Darthphere
Kneel before 'Drox!
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By the way Rod, its spelled "because" as a writer, you should know that.
K
kissmecomix
Guest
Lackey,
I'm born and bred in the U.S.A, however, I've had the pleasure to go outside this country and see what's outside the borders. I got to experience what is on the other side away from the propaganda the government spits out to keep the masses content.
as far as the misspellings, I have a lot to say with long thoughts, my hands don't always move fast enough. As far getting a good laugh, once again I ask why don't you comment about Serenade? Why do you take on parts and say it is the whole?
We take what we do seriously, for us this is no joke, no hobby! We work hard to do what we do, and we are a work in progress. What books has anybody that has commented done? Do any of you read any independent books besides those distributed by Diamond? There's a whole another world in comics as in life. I recommend you try both and experience something beyond your own borders.
As far as professionalism is concerned, if you want to criticize it can be done professionally, and from what I see from the commentary here, there wasn't any professionalism on any level.
Normally I would keep things above the table, but seeing how biased and hypocritical this thread has been, professionalism is not warranted. I have seen worse art that has been on the bookshelves distributed by Diamond, and was selling so, before you call someone a joke, look at what else at your local shop.
If you wish to continue to Bash us sight unseen, that is certainly your God given, right living America. Remember that the same can be done unto you as well.
I'm born and bred in the U.S.A, however, I've had the pleasure to go outside this country and see what's outside the borders. I got to experience what is on the other side away from the propaganda the government spits out to keep the masses content.
as far as the misspellings, I have a lot to say with long thoughts, my hands don't always move fast enough. As far getting a good laugh, once again I ask why don't you comment about Serenade? Why do you take on parts and say it is the whole?
We take what we do seriously, for us this is no joke, no hobby! We work hard to do what we do, and we are a work in progress. What books has anybody that has commented done? Do any of you read any independent books besides those distributed by Diamond? There's a whole another world in comics as in life. I recommend you try both and experience something beyond your own borders.
As far as professionalism is concerned, if you want to criticize it can be done professionally, and from what I see from the commentary here, there wasn't any professionalism on any level.
Normally I would keep things above the table, but seeing how biased and hypocritical this thread has been, professionalism is not warranted. I have seen worse art that has been on the bookshelves distributed by Diamond, and was selling so, before you call someone a joke, look at what else at your local shop.
If you wish to continue to Bash us sight unseen, that is certainly your God given, right living America. Remember that the same can be done unto you as well.
Elijya
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This is an online forum, where all fans - be they sympathetic, critical, abrasive, nice, mean, whatever - are free to express their opinions within a reasonable degree of civility, which people in this thread have. This forum is not a business, "professionalism" is not a requirement. In a way, an open forum like this will give you HONEST opinions from an array of different people, instead of someone "professionally" assessing your work and softening the blow of the truth, putting negatives in a strictly positive light. "You need a lot of work on this" is a nice, "professional" way of saying "this is terrible", really.
We have a fan art forum that's typicly dedicated to constructive criticism, if you would like, I can move the thread there - although I can tell you ahead of time, you'll hear the exact same comments: the artwork in your books, all of them, is terrible. And it's got nothing to do with being "different", or if art is subjective, or whether or not there is computer colors, or whether it's distributed by Diamond, or one of the "Big 4". Your books, all of them, are simply terrible and look like they were produced by 3rd graders. There is no malice in this assessment, I'm not attempting to be cruel, I'm being completely honest. To any rational person, they see this level of quality all the time - when their children bring it home from art class.
While I will grant you that the art in Serenade - which I don't believe was there when this thread was initially started - is a level above the rest, it is still not up to professional level. ANY of your artists, if they dedicate themselves to improvement, have the potential to be better. But none of them are anywhere close to someone else hiring them.
We have a fan art forum that's typicly dedicated to constructive criticism, if you would like, I can move the thread there - although I can tell you ahead of time, you'll hear the exact same comments: the artwork in your books, all of them, is terrible. And it's got nothing to do with being "different", or if art is subjective, or whether or not there is computer colors, or whether it's distributed by Diamond, or one of the "Big 4". Your books, all of them, are simply terrible and look like they were produced by 3rd graders. There is no malice in this assessment, I'm not attempting to be cruel, I'm being completely honest. To any rational person, they see this level of quality all the time - when their children bring it home from art class.
