmer could play a solid Wayne. The scene where Nygma presents his idea to Bruce, and Bruce rejects it, that was perfect Bruce. When he was deducing the riddles, or talking to Dick Grayson in the cave/garage, those were very good scenes. When he attended social functions I thought he handled the role very well. The dialogue definitely was schizophrenic though, and there are many scenes that are just painful, most of them occurred while Kilmer was wearing the Bat-costume though.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I still think Bale's Wayne wins this one... granted Kilmer was never given much to do as Wayne and what he did have was cut down.

Kilmer almost drowns in that movie with some of its bad decisions... but still comes out of it looking good.

A fine Bruce Wayne, but not better than Bale's

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I still think Bale's Wayne wins this one... granted Kilmer was never given much to do as Wayne and what he did have was cut down.

Kilmer almost drowns in that movie with some of its bad decisions... but still comes out of it looking good.

A fine Bruce Wayne, but not better than Bale's

Bale's whole obnoxious playboy routine was ripped straight out of Batman: Year One by Frank Miller. If there's anyone who, in my opinion, doesn't understand Batman: it's Frank Miller. I always felt like the way BTAS, Batman Forever and many of the comics played him was much better. They portrayed him as a competent, socially active, yet somewhat niave and good natured individual. Good CEOs, the ones that DON'T act like Paris Hilton tend to get less attention than the attention ****ing Donald Trump's of the world. Frank Miller, the same dude who couldn't help but make Selina Kyle a bitter prostitute (Gee Frank, you've never done that before ), had to make Bruce Wayne an obnoxious prick. Actually he just made Batman an obnoxious prick altogether. I don't really care for the justification either, I just think Frank Miller can't write a character that isn't on drugs, an obnoxious prick or a sex addict. Bruce Wayne may have some [pretend] flaws, he's still supposed to be a respectible individual IMO. I'll give The Dark Knight some credit for dialing back the pretend antics of Bruce Wayne, but I still feel like they made him too immature. Frank Miller is never my go to guy on Batman.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Bale. Kilmer sold a depressed, tarnished guy well to his credit, but he was too depressed, too down, too quiet, too delicate, too much moping around

 

[truth]

Keaton?

Kilmer was too stale.

Bale over-did it, but was still very good in Begins.

 

[The Morningstar]

Kilmer for me. His scenes with Dick, especially his argument with him in the Bat cave, are brilliant. For what he had to work with, he was eceptional. Imagine what he could have done with a better script?

Bale? He over cooks his Batman with that atrocious voice and I think his Bruce Wayne is a *****e, more than anything. Not entirely his fault though. The insanely exposition heavy dialogue in the script didn't help matters.

"These people... are ready to show... that they believe in GOOOOOOOOOOD!"

Seriously? I'm not a ******, you don't need to spoon feed me that blatantly obvious theme, thank you very much.

 

[theman]

keaton is still my favorite bruce wayne. but since this is about kilmer and bale, kilmer hands down. the movie had him as a cool batman and as a good tormented yet successful playboy.

 

[truth]

If this is between these two...it's really difficult.

I would have to say, Bale in Begins but in Tdk, Kilmer easily.
If Kilmer had a better script, I would like to see what he would have achieved.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Kilmer acted uncomfortable, awkward and unsure of himself. Bale showed both the serious, confident determination of the private Bruce and the playboy routine of the public Bruce Wayne.

Bale's whole obnoxious playboy routine was ripped straight out of Batman: Year One by Frank Miller. If there's anyone who, in my opinion, doesn't understand Batman: it's Frank Miller. I always felt like the way BTAS, Batman Forever and many of the comics played him was much better. They portrayed him as a competent, socially active, yet somewhat niave and good natured individual. Good CEOs, the ones that DON'T act like Paris Hilton tend to get less attention than the attention ****ing Donald Trump's of the world. Frank Miller, the same dude who couldn't help but make Selina Kyle a bitter prostitute (Gee Frank, you've never done that before ), had to make Bruce Wayne an obnoxious prick. Actually he just made Batman an obnoxious prick altogether. I don't really care for the justification either, I just think Frank Miller can't write a character that isn't on drugs, an obnoxious prick or a sex addict. Bruce Wayne may have some [pretend] flaws, he's still supposed to be a respectible individual IMO. I'll give The Dark Knight some credit for dialing back the pretend antics of Bruce Wayne, but I still feel like they made him too immature. Frank Miller is never my go to guy on Batman.

Bruce Wayne's obnoxious playboy routine goes back to the original Batman comics by Batman creators Bill Finger and Bob Kane.

