Knightfall

[slimshady247]

Are all three parts of Knightfall a good read?

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Only the first one.

 

[Rocketman]

Only the first one.

The third one is pretty epic. And the ending is quite satisfying. I was glued to it.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

It's just my opinion, keep your stupid smilies.

The whole last part is boring to me. Quite the opposite of "Death of Superman". And those tpb's lack Knightsquest... That's pretty dumb.

 

[Polaris23]

Yeah the first one is easily the best one. I just don't like the idea of Azrael.

 

[Cain]

I used to have all the issues and sold them off on Ebay years ago. It's worth reading but when I came around to re-reading the story in trade format I found that it was missing a lot of essential stuff (Ie: Vengeance of Bane, Knightquest). So it does read a bit disjointed.

Word has it that DC is going to republish it all over again so I'm just waiting on that to see if they give it the Absolute treatment or at least include everything in multiple volumes before ever rebuying this storyline again.

If you can't wait to see what happens with the new reprint I'd say just go ahead and get em. Chances are though that you'll feel compelled to repurchase once they do reprint them in the event that they happen to finally collected a lot more properly the 2nd time around.

 

[DaveMoral]

What's the deal with it lacking the Vengeance of Bane and Knightquest?

The superior experience of the Knightfall storyline is, IMO, Denny O'Neil's novelization. Some things are taken out of it, but that's mainly all of Robin's parts in the story which... at the end of the day, are non-essential to that tale.

 

[Ipodman]

I bet DC is gonna re-release this soon because TDKR...

 

[Lord]

It's just my opinion, keep your stupid smilies.

The whole last part is boring to me. Quite the opposite of "Death of Superman". And those tpb's lack Knightsquest... That's pretty dumb.

Death of superman is the most overrated comic of all time

 

[Cain]

Death of superman is the most overrated comic of all time

Impossible since Batman: Hush and The Long Halloween have it beaten by a quarter mile.

 

[SuperFerret]

Death of Superman isn't even considered good by most people. It's a decent story, but nothing of note.

Haven't read Knightfall, is that where Bane breaks Batman's back?

 

[Ipodman]

Yea.

 

[Cain]

Death of Superman isn't even considered good by most people. It's a decent story, but nothing of note.

This is what I mean. How can a story that most people wouldn't even consider top 20 of all time within the medium be overrated?

Death of Superman was a novelty that had it's moments and once upon a time broke all sorts of records but many other comics subsequently rendered those records pretty moot anyway. A lot of mediocre comics sell. Look at all the garbage Marvel puts out that sells. It doesn't mean they're overrated. Tony Daniel's Batman outsold Snyder's 'tec by about 30K every month and I doubt most people would consider the former to have some of the best Batman comic book issues ever like they would with the latter.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Death of superman is the most overrated comic of all time

Learn to read and comprehend!!!

I forgot for a short moment that I am on the internet where I have to spell everything out:

The first part of Knightfall was the best, the last part was the worst.

The first part of "Death of Superman" was the worst, the last one ("Reign of the Supermen") was the best.

 

[SpideyInATree]

As was said earlier...the trades are a little muddled because you're missing important chunks of story. I say give it a shot if you're really looking to explore Batman's mythos. If you want a more in depth read check out the Knightquest issues on eBay or on comic book back issue websites. Or, heck, hit a local comics show and you can find about 99.9 percent of those issues in the 50 cent or dollar bins.

As a whole...it read pretty well because they had it planned out from the beginning unlike a certain 90's storyline over in the Spider-Man books.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Well, Knightfall is for my taste WAY too close to earlier Batman stories like "Blind Justice" and the Gerry Conway's Killer-Croc arc. In Batman #400 Killer Croc even claims that he wants to break the Batman's back! Bane is just a re-working of the pre-crisis Waylon Jones (since the post-crisis version is essentially a totally different character).

The thing with Azrael-As-Batman is also not really believable to me. I don't know why he was the first choice. Always the big thing with those crossovers. They are forced and often do not make sense from an intra-DCU point of view. For example, No Man's LAnd. THe Justice LEague could have rebuild the dumb city with ease.

 

[CConn]

Always the big thing with those crossovers. They are forced and often do not make sense from an intra-DCU point of view. For example, No Man's LAnd. THe Justice LEague could have rebuild the dumb city with ease.

The thing though is, they make everyone so goddamn overpowered, without having that level of...suspension of disbelief, every story would be over in two pages.

Black Mask is trying to sell a dirty bomb on the black market? Superman's thrown it into space before you can get to the title page.

The Joker has 300 school children kidnapped? The Flash saved them before Batman could put on his codpiece.

Aquaman would have Riddler's face punched in before he even finished writing his riddle.

Etc.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

The thing though is, they make everyone so goddamn overpowered, without having that level of...suspension of disbelief, every story would be over in two pages.

Black Mask is trying to sell a dirty bomb on the black market? Superman's thrown it into space before you can get to the title page.

The Joker has 300 school children kidnapped? The Flash saved them before Batman could put on his codpiece.

Aquaman would have Riddler's face punched in before he even finished writing his riddle.

Etc.

My "suspension of disbelief" consists of seeing each superhero in his own universe that sometimes flows together with the other ones. But it's not my fault that DC had to include the dumb "Superman gets kicked out of Gotham City by Batman" issue in No Man's Land to address the point of a shared universe.