While I will grant you that the art in Serenade - which I don't believe was there when this thread was initially started - is a level above the rest, it is still not up to professional level. ANY of your artists, if they dedicate themselves to improvement, have the potential to be better. But none of them are anywhere close to someone else hiring them.
IRON_Lad
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kissmecomix said:
name me one artist thats getting published by the "Big Four" thats worse than this. I mean really, do you have a sweat shop full of kids that draw your comics?
http://pages.prodigy.net/kiss-me-comics/IMAGES/lynxpic.jpg
Mrh7448
I am not a Side Kick
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Rod:
While applaude your drive to produce your comics I find it very hard to believe that you don't realize how bad the art is. While granted Serenade is of better quality it is still nowhere near professional level. Judging from what is shown on your site a good number of it is probably referenced to other artwork (which is not necessarily a bad thing but not necessarily a good thing either) The rest is, well, to be perfectly blunt bad. I understand that Lynx is produced by a teen, but there is still much room for improvement and that will come with continued practice and time.
The colouring is as bad as anything else. It's flat watercolour washes which aren't even done well. Look at guys like Alex Ross, John J. Muth and Kent Williams who all produce colours in the traditional sense and are very successful. Not to mention a lot of the European Artists such as Simon Bisley and Dermott Power.
I like Mignola and Miller for their graphic quality of art, the sharp contrast. I don't like the likes of Jim Lee or Todd McFarlane, Greg Capullo etc. Alex Ross while his work is technically very sound lacks any sort of movement in his books. All artists have something they can work and they are never happy with what they produce. The number of times I've redone images over and over again.
Your books, while I can only judge the stories by the synopsis' you post on your site, however, they do sound very stereotypical of the comic book genre. Typical heroes in tights saving the world type scenarios. You claim that they are different but they all sound very cliched to me. Stories of world domination, vengeance and great evil. Not that there is anything wrong with this kind of thing but be truthful to what it is.
So my suggestion is this you need to work on the art, for all of them, either get an actual artist to work with you or go and take some or more art classes. Don't get too defensive about what people say on here, there will always be naysayers obviously you and the people you work with have certain drive which will help with success. If you're making money from it than that's all the better, but you need to realize your strengths and weaknesses and right now the weakness is in the artwork. It's not a matter of style, bad art is bad art, not to be mean.
While applaude your drive to produce your comics I find it very hard to believe that you don't realize how bad the art is. While granted Serenade is of better quality it is still nowhere near professional level. Judging from what is shown on your site a good number of it is probably referenced to other artwork (which is not necessarily a bad thing but not necessarily a good thing either) The rest is, well, to be perfectly blunt bad. I understand that Lynx is produced by a teen, but there is still much room for improvement and that will come with continued practice and time.
The colouring is as bad as anything else. It's flat watercolour washes which aren't even done well. Look at guys like Alex Ross, John J. Muth and Kent Williams who all produce colours in the traditional sense and are very successful. Not to mention a lot of the European Artists such as Simon Bisley and Dermott Power.
I like Mignola and Miller for their graphic quality of art, the sharp contrast. I don't like the likes of Jim Lee or Todd McFarlane, Greg Capullo etc. Alex Ross while his work is technically very sound lacks any sort of movement in his books. All artists have something they can work and they are never happy with what they produce. The number of times I've redone images over and over again.
Your books, while I can only judge the stories by the synopsis' you post on your site, however, they do sound very stereotypical of the comic book genre. Typical heroes in tights saving the world type scenarios. You claim that they are different but they all sound very cliched to me. Stories of world domination, vengeance and great evil. Not that there is anything wrong with this kind of thing but be truthful to what it is.
So my suggestion is this you need to work on the art, for all of them, either get an actual artist to work with you or go and take some or more art classes. Don't get too defensive about what people say on here, there will always be naysayers obviously you and the people you work with have certain drive which will help with success. If you're making money from it than that's all the better, but you need to realize your strengths and weaknesses and right now the weakness is in the artwork. It's not a matter of style, bad art is bad art, not to be mean.
K
kissmecomix
Guest
by whose level of professionalism do you require? Does it require a stamp of approval going through Marvel or DC.