It's not something Frank Miller created. Frank Miller was actually going back to Bruce Wayne as Bill Finger and Bob Kane created the character.
Selina Kyle was a Dominatrix in Batman: Year One, not a bitter sex addict. We see in silhouette her holding a whip as a man says "Selina...please don't stop now." And we witness Selina being verbally-abusive and emasculating him, telling him that she hates men and she's never met a man. And the man, obviously a masochist getting off on this, and asks her to say it again. Selina also has a butch buzz cut and is decked out in a stereotypical S&M wardrobe and handcuffs. Catwoman always seemed like a Dominatrix with a whip (which Catwoman first appeared with way back in 1946), Frank Miller naturally expanded upon this. She was a woman who gets paid by men to whip them. Professional dominants do not engage in any form of sexual contact with their paying customers. She's fully clothed and seen holding a whip. She was a Dominatrix. Men seeking a Dominatrix are not seeking sex. But to satisfy there masochistic fetish to be dominated, bound and whipped and degraded. Later inspired by Batman's Bat-costumed vigilantism, and seeking new thrills, she buys a Cat-costume and becomes Catwoman, a jewel thief (as Catwoman was in the Finger and Kane stories). She steals corrupt Commissioner Loeb's collection of pop memorabilia valued at forty thousand dollars and it was funny - she though he'd have jewels - not just old Disney and Charles Schulz cartoon stuff.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

In the scans you posted he's a far cry from Frank Millers interpretation of him as an obnoxious prick, who hangs around with loose women whose name he doesn't know. Then makes an a$$ out of himself in front of Gordon, which is something Bill Finger NEVER depicted Bruce as doing. Those panels are far closer to the earnest, polite, yet socially active playboy depicted in BTAS and Batman Forever than the over-the-top *****e we get with Frank Miller and Batman Begins.

 

[The Morningstar]

I disagree that Kilmer's Wayne was unsure of himself. The way he gave Nygma a dressing down in the lab was brilliant. He chewed Nygma out like a Drill Sargeant, but did it in a sophisticated, well mannered way. Also at Nygma's party thing, I liked how he basically interrogated him right there in front of everyone and highlighted the moral flaws in the whole brain wave deal.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Selina Kyle was a Dominatrix in Batman: Year One, not a bitter sex addict.

No, she was a prostitute, don't sit there and pretend that wasn't where Frank Miller was going with that. She accepted money in exchange for sex, that would be a prostitute. Dominatrix is a sexual act at it's core too. Moreover it's still f***ing stupid, whatever he was expanding upon. If you look at Catwoman and can't think of anything to write about her but sexual fetishes, then there is something wrong with you.

Also, I never said "sex addict" I said hooker. She was a hooker in both "Year One" and TDKR.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I disagree that Kilmer's Wayne was unsure of himself. The way he gave Nygma a dressing down in the lab was brilliant. He chewed Nygma out like a Drill Sargeant, but did it in a sophisticated, well mannered way. Also at Nygma's party thing, I liked how he basically interrogated him right there in front of everyone and highlighted the moral flaws in the whole brain wave deal.

Yeah, and they didn't abandon the "playboy" aspect of him either: "I need to get you out of those clothes...(what?)...and into a black dress, tell me Dr. Meridian, do you like the Circus?". That's actually far closer to the scans posted above than what Miller or Nolan did with the character. It's one thing to be a playboy, and take advantage of the "opportunities" you get from being rich. With Bob Kane and Bill Finger that is what was demostrated above; a confident, yet somewhat aloof and flakey socialite.

 

[Cain]

In the scans you posted he's a far cry from Frank Millers interpretation of him as an obnoxious prick, who hangs around with loose women whose name he doesn't know. Then makes an a$$ out of himself in front of Gordon, which is something Bill Finger NEVER depicted Bruce as doing. Those panels are far closer to the earnest, polite, yet socially active playboy depicted in BTAS and Batman Forever than the over-the-top *****e we get with Frank Miller and Batman Begins.

Also the version that we've seen stick in the comics all throughout the rest of the 40's and the 50's to this very day. Most especially evident for those of you who enjoy the most popular versions; in the Adams/O'Neill, Englehart/Rogers and Grant/Breyfogle runs. I miss THAT Bruce Wayne to TDK's credit they kinda tried to go that route at least a lot more than BB (which like you also turned me off as a fan). Still not quite there yet.

 

[theMan-Bat]

In the scans you posted he's a far cry from Frank Millers interpretation of him as an obnoxious prick, who hangs around with loose women whose name he doesn't know. Then makes an a$$ out of himself in front of Gordon, which is something Bill Finger NEVER depicted Bruce as doing. Those panels are far closer to the earnest, polite, yet socially active playboy depicted in BTAS and Batman Forever than the over-the-top *****e we get with Frank Miller and Batman Begins.

No, Bill Finger's Bruce Wayne acted like an obnoxious and pretentious pleasure-loving playboy who hangs around with women and has an over-the-top aversion to work. In Detective Comics #49 (1940), Bruce says to Julie Madison, "Sorry, honey, I'm having too good a time to be bothered with anything remotely connected with work!" And when she breaks up with him he acts like he doesn't care, replying, "It's alright." In Batman #5 (1941), when he bumps into, literally, Linda Page, she tells Bruce that there are more important things than cafe society life, so she's become a nurse. Bruce obnoxiously responds condescendingly, "A nurse? You gave up a place in high society to work for a living? It's--It's stupid!" Linda Page responds, "You're the one who's stupid--Wasting your life as the great society playboy." Bruce remarks, "Ah-ah! Don't try to reform me. I'm having too good a time to kill myself with work!"

