Endgame Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

[OutOfBoose]

Every time jump they make creates a new timeline that we shouldn't bother about, because it's a separate untold story and it doesn't affect the main timeline. So it's not really about changing the past to change the future, but inter-dimensional travel.

Regarding Cap. What if he didn't live a life with Peggy? He just went back to have his last dance with her, then left and had to wait for 70 years to return back to the main timeline?

 

[MadVillainy]

Regarding Cap. What if he didn't live a life with Peggy? He just went back to have his last dance with her, then left and had to wait for 70 years to return back to the main timeline?

Oh yeah that's a possibility.
Actually I think that works. I'm sure now that the screen writers will use that explanation.

EDIT: Wait no it doesn't because didn't Steve explicitly say something about living a life like Tony had with Pepper or something like that. Or am I wrong?

Yeah, it's possible WandaVision was misdirection. Hawkeye is supposedly getting a series so yeah, Wanda and Hawkeye could be a good team. They both have lost someone important in their lives and the movie leaned heavily on that at the end.

I don't see Gamora as the type to just run away. Her sister (the good version of her) is still there so I doubt she would just ditch her. She doesn't have any attachment to the other characters but I don't see her just fleeing. Though I suppose it's possible.

I wouldn't call it running away. Just going to find herself. SImilar to what Thor is doing

 

[djsunyc]

Yeah, it's possible WandaVision was misdirection. Hawkeye is supposedly getting a series so yeah, Wanda and Hawkeye could be a good team. They both have lost someone important in their lives and the movie leaned heavily on that at the end.

I don't see Gamora as the type to just run away. Her sister (the good version of her) is still there so I doubt she would just ditch her. She doesn't have any attachment to the other characters but I don't see her just fleeing. Though I suppose it's possible.

wanda and hawkeye also have AOU history. his son is named after her bro.

i would rather gamora be snapped up with GOTG3 having quill deal with her death but also trying to find a way to find another version of gamora in another timeline. but i don't think they'll go that route.

much easier to say she escaped and part of GOTG3 is to find her.

 

[scarlet-witch]

I can buy a new branch but it still doesn't explain Peggy's family. She still needs to marry someone in order to have Sharon be her niece. Peggy's brother is dead. So Sharon could only come from her husband's side.

I get why they wanted to end on their dance, but what I think would've worked is for a scene of Cap going back and asking for that dance only, then saying he has to go, then messing up the time travel and coming back old. They could've still ended on the dance, but they could've shown the lead up to that.

 

[Shuri]

Let's start with how time travel generally works in fiction.

Fixed Timeline: You successfully kill adolescent Hitler, but a new Hitler figure, regardless of how or explanation, starts the Holocaust and WWII still happens. You still exist because no matter what you do in the past, the future must adhere to it. This is essentially called a closed Time Loop. The future is always the same because you were ALWAYS MEANT to change the past. It means the original Hitler was always killed by you.

Dynamic Timeline: You kill adolescent Hitler, and world does not experience WWII related events. Your Grandparents never meet. You shouldn't exist in the present. If you return to the present, this is what creates a PARADOX, depending on how people interpret it. Either you disappear from existence or you exist but should never have existed at all from this point on.

Alternate Timeline/Multiverse: a slight combination of the above. You kill Hitler in the past, but YOUR timeline does not change, it still happens. The idea is a new timeline is created when past events are altered, hence there is now a new timeline where WWII did not happen and you were never born. You didnt erase the events from your own timeline, you essentially created a new universe.


Now think about what happens in Endgame as the introduction of the Multiverse. Captain America went back in the exact points where they retrieved the Stones plus Mjolnir, THEN he just created another universe in which he gets to live his life with Peggy. In this timeline, Cap could easily have stopped Hydra, saved Bucky, saved Howard and Maria, etc, BUT whatever happened in the original timeline didn't change, as Professor Hulk explained he lived his future in a different past, that's why he returned in his original universe as an old man to give Sam the shield.

At least that's how I see it lol

This makes sense. But they should have somehow made it obvious that old Cap is from a different universe.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Oh yeah that's a possibility.
Actually I think that works. I'm sure now that the screen writers will use that explanation.

The only problem though, if that timeline eventually developed a time machine, then Cap from that timeline also probably wanted to travel back in time to Peggy. So infinite amount of timelines are create because of Cap's lust.

 

[MadVillainy]

The only thing that doesn't fit, if that timeline eventually developed a time machine, then Cap from that mainline also probably wanted to travel back in time. So infinite amount of timelines are create because of Cap's lust.