We ask top pros fat which ever con we go to and if the work is as bad as you say then they would have told us right then and there. We aren't like everyone else nor do wish to be. Just because a paid commentary says they're good doesn't make it so.
KMC is not for everyone all we ask is that whatever your dislike is sait, but do not degrade anyone or anybody who thinks otherwise, one man's trash is anothers treasure. I regret that I swallowed the bait here you, have made your point. We will continue doing our work,pleasing those who it pleases.
You do not have to move this spot, for it would do us no good and it would further prolong the unecessary narrow views.
And once again I have to state we always said we are a work in progress, and will continue to be. Upon that I adjourn from the discussion. We will always have an open invite to actually read one of our stories we aren't below giving a freebie now and then. Then say something.
We ask top pros fat which ever con we go to and if the work is as bad as you say then they would have told us right then and there. We aren't like everyone else nor do wish to be. Just because a paid commentary says they're good doesn't make it so.
KMC is not for everyone all we ask is that whatever your dislike is sait, but do not degrade anyone or anybody who thinks otherwise, one man's trash is anothers treasure. I regret that I swallowed the bait here you, have made your point. We will continue doing our work,pleasing those who it pleases.
You do not have to move this spot, for it would do us no good and it would further prolong the unecessary narrow views.
And once again I have to state we always said we are a work in progress, and will continue to be. Upon that I adjourn from the discussion. We will always have an open invite to actually read one of our stories we aren't below giving a freebie now and then. Then say something.
Mrh7448
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I am by no means saying that Marvel and DC are the values we should judge by. They have hired many bad artists themselves including Rob Liefeld, Todd Mcfarlane and others. Marvel and DC have had their share of bad artists drawing for them as well.
I am not denigrating what you do. Like I say I applaude your drive, but the fact remains the artwork does leave a lot to be desired IMO. The anatomy is weak, the compositions are weak and from the pages I have seen online the storytelling is weak. This is not to say that it won't get better in the future or that you should stop producing if it's something you love, like I say if you are making money good for you. It's working for you but your artwork still needs to work and progress. I have made crits on some of the things that need work. I understand that it is a work in progress but it still doesn't come towards anything that would be generally published in even independent comics, it's not a matter of style. It is evident from the subject matter that you want to strive toward the mainstream look...that's my opinion and you can deny it all you want.
I am not meaning to be mean, but your work needs to progress. I am trying to give an honest in critique on things that could be worked on to make it better. By getting a more polished artist you might be able to sell more books. There is a lack of knowledge of anatomy, perspective, backgrounds and storytelling. I have found some samples of pages online, this is not something I'm blindly talking about.
Check out my website...www.showe-art.com I do know how to draw and it took me a long road to get there.
I am not denigrating what you do. Like I say I applaude your drive, but the fact remains the artwork does leave a lot to be desired IMO. The anatomy is weak, the compositions are weak and from the pages I have seen online the storytelling is weak. This is not to say that it won't get better in the future or that you should stop producing if it's something you love, like I say if you are making money good for you. It's working for you but your artwork still needs to work and progress. I have made crits on some of the things that need work. I understand that it is a work in progress but it still doesn't come towards anything that would be generally published in even independent comics, it's not a matter of style. It is evident from the subject matter that you want to strive toward the mainstream look...that's my opinion and you can deny it all you want.
I am not meaning to be mean, but your work needs to progress. I am trying to give an honest in critique on things that could be worked on to make it better. By getting a more polished artist you might be able to sell more books. There is a lack of knowledge of anatomy, perspective, backgrounds and storytelling. I have found some samples of pages online, this is not something I'm blindly talking about.
Check out my website...www.showe-art.com I do know how to draw and it took me a long road to get there.
