The Force Awakens Learning from the reinvention of Doctor Who/Star Trek

[Thundercrack85]

I kinda always viewed Obi-Wan as the protagonist of the Prequels. Being featured more predominately than anyone else.

In Episode II and III, yeah, I can see that.

But in Episode I? He's a secondary character to Qui-Gon. Then he just disappears for almost the entirety of the second act, and much of the third.

Plot, pacing, etc, were terrible in that movie.

 

[Lord]

Yes, but they weren't a part of the story.

Luke Skywalker and Han Solo were both ordinary people. Anakin, not so much.

In the Phantom Menace we're told he's basically Jesus.

They need to balance sci fi and fantasy. The prequel trilogy was 90% fantasy, 10% old school sci fi.

He was part of a rebelion, it was expected that most people were normal, the Prequels were about the fall of the republic and the Jedi so it's normal these important people were featured more prominently

 

[DaveMoral]

Huh...? SW is Sci-Fi. Sure, it has some mythical elements like the force(which can be explained scientifically using midichlorians)... But still, the majority is pretty much Sci-Fi.

Space Opera. Sci-fi is generally more series in tone and more plausible scientifically. Almost nothing about Star Wars is, IMO, particularly plausible.

 

[Darthphere]

That's disappointing. We should have lightsabers by now.

 

[Gianakin_]

Huh...? SW is Sci-Fi. Sure, it has some mythical elements like the force(which can be explained scientifically using midichlorians)... But still, the majority is pretty much Sci-Fi.

Nope. It's fantasy a la LotR, but in a sci-fi setting. Space Opera is the short way of describing my 1st sentence.

SW is about heroes' journeys, a la Joseph Campbell. That's not sci-fi. Replace X-Wings with wyverns and it's perfect fantasy. Replace anything in Star Trek (which is indeed sci-fi) with anything from the fantasy genre and it's out of place.

 

[Gianakin_]

The problem with the prequel trilogy... okay, one of the main problems, is that it's not a whole lot like the original trilogy.

Which is never inherently bad.

In the original trilogy, the Jedi were an odd group. Most of the galaxy was full of regular people (even if they were aliens). I.e. ordinary people. It was gritty.

They were extinct and it was a world under the Empire's rule. Of course it would've been grittier than the PT world, which was a golden age for the Republic and the Jedi, so to speak.

 

[Gianakin_]

Pretty much. Another key problem with the Phantom Menace (besides all the plot holes), is that they couldn't agree on who the protagonist was.

I bring this up, since, this is the first movie of a new trilogy (like Phantom Menace)... I hope they really avoid some of these pitfalls.

In A New Hope, you had important supporting characters, but it was clear that Luke was the protagonist.

So, an ensemble movie is bad?

 

[Thundercrack85]

So, an ensemble movie is bad?

Well, it didn't help here. I mean, plot holes, bad writing, and acting aside. The movie couldn't decide who the protagonist was. So instead we sort of stumble around, with various character being sidelined (mostly Kenobi).

This led to the final battle having... what? Four battles going on at once? Which led to viewer fatigue (even the people who made the movie saw the problem there).

 

[Octoberist]

While its not scifi, Casino Royale, or specifically now Skyfall, is another example in how to preserve the legacy while injecting new life into a series.

 

[Gianakin_]

Well, it didn't help here. I mean, plot holes, bad writing, and acting aside. The movie couldn't decide who the protagonist was. So instead we sort of stumble around, with various character being sidelined (mostly Kenobi).

Why do you say "it couldn't decide"? It's the very definition of an ensemble to not focus on one character and sometimes sideline some to focus on others. Maybe I'm missing something?

This led to the final battle having... what? Four battles going on at once? Which led to viewer fatigue (even the people who made the movie saw the problem there).

did you mind RotJ? 'Cause it had 3 battles going on at the same time. Exact same technique and editing. TPM had one more. So?

If what you're saying is that you didn't care about the characters and the story by that point, then that's a whole different thing.

 

[Gianakin_]

While its not scifi, Casino Royale, or specifically now Skyfall, is another example in how to preserve the legacy while injecting new life into a series.

Indeed. People should be using this as an example now. Skyfall, that is.

 

[LegendAssemble]

Huh...? SW is Sci-Fi. Sure, it has some mythical elements like the force(which can be explained scientifically using midichlorians)... But still, the majority is pretty much Sci-Fi.

Star Trek is Sci Fi, star wars fits the fantasy bill. Theres a lot of high tech stuff but none of it is explained or has any science behind it, it's an adventure fantasy movie that has Sci Fi elements.

 

[LegendAssemble]

Why do you say "it couldn't decide"? It's the very definition of an ensemble to not focus on one character and sometimes sideline some to focus on others. Maybe I'm missing something?

HAHAHA It's not an ensemble movie it's just a movie that doesn't really develop any of it's characters or put any of them on some sort of journey to growth. The closest thing to a protagonist you can find is Jar Jar Binks, really he's the only character that grows at all from beginning to end.

did you mind RotJ? 'Cause it had 3 battles going on at the same time. Exact same technique and editing. TPM had one more. So?

You can't compare them at all, they were totally different conflicts.

RotJ:
*Luke Duels his father on the death star and is tempted by the darkside and the evil Emperor of the Galaxy.
*Lando leads rebel forces to destroy the Death Star against all odds and are being used as a ploy from the Emperor to make Luke feel hopeless
*Han and Leia are on the ground bellow trying to make it possible for Lando to get through the superweapons shields.

