Endgame Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

[warhorse78]

yeah, walked out with some questions about time travel and stuff like that.

i don't believe he came back via the machine b/c he didn't pop out of it. he was just sitting on a bench away from everyone - i think he got there in another way.

timeline A: avengers beat thanos and stark dies. cap leaves and goes back in time.

timeline B created. he lives his life with peggy. grows old. and imho, peggy dies of old age.

timeline B old cap comes back to timeline A via some technology we don't know and gives his shield to falcon.

he did not come back in the time travel uniform.

The ending with Steve is what is making this movie seem incomplete. There is a lot of stuff that went on off screen, and the end result makes him seem very out of character. How would he return the soul stone? How would he react to the Red Skull guarding it? How is he going to get the stone back into Jane? Is it possible he did indeed have his own timeline with Peggy, but after she dies he seeks out that timeline's Hank Pym so he can come back to the main timeline to pass off the shield to Sam? This is the only logical explanation I can think of. But, I have to say, when a movie ends up leaving core plot devices to the audience's imagination, it doesn't speak highly of that plot. I'm just hoping we get things cleared up in the Black Widow movie.

 

[thalidomide]

If Cap returned the stone to Vormir, does it mean he saw the Red Skull? Also how does he return it? Is he just going to give it to the Red Skull?

 

[warhorse78]

My biggest gripe about the movie, although it's just a personal one, is that Bucky didn't become Captain America. He seemed like the most logical choice and they foreshadowed it many times.
Thinking about that again, I wondered why he tells Sam to go over to Steve and somehow knew it was ok. Did Steve tell Bucky in the past? If so, why didn't Bucky age?

I don't mind Sam becoming the new Captain America, but you have a point on Steve's aging. Honestly, he should have never really aged to be honest, or not to that degree considering it's already shown the serum has affects on his cells regenerating at high speeds, which is why he survived the ice and can't get drunk. In theory, he should be able to live at least 500 years.

 

[harlequinade]

He's gonna *****slap him with it

 

[MadVillainy]

I don't mind Sam becoming the new Captain America, but you have a point on Steve's aging. Honestly, he should have never really aged to be honest, or not to that degree considering it's already shown the serum has affects on his cells regenerating at high speeds, which is why he survived the ice and can't get drunk. In theory, he should be able to live at least 500 years.

I kinda saw it as he ages just at a really slower rate. So if he as a physically 20 something year old guy goes back to the 1940s, lets say 1945, then by 2023 he's like 90. And still seems rather spry for 90 something.

But I do get the point that that doesn't really jive

 

[warhorse78]

But then does he cause Peggy to get a divorce (kinda a d*** move. How is Peggy supposed to turn down: "I travelled back in time for you) and then does that make Sharon, who kissed, Steve related to Steve? Don't like that implication.

Not to mention, it makes Steve a complete hypocrite after he tells everyone after the snap that you must move on from the tragedies in your life, because if he decides to go back to have some life with Peggy, he didn't move on himself. Thor wanted to tell his mother what was going to happen to her, but she stopped him because it wasn't his place to do that. So, where does Steve get off from going back into time and changing Peggy's future. It really gets messed up. Seriously, I still think they should have had him kill himself at the end with the soul stone so Natasha can come back. This is something that Cap would do. Not what we got in the end.

 

[MadVillainy]

Not to mention, it makes Steve a complete hypocrite after he tells everyone after the snap that you must move on from the tragedies in your life, because if he decides to go back to have some life with Peggy, he didn't move on himself.

Well he did mention that he was a hypocrite when he spoke with Widow. He spoke about telling everyone else to move on, but he can't himself

 

[JtheDreamer]

Just a guess, but I feel that if the first thing that Cap does is bringing back the time stone to the Ancient One, she can help him with how to return all the other stones - maybe even restoring the mind stone to a sceptre and the space stone to the tesseract form.

But see that's where you're sort've writing your own story, not something foreshadowed in the movie.

 

[warhorse78]

Every time jump they make creates a new timeline that we shouldn't bother about, because it's a separate untold story and it doesn't affect the main timeline. So it's not really about changing the past to change the future, but inter-dimensional travel.

Regarding Cap. What if he didn't live a life with Peggy? He just went back to have his last dance with her, then left and had to wait for 70 years to return back to the main timeline?

Doubtful. His mentioning of having some of that life Tony was talking about, combined with the fact he had a wedding ring on, pretty much indicates he went back into time to have an alternate life with the woman he loves. I guess I can buy that this happened in another timeline, but Steve is still the mainline Steve, and I do believe when Peggy died, he went in search for Ant-Man or Hank Pym so he could use their time travel machine to get back to the main timeline so he can make his peace and pass over the Captain America torch to Sam.

 

[warhorse78]

But why would he change those things? If he changed that in one timeline it would not be affecting in his own reality.

Then again, by having Steve on the bench they're implying there is only one stable timeline.

Lord...

Just face it, Russo brothers wanted to send Steve Rogers off with a happy ending, but in the end, made him into a complete jerk in the process. He was never meant to have a happy ending. He was always meant to sacrifice his life for the greater good of others. And this movie stole that from him and his fans.

 

[Incredible Hans]

But see that's where you're sort've writing your own story, not something foreshadowed in the movie.

Since we don't know what Cap did in the past, I'd say my theory is a very plausible theory. Yes, we are not told by the movie that he did it that way, but since he *could* have done it that way, I'd say there is no loophole.

 

[warhorse78]

But wouldn't he return to the same spot on the machine? That's what happen with everybody else right?