Elijya
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fixed that link for you, Mrh
Rod - the KMC books were displayed here, and a group of people shared their opinions on the quality of the work. You can't discount them simply because they differ from your own opinion (which is highly biased, since they're your books) or sweep every dissenting voice under the rug under excuses like "it's not for everyone", "people are being hypocritical", "well what books have YOU produced?" These are just excuses, really, and while some may have merit, at a certain point, when you dismiss every opposing opinion, even the constructively critical ones, you enter into an area of, well, self-delusion
Rod - the KMC books were displayed here, and a group of people shared their opinions on the quality of the work. You can't discount them simply because they differ from your own opinion (which is highly biased, since they're your books) or sweep every dissenting voice under the rug under excuses like "it's not for everyone", "people are being hypocritical", "well what books have YOU produced?" These are just excuses, really, and while some may have merit, at a certain point, when you dismiss every opposing opinion, even the constructively critical ones, you enter into an area of, well, self-delusion
Elijya
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if you're serious about running a comics company, then you NEED to listen to opinions, especially the negative ones, and do what you can to improve the quality of the work your company produces. That's the only way your company will grow
Many comic artists can produce 2 comic pages a day - and they work on just those two pages ALL day, for hours and hours, to make them look as good as they do. 4 hours on just one page. Can you honestly comparing the quality of someone like Jim Lee, Bryan Hitch, Steve Dillon, Glenn Fabry, David Lloyd, Eduardo Risso, or Geoff Darrow, who can spend 8 hours drawing and erasing, over and over until an image is as close to perfect as it can be, to something like this which couldn't have taken the artist more than 5-10 minutes?
http://pages.prodigy.net/kiss-me-comics/IMAGES/lynxpic.jpg
Many comic artists can produce 2 comic pages a day - and they work on just those two pages ALL day, for hours and hours, to make them look as good as they do. 4 hours on just one page. Can you honestly comparing the quality of someone like Jim Lee, Bryan Hitch, Steve Dillon, Glenn Fabry, David Lloyd, Eduardo Risso, or Geoff Darrow, who can spend 8 hours drawing and erasing, over and over until an image is as close to perfect as it can be, to something like this which couldn't have taken the artist more than 5-10 minutes?
http://pages.prodigy.net/kiss-me-comics/IMAGES/lynxpic.jpg
doommachine
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This is just amazing.
There are just no words that can describe how completely stupid this guy is. Like, I feel this incredible urge to write a book on how everything he says is so utterly wrong, but I know there's obviously no point.
Our comics are "propoganda"? Different "style"? It's just so fantastic.
Did it ever occur to you that they make comic book movies because comics have the ability to translate really well to the big screen or because, oh I dunno, people LIKE them?
I really think the only word that can even begin to apply is one that's completely made up.
This thread is... scrumtrulescent.
There are just no words that can describe how completely stupid this guy is. Like, I feel this incredible urge to write a book on how everything he says is so utterly wrong, but I know there's obviously no point.
Our comics are "propoganda"? Different "style"? It's just so fantastic.
Did it ever occur to you that they make comic book movies because comics have the ability to translate really well to the big screen or because, oh I dunno, people LIKE them?
I really think the only word that can even begin to apply is one that's completely made up.
This thread is... scrumtrulescent.
K
kissmecomix
Guest
i see that the lot of you just see and don't read. Lynx is done by our then 12 yr old daughter. Just starting out and she applying what she like about Manga. How many of you read Manga? It is called being creative developing your style.
Anyhow, you all like who you like, and I like who I like Mack, Kirby, Perez Sr., Ramos just to name a few. Computer coloring has it's place, and is not the and all be all. besides, it'll never take the place of the human hand. and if there were no computers what then, the power goes off then what?
and if everythings is so right, then why are readership numbers faling? Why are they so desperate to find "the next new market" if all is right with the world? Why has Diamond become pretty much a closed shop. Everything on the racks looks and feels the same. Of course that look is what you like fine. What goes around comes around, and when this era finally techs itself out, The old way will be new again.
and you're right it is quite pointless to keep arguing. You guys are what Keeps them in business they can give you anything and you'll readily embrace it, that is what good marketing is all about.
And I have listened to various critcism from those who have reviewed our work, have any of you even read one of our reviews?
and when I get done with a book I go back and tear it apart. I'm never one to say my book is perfect, never will! But I'll check you guys later. I got work to do.
Anyhow, you all like who you like, and I like who I like Mack, Kirby, Perez Sr., Ramos just to name a few. Computer coloring has it's place, and is not the and all be all. besides, it'll never take the place of the human hand. and if there were no computers what then, the power goes off then what?
and if everythings is so right, then why are readership numbers faling? Why are they so desperate to find "the next new market" if all is right with the world? Why has Diamond become pretty much a closed shop. Everything on the racks looks and feels the same. Of course that look is what you like fine. What goes around comes around, and when this era finally techs itself out, The old way will be new again.
and you're right it is quite pointless to keep arguing. You guys are what Keeps them in business they can give you anything and you'll readily embrace it, that is what good marketing is all about.