TPM:
*Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan see Darth Maul so they have a silent battle as they know nothing about eachother, also why did they go alone if the council thought discovering who this man was, was so important?
*Padme leads her people to over take the Trade Federation.
Anakin has a COMPLETELY ACCIDENTAL adventure in space and ACCIDENTALLY blows up the federation ship.
*Jar Jar leads the distraction attack and has slap stick comedy

If what you're saying is that you didn't care about the characters and the story by that point, then that's a whole different thing.

The fact is there was no emotion in the Phantom Menace's ending. It's time to accept it was not a good movie. I was a kid when the prequels came out too, and for that reason I still like the Phantom Menace, as it reminds me of my childhood, but I can see now that it's a bad movie especially compared to the original films which i also enjoyed at that age.

 

[Gianakin_]

HAHAHA It's not an ensemble movie it's just a movie that doesn't really develop any of it's characters or put any of them on some sort of journey to growth. The closest thing to a protagonist you can find is Jar Jar Binks, really he's the only character that grows at all from beginning to end.

And only Han changed in RotJ. So? "An ensemble cast is made up of cast members in which the principal actors and performers are assigned roughly equal amounts of importance and screen time in a dramatic production". It was an ensemble movie, you just didn't like the way the characters were developed. Big diff.

You can't compare them at all, they were totally different conflicts.

The poster complained about the quantity of battles, not the quality. I know you can't wait to jump on the opportunity to bash the PT, but try and show some restraint.

RotJ:
*Luke Duels his father on the death star and is tempted by the darkside and the evil Emperor of the Galaxy.
*Lando leads rebel forces to destroy the Death Star against all odds and are being used as a ploy from the Emperor to make Luke feel hopeless
*Han and Leia are on the ground bellow trying to make it possible for Lando to get through the superweapons shields.

TPM:
*Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan see Darth Maul so they have a silent battle as they know nothing about eachother, also why did they go alone if the council thought discovering who this man was, was so important?
*Padme leads her people to over take the Trade Federation.
Anakin has a COMPLETELY ACCIDENTAL adventure in space and ACCIDENTALLY blows up the federation ship.
*Jar Jar leads the distraction attack and has slap stick comedy

Look, it's one thing if you don't like them, a whole different thing what I was discussing with Thundercrack. Please try and put the previous discussion in perspective and take the time to read my arguments before just bashing the PT.

The fact is there was no emotion in the Phantom Menace's ending. It's time to accept it was not a good movie. I was a kid when the prequels came out too, and for that reason I still like the Phantom Menace, as it reminds me of my childhood, but I can see now that it's a bad movie especially compared to the original films which i also enjoyed at that age.

I crap on the nostalgia argument. So I'm not fond of the PT because I grew up with it. Besides, the OT is what I grew up with, those were the first SW movies I watched on TV. I like the Prequels more because of my reasons and you dislike them because of yours.

But I'm warning you now, if you ever talk to me using the "accept the fact that X, Y, Z" excuse of an argument again, I will report you.

 

[Octoberist]

Star Trek is Sci Fi, star wars fits the fantasy bill. Theres a lot of high tech stuff but none of it is explained or has any science behind it, it's an adventure fantasy movie that has Sci Fi elements.

I never got this argument that Star Wars is just 'fantasy' when Sci-Fi is a-many of things. It's kinda of a weird movement. It's not just a fantasy movie with sci-fi elements esp when it's dealing with aliens and technology (Droids, Death Star, ships). I mean, Looper doesn't explain it's time travel or tech, so does it make it 'fantasy'? Back to the Future is a comedy based on sci-fi and we only get loosely explain in very layman's terms how it works based on the film's logic. Dr. Who explains squat, but i guess it's a mixed genre anyway.

I know that fantasy and sci-fi these days are blurred (urban fantasy, steampunk), and I think some titles are more loose with the genre than others, but make no mistake Star Wars obviously leans towards sci-fi even if it doesn't follow the original textbook definition. A definition which is archaic at this point.

 

[Airwings]

Abram's Trek reboot inspired by previous Star Wars.... then why can't ep 7-9 borrow a few elements from Star Trek 1979-2002?
How would it be like? More focus on technology and politics/different races than in the past! But calm down, the force will always be dominant.

 

[VM1138]

Honestly, Star Wars doesn't need to be re-invented, and that would be the worst course possible.

Just continue in the traditional Star Wars vein. It's not a reboot so they need to maintain continuity. I don't want to see stylistic choices, flashbacks, slow-motion, etc. in the new movies.

There is a lot of continuity between the PT and OT, despite the difference in special effects, etc. We just saw different sides to the Star Wars universe, not an entirely new take on it.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I never got this argument that Star Wars is just 'fantasy' when Sci-Fi is a-many of things. It's kinda of a weird movement. It's not just a fantasy movie with sci-fi elements esp when it's dealing with aliens and technology (Droids, Death Star, ships). I mean, Looper doesn't explain it's time travel or tech, so does it make it 'fantasy'? Back to the Future is a comedy based on sci-fi and we only get loosely explain in very layman's terms how it works based on the film's logic. Dr. Who explains squat, but i guess it's a mixed genre anyway.

I know that fantasy and sci-fi these days are blurred (urban fantasy, steampunk), and I think some titles are more loose with the genre than others, but make no mistake Star Wars obviously leans towards sci-fi even if it doesn't follow the original textbook definition. A definition which is archaic at this point.

I tend to agree. Even IF a person wanted to apply clear-cut genres to Star Wars, they'd need to specify which period (not to mention medium) of Star Wars they're talking about. Midi-chlorians in TPM and ROTS are a clear move into "science fantasy", for instance, while ANH and ESB were space operas. It'd be a gross disservice to the franchise to slap it all under one umbrella.