He has two choices, either after Peggy dies, he tracks down Scott or Hank and uses their time machine to get back to the main timeline, or he goes to whoever is in control of the time stone (either be it Ancient One or Stephen Strange) and they take him back to his current timeline.

 

[Kanon]

My only nitpick, and probably is something I missed is, Pym particles were needed to jump back and from timelines via the Quantim realm, and the "time GPS" to track origin and destination, and Nebula had particles for one trip, and one "GPS". Past Nebula use them to go to the future, and then how did she pulled Thanos from the past? Maybe she left the GPS and that wasn't needed to return, but what about the Pym particles?

Ok, I watched again, and there might be a way for this to be solved.

There is a set of unused Pym particles and space-time GPS in 2014: Vormir, Black Widow dies to get the Soul Stone, and she never returns to the main timeline. Thanos and the Black Order know from Nebula that that's where the Soul Stone was (also Gamora I think already knows).

 

[writer0327]

Steve is like 160 or so now, right?

 

[NewYorkSpider]

Time Travel makes my head hurt. This is why I was worried about them using it in this movie.

I'm not sure why some people are upset about Steve staying in the past with Peggy. Before all this that timeline never existed. They were just branched off into new ones.

 

[Dark Raven]

I suppose in a future film if they really need the true Captain America, they can go back to the past and get him and bring him to the future to help out. Wouldn't even matter if Evans is older, because they could get him from say, the 1970s or 80s. This Cap would remember the likes of Bucky and Sam because he is the same one who was with them before. Getting Cap would be the same as getting the Infinity Stones from the past to use in the present.

It still leaves open the possibility of bringing back Evans as Cap again.

 

[Boy Scout]

How would replacing the stones at the exact moments they were taken even work? Since they already went back into the past to take the stones, wouldn’t they just run into the versions of themselves that took them in the first place? That plan might have worked if the stones were just floating around in space and up for grabs, but they specifically and intentionally interacted with and manipulated other people to accomplish their plan.

And even if they simply went back to even earlier points and simply replaced the stones, their future-past versions would’ve still gone back and taken them to bring everybody back, creating a paradox.

 

[drmick]

Anybody think Bucky knew a lot more of what was going on?

Maybe the new TV show will answer some of our questions about what Steve got up to?

 

[NewYorkSpider]

How would replacing the stones at the exact moments they were taken even work? Since they already went back into the past to take the stones, wouldn’t they just run into the versions of themselves that took them in the first place? That plan might have worked if the stones were just floating around in space and up for grabs, but they specifically and intentionally interacted with and manipulated other people to accomplish their plan.

And even if they simply went back to even earlier points and simply replaced the stones, their future-past versions would’ve still gone back and taken them to bring everybody back, creating a paradox.

I thought about this as well. What confused me also was the fact that Steve was taking back the Stones when they weren't in their true forms. The Tesseract, Loki's Scepter, the Power Stone in the capsule and the Reality Stone wasn't liquid.

I really wonder how he got the Aether back into Jane!

 

[technobot]

Anybody think Bucky knew a lot more of what was going on?

Maybe the new TV show will answer some of our questions about what Steve got up to?

Bucky most certainly did. The Avengers knew the rules of time travel in the MCU. Maybe Steve and Bucky had a convo offscreen or more likely Bucky would have known that Steve, given the chance, would do something like this. They aren't saying "see ya in a couple", they are clearly saying goodbye. I teared up a bit.

 

[MadVillainy]

I thought about this as well. What confused me also was the fact that Steve was taking back the Stones when they weren't in their true forms. The Tesseract, Loki's Scepter, the Power Stone in the capsule and the Reality Stone wasn't liquid.

I really wonder how he got the Aether back into Jane!

Now we know what Cap was really up to

 

[Tony Stark]

How would replacing the stones at the exact moments they were taken even work? Since they already went back into the past to take the stones, wouldn’t they just run into the versions of themselves that took them in the first place? That plan might have worked if the stones were just floating around in space and up for grabs, but they specifically and intentionally interacted with and manipulated other people to accomplish their plan.

And even if they simply went back to even earlier points and simply replaced the stones, their future-past versions would’ve still gone back and taken them to bring everybody back, creating a paradox.

I heard this theory on Emergency Awsome on YT and I think its correct. The BW movie will be a backstory told from her exploring her history in the soul stone. I think she will be freed when Cap returns the stone. Not sure how this would work with Evan's contract being up. So again this creates another alternate timeline where Nat survives, but it's not part of the timeline we know.

 

[Dark Raven]

I heard this theory on Emergency Awsome on YT and I think its correct. The BW movie will be a backstory told from her exploring her history in the soul stone. I think she will be freed when Cap returns the stone. Not sure how this would work with Evan's contract being up. So again this creates another alternate timeline where Nat survives, but it's not part of the timeline we know.

What if it's not her story from within the Soul Stone but as she is falling to her death? They say that your whole life flashes before you when you're about to die. So maybe the movie will start with her plummeting to her doom as a framing device, and then will end with her landing on the ground with a thud.

 

[Mutant 77]

Bucky most certainly did. The Avengers knew the rules of time travel in the MCU. Maybe Steve and Bucky had a convo offscreen or more likely Bucky would have known that Steve, given the chance, would do something like this. They aren't saying "see ya in a couple", they are clearly saying goodbye. I teared up a bit.

I think they MUST clarify some points about time travel in the following movies and TV series. If they just overlook that and don't care to explain which "where" Old Cap was coming from, it's a big disappointment for me.

 

[C. Lee]

I think they MUST clarify some points about time travel in the following movies and TV series. If they just overlook that and don't care to explain which "where" Old Cap was coming from, it's a big disappointment for me.

I don't think they HAVE to do it. It worked for me.