Bruce Wayne continued to adopt the role of the pleasure-loving playboy with an aversion to work. In Batman #20 (1944), Bruce Wayne temporarily loses custody of Dick Grayson in a court battle with George Grayson because of Wayne's reputation as a playboy.
He's terrible at taking care of Wayne Enterprises. He has hosts of accountants, et cetera, and Lucius Fox, that do most of that work for him because he keeps neglecting it.
Bruce didn't even know where his office was located when he visits the WayneCorp building in Batman #541 (1997) and the receptionist didn't even know who he was. He only showed up there because his date, Vesper Farchild, arranged to meet him there.

Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli's Batman: Year One is considered the greatest Batman story in comics by most people, and is certainly one of the most popular.
In the Batman: The Animated Series episode "Nothing to Fear" (1992), Doctor Long says to Bruce, "Your father and I attended the University together, he had big plans for you." Bruce replies, "Well, I guess he'd be pleased, Wayne Industries is more profitable than ever." Doctor Long angrily snaps back, "Pleased?! When your father was alive, Wayne was a name that commanded great respect. Now all Wayne stands for is a self-centered, jet-setting playboy. It's lucky your father didn't live to see what you've done to his good name. He'd of died of shame."

No, she was a prostitute, don't sit there and pretend that wasn't where Frank Miller was going with that. She accepted money in exchange for sex, that would be a prostitute. Dominatrix is a sexual act at it's core too. Moreover it's still f***ing stupid, whatever he was expanding upon. If you look at Catwoman and can't think of anything to write about her but sexual fetishes, then there is something wrong with you.

No, Selina Kyle was a Dominatrix in Batman: Year One before she became Catwoman. She didn't accept money in exchange for sex. Professional dominants do not engage in sexual contact with their paying customers. She's fully clothed and seen holding a whip. She was a Dominatrix. Men seeking a Dominatrix are not seeking sex. But to satisfy there masochistic fetish to be dominated, bound and whipped and degraded. Frank Miller obviously didn't just write her as a Dominatrix, she soon changed her line of work and became Catwoman in Batman: Year One.

Also, I never said "sex addict" I said hooker.

No, you also said "sex addict." And I quote, "I just think Frank Miller can't write a character that isn't on drugs, an obnoxious prick or a sex addict."

She was a hooker in both "Year One" and TDKR.

She was a Dominatrix in Batman: Year One before she became Catwoman and she was a madam running Kyle Escort Service, Inc. in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns.

I disagree that Kilmer's Wayne was unsure of himself.

Val Kilmer's Bruce acted uncomfortable, awkward and unsure of himself with Chase Meridian. Kilmer's Bruce also acted unsure of himself with Alfred, he said "I killed them." Alfred replied, "What did you say?" Kilmer's Bruce says, "He killed them. Two-Face. He slaughtered that boy's parents." Alfred responds, "No. You said I. I killed them."

The way he gave Nygma a dressing down in the lab was brilliant. He chewed Nygma out like a Drill Sargeant, but did it in a sophisticated, well mannered way.

Val Kilmer's Bruce said politely, in a soft spoken voice, "I'm sorry, Ed, then the answers no. Tampering with people's brainwaves, mind manipulation, it just raises too many questions." That isn't chewing Jim Carrey's Edward Nygma out like a Drill Sargeant.

Also at Nygma's party thing, I liked how he basically interrogated him right there in front of everyone and highlighted the moral flaws in the whole brain wave deal.

Val Kilmer's Bruce acted like a professor publicly in that scene and said politely, "Hello, Edward, congratulations. Great party. Nice suit. Fully interactive holograms. Only a high frequency carrier wave beamed directly into the brain could create such imagery. Edward, if you can introduce images into the mind, what prevents you from extracting images out of the mind?" That's softball questioning. The moral flaws of the whole mind manipulation gimmick was obvious from the start. Acting like an admirable professor publicly is a racial departure from the playboy routine.

 

[marvelrobbins]

I am glad someone else can get In Year One Selina Kyle was a Dominatrix and not hooker.many In decrying how Miller wrote her In year One Ignore this.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Yes, she was a dominatrix, but Miller was hinting at the hooker angle.

As to the topic, I more or less agree with Cain.

 

[Agent 194]

As a fan of the comic books above all other media Kilmer still remains my favorite Wayne of all the modern films. With West being my favorite Wayne of all time. Kilmer was the only one that reminded me of the comic book Wayne. Handsome and sympathetic yet also naive and with a small sense of aloofness. movie.

Now this is an interesting thread topic. I always thought Kilmer was my favorite of the screen Batmans and Bruce Waynes. And interesting to hear someone say unashamedl, and unafraid that Adam West was their all time fav Bruce Wayne. Mine too. Met Adam West twice. He moved talked and acted like the part.

 

[X-Woman]

For me the ideal Batman/Bruce would be Val Kilmer but with Adam West's voice.

Now that's perfection.