 

[Cain]

That's why I've always been a big believer in the whole "keep them to their own city & singular universe" thing for the solo books. Only having everyone come together during the most dangerous of events where they have the really large scale threats. Having Darkseid as the reason the JL comes together in the DCnU is a good start so let's see.

 

[CConn]

My "suspension of disbelief" consists of seeing each superhero in his own universe that sometimes flows together with the other ones. But it's not my fault that DC had to include the dumb "Superman gets kicked out of Gotham City by Batman" issue in No Man's Land to address the point of a shared universe.

But ignoring other superheroes exist is just as nonsensical.

IMO, at least.

The real answer is; they shouldn't have such ridiculously over powered heroes, and they should have one actually plausible reason for Superman not to interfere with Gotham, etc.

 

[SuperFerret]

There is one. Superman needs to step back and let humanity develop on its own, and recover from such things on its own. Plus, Gotham becoming a No Man's Land was a political decision, and interfering would open him up to a lot of issues there. Plus, no one wants to hear the "stay out of my city" crap from Bruce.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

But ignoring other superheroes exist is just as nonsensical.

IMO, at least.

I don't know. Why can't I just pick an issue of 'Tec without being annoyed by other superheroes. I buy a Batman comic and that's his world. Even a Superman with vastly reduced powers can still take down Joker, Riddler and company with ease. Everyone should be able to read a Batman comic without even knowing that Superman exists.

The real answer is; they shouldn't have such ridiculously over powered heroes, and they should have one actually plausible reason for Superman not to interfere with Gotham, etc.

When those "ridiculously overpowered heroes" came to be there was no real DC universe. Just because fanboys get overly obsessed by continuity and all this stuff don't let the characters suffer. Back in the day Superman encountered different Martians than Batman did. But then at some point this Marvel-thinking started to sink in. I mean the idea of having the Flash hang up with the Martian Manhunter on a boring sunday afternoon is a nice one, but I would never want that this kind of approach limiting the characters as individual, separate entities.

So the basic question is: Do you want the real characters with stories made for them or do you want them compressed into a pseudo-working, closed-system DC universe? I choose the first one.

There is one. Superman needs to step back and let humanity develop on its own, and recover from such things on its own. Plus, Gotham becoming a No Man's Land was a political decision, and interfering would open him up to a lot of issues there. Plus, no one wants to hear the "stay out of my city" crap from Bruce.

"No Man's Land" is of course, the prime example of a non-sense set-up. And about that Superman reason. I don't buy it. Then Superman could stop existing altogether. This argument might apply to "WHy is Superman not ending world hunger", but not in the case of a catastrophe. Or a super villain attack. Let those puny humans handle that by themselves, eh?

Superheroes aren't realistic. They are daytime fantasies. Deconstruction is the worst thing that will happen to them and this kind of thinking as ruined comics.

 

[SuperFerret]

I agree. Maybe Superman was off doing something else the whole time. It usually works to get the FF out of Spider-Man's stuff.

 

[CConn]

I don't know. Why can't I just pick an issue of 'Tec without being annoyed by other superheroes. I buy a Batman comic and that's his world. Even a Superman with vastly reduced powers can still take down Joker, Riddler and company with ease. Everyone should be able to read a Batman comic without even knowing that Superman exists.

Oh no, I understand that. And you can do that. Like 90% of Batman's issues feature just Batman.

It's for that reason it really shouldn't be a big deal the other 10% of the time when someone else does show up

IWhen those "ridiculously overpowered heroes" came to be there was no real DC universe. Just because fanboys get overly obsessed by continuity and all this stuff don't let the characters suffer. Back in the day Superman encountered different Martians than Batman did. But then at some point this Marvel-thinking started to sink in. I mean the idea of having the Flash hang up with the Martian Manhunter on a boring sunday afternoon is a nice one, but I would never want that this kind of approach limiting the characters as individual, separate entities.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense.

DC superheroes have made appearances in each other's books and team books since the 40s. Hardly a Marvel-created notion.

ISo the basic question is: Do you want the real characters with stories made for them or do you want them compressed into a pseudo-working, closed-system DC universe? I choose the first one.

That's not the question at all. I feel like you're having an argument inside your own head, honestly.

I"No Man's Land" is of course, the prime example of a non-sense set-up. And about that Superman reason. I don't buy it. Then Superman could stop existing altogether. This argument might apply to "WHy is Superman not ending world hunger", but not in the case of a catastrophe. Or a super villain attack. Let those puny humans handle that by themselves, eh?

Superheroes aren't realistic. They are daytime fantasies. Deconstruction is the worst thing that will happen to them and this kind of thinking as ruined comics.

Oh no, I agree.

Personally, I'm the kind of guy who likes the campy, out of this world and unbelievable nature of comics. Let Flash be able ot travel back in time, have Batman have an almost godlike importance to reality as a whole, I love that stuff.

You're the one who was complaining about logicalities.

 

[CConn]

Impossible since Batman: Hush and The Long Halloween have it beaten by a quarter mile.

That makes me want to slap you.

Those books may be overrated, but they're still damn good. Death of Superman is a waste of paper.