And I have listened to various critcism from those who have reviewed our work, have any of you even read one of our reviews?
and when I get done with a book I go back and tear it apart. I'm never one to say my book is perfect, never will! But I'll check you guys later. I got work to do.
doommachine
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Man you're the greatest. Where do you get this rhetoric? Have you even been to a comic book store?
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ok, i'm going into this with a blank slate, and going only by my own thoughts.
I'm one who prefers good writing to good art, because i like to read good stories and see the art as icing on the cake so to speak. a special bonus with the story being a prize, so keep in mind I'm only talking about the summaries, I haven't looked at any art yet.
I've only read the main summaries page so far, so I'm only going to comment on them for now. I have very eccentric, eclectic tastes in just about everything, from music, to movies, to art , to books and the like, so I'm open to just about anything.
I think your stories would grab readers better if the summaries were tweaked some. I think some possible rearranging or maybe different diction and such could make some of your stories sound more enticing.
The serenade summary starts off well, but the last sentence seems fragmented. maybe a little more info or rewording would make it sound more effective.
There seems to be a bit of repetitiveness in your summaries in that they either start with the character's name , or a description of the character. In no way am I saying this is wrong, but since all your stories are placed on one page, it would be beneficial to your layout, and the stories as well, to spice their descriptions up.
just suggestions.
i read the summaries for your stories, and i'd recommend you going to checking the grammar and such. i've seen a few punctuation errors, and some possible fragmenting.
I'm one who prefers good writing to good art, because i like to read good stories and see the art as icing on the cake so to speak. a special bonus with the story being a prize, so keep in mind I'm only talking about the summaries, I haven't looked at any art yet.
I've only read the main summaries page so far, so I'm only going to comment on them for now. I have very eccentric, eclectic tastes in just about everything, from music, to movies, to art , to books and the like, so I'm open to just about anything.
I think your stories would grab readers better if the summaries were tweaked some. I think some possible rearranging or maybe different diction and such could make some of your stories sound more enticing.
The serenade summary starts off well, but the last sentence seems fragmented. maybe a little more info or rewording would make it sound more effective.
There seems to be a bit of repetitiveness in your summaries in that they either start with the character's name , or a description of the character. In no way am I saying this is wrong, but since all your stories are placed on one page, it would be beneficial to your layout, and the stories as well, to spice their descriptions up.
just suggestions.
i read the summaries for your stories, and i'd recommend you going to checking the grammar and such. i've seen a few punctuation errors, and some possible fragmenting.
drastic_quench
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Yes. Fix your grammatical mistakes. The clock is ticking.ComicChick04 said:
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drastic_quench said:
wow, i just reread that and can't believe i put that. my brain must be frazzled from last minute studying for my biggest exam in the morning. i really shouldn't have waited til today to start studying but it's too late to whine about it.
EvilVillain
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they are the Ed Wood of comic art.
But seriously, here Is my rant. If this book is in fact drawn by your 12 year old. Then you need to take her away from comic books and sign her up for real art classes. If she has a passion for drawing and a natural talent (that is completely subjective) then you owe it to her. Giving her a pencil and paper and absolute freedom as well as your constant praise is only detrimental. Meaning? Do not print her drawings and tell her she is wonderful and better than everyone else etc etc. My mother was an University art instructor. Before I was copying images from comic books, I was drawing apples on a table, life drawings of models et al. Then I copied comics and then I learned the fine art of it. This all led me to art school, where I was able to fine tune everything so that now, I can draw what I want with the skill to back it. It is a process.
As for computer colors, I do not buy your arguement. A computer is as much a tool as a pencil. There are some amazing guys doing this work, who trained and studied, unlike you. They have equal understanding as a painter of light and shadow and tone. Do not make point blank statements like this. It makes you look like a moron.
My rant is done.