Jesus Christ man...
I know everyone is in a fever and creamed their jeans over this movie, but this had some really crappy plot writing.

 

[Detective Conan]

The time travel rules in the MCU work like Dragon Ball Z, lol.

 

[Abudefduf]

I could be wrong, but the way I interpreted it was that while Cap went back to return the stones, he returned to his past where his original self likely still made the ultimate sacrifice.

By that I mean while he got to love his life with Peggy, the other Cap was still buried in ice. Thus allowing him to be discovered and having the events of The Avengers onward still happening as they were meant to, like nothing happened.

So Captain America selfishly chose to erase Peggy's life with her husband and her children from another reality.

What a jerk. Thanks to this movie, Captain America now sucks.

 

[samsnee]

Guardians 3 is using Gunn’s script but I’m not sure if he would have included Thor in it. Or if he knew they’d bring back Gamora.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Jesus Christ man...
I know everyone is in a fever and creamed their jeans over this movie, but this had some really crappy plot writing.

It's full of stars holes.

 

[jmc]

I guess in the end it's just going to be one of these things you either buy into or not, because the debate, much like a time loop, is going to remain the same. I have a sneaking suspicion part of the reason I didn't care much for the film was because of this very problem. Without being 100% clear on what the rules where, it meant the stakes felt very murky. The closest comparison, at least in recent times, to this I can think of is Inception, and that movie made an effort almost to a fault of explaining to the audience how the rules of dreams and levels worked in order for the third act to pay off.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I have Bioshock Infinite flashbacks.

 

[samsnee]

The only problem though, if that timeline eventually developed a time machine, then Cap from that timeline also probably wanted to travel back in time to Peggy. So infinite amount of timelines are create because of Cap's lust.

Now I want to see a movie where we get a final battle that involves multiple Captain America’s from different multi verses taking on a bad guy.

 

[MadVillainy]

The time travel rules in the MCU work like Dragon Ball Z, lol.

Funny I was just thinking about that. I disagree. DBZ sets up it's time travel rules very well. Endgame could've taken notes.
Trunks goes back in time and it creates an alternate reality. He doesn't know this because he thinks the timeline is a stable one. But he finds out that what he, Future Trunks, does in Timeline A doesn't affect Timeline B (Future Trunks time)
Which is why Trunks has to go back to his own "time" (Timeline B), defeat the Androids along with Cell all over again, the Earth is still decimated, and the Z fighters are still dead.

That's pretty tight storytelling as far as time travel goes.

Guardians 3 is using Gunn’s script but I’m not sure if he would have included Thor in it. Or if he knew they’d bring back Gamora.

I think at that point they new how Endgame would end and they new Guardians 3 would be the Asgardians of the Galaxy.

So Captain America selfishly choose to erase Peggy's life with her husband and her children from another reality.

What a jerk. Thanks to this movie, Captain America now sucks.

Haha you should've kept the original post when you said "What a ****"

 

[Shuri]

I have major problems with Steve just merrily living out his life in the past with Peggy, knowing Bucky is being brainwashed and tortured, SHIELD is being infiltrated by HYDRA, etc., and doing nothing about any of it.

Completely OOC.

 

[MadVillainy]

But why would he change those things? If he changed that in one timeline it would not be affecting in his own reality.

Then again, by having Steve on the bench they're implying there is only one stable timeline.

Lord...

 

[Shuri]

To me, Cap was her husband all along.

Cap could have changed stuff like stop HYDRA or save Bucky...and it would have been a fun alternate timeline for HIM, but the main MCU timeline would be what it was for the characters we knew.

And let’s say he saves Bucky in the 50’s - what’s the ripple effect? If Bucky doesn’t kill Stark’s parents, does Tony become Iron Man to be able to stop Thanos? Etc etc. And where’s the line? Is Cap obligated to prevent 9/11? Stop the Zodiac killer? Or just accept his retirement and know that in the end everyone will end up at least in the timeline where they won.

Besides, Hawkeye had a secret family. Fury’s secrets had secrets. Why is it so crazy for people to believe that Steve with a mustache and fake name being Peggy’s husband that’s “always busy with work” couldn’t have been snuck through?

Because even if she managed to hide him from everyone else, Sharon should have recognised him from civil war, since he's now her uncle.

 

[MadVillainy]

Because even if she managed to hide him from everyone else, Sharon should have recognised him from civil war, since he