But seriously, here Is my rant. If this book is in fact drawn by your 12 year old. Then you need to take her away from comic books and sign her up for real art classes. If she has a passion for drawing and a natural talent (that is completely subjective) then you owe it to her. Giving her a pencil and paper and absolute freedom as well as your constant praise is only detrimental. Meaning? Do not print her drawings and tell her she is wonderful and better than everyone else etc etc. My mother was an University art instructor. Before I was copying images from comic books, I was drawing apples on a table, life drawings of models et al. Then I copied comics and then I learned the fine art of it. This all led me to art school, where I was able to fine tune everything so that now, I can draw what I want with the skill to back it. It is a process.
As for computer colors, I do not buy your arguement. A computer is as much a tool as a pencil. There are some amazing guys doing this work, who trained and studied, unlike you. They have equal understanding as a painter of light and shadow and tone. Do not make point blank statements like this. It makes you look like a moron.
My rant is done.
Dew k. Mosi
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everyone needs to calm down in here
The Lynx comic is done by a child, and whether or not you were a better artist at 12 has no relevancy on this issue. I admit when I saw the picture I thought "Looks like a kid did it" and I snickered. It ceased to be funny when I found out a kid did do it. There is no reason for the girl to continue writing and drawing if her early efforts are slammed.
if you can critique these books in a respectful manner, you may post here. If you want to piss off kissmecomix then you can find somewhere else to do it.
The Lynx comic is done by a child, and whether or not you were a better artist at 12 has no relevancy on this issue. I admit when I saw the picture I thought "Looks like a kid did it" and I snickered. It ceased to be funny when I found out a kid did do it. There is no reason for the girl to continue writing and drawing if her early efforts are slammed.
if you can critique these books in a respectful manner, you may post here. If you want to piss off kissmecomix then you can find somewhere else to do it.
Mrh7448
I am not a Side Kick
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kissmecomix said:
It's very clear that you don't wish to listen to any criticism on your work, constructive or otherwise. You use the fact that you hand colour your books as though it's the greatest selling point. If colouring is badly done whether done by hand or computer it's still looks bad. Your books don't have a good handle on utilizing that colour.
While appreciate your daughter trying (I will mention on your site you say Lynx is produced by a teen, perhaps you should put in her actual age) She still has a lot to learn. I really would suggest taking her to some lessons and let her learn how to draw realistically. By publishing her work and just telling her how wonderful her work is isn't going to help her in the long run. She needs to hear criticism in order to improve. Even Manga artist have a strong sense of anatomy, structure and movement. Let her learn the rules first so that she can know how to break them later.
I'm guessing you only listen to the good reviews. I looked for some online and haven't found much good to be said. While Serenade seems to have gotten a little bit of a decent shot. Most still seem think that the art and writing is still sub-par, even with that title.
Here are a few I have found:
http://www.collectortimes.com/2003_10/indie3.html
http://www.orcafresh.net/wonder/rv100703.html
and this one has some good things to say about Serenade, but also what needs to be improved upon.
popcultureshock.com/index.php?p=40520
I think you should really re-evaluate and consider these crits and find ways to improve your product, instead of just spouting the same defenses, art is subjective, difference of style etc.
K
kissmecomix
Guest
We do not "cherry pick" our reviews we take the good with the bad, and learn and move on. We are reviewed by those who are within the industry either in producing, or they have been reviewing books for over 10 yrs. We understand that what we do isn't for everybody.
What is some of you consider rhetoric is nothing more than the subliminal marketing techniques used by the major publishers. Words create a powerful image that we all pick up on. Furthermore, they constantly drill into their artist stable to draw things a certain way ( which is their right, and is why there's Image) that is permeates into a "captive audience".
I understand you don't see it that way, as far as wether we need to improve, anybody doing anything sees that. We critcize we just don't do and say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
There's a lot of art out there that beyond comic art, all we say is that take a look without bias.
What is some of you consider rhetoric is nothing more than the subliminal marketing techniques used by the major publishers. Words create a powerful image that we all pick up on. Furthermore, they constantly drill into their artist stable to draw things a certain way ( which is their right, and is why there's Image) that is permeates into a "captive audience".
I understand you don't see it that way, as far as wether we need to improve, anybody doing anything sees that. We critcize we just don't do and say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
There's a lot of art out there that beyond comic art, all we say is that take a look without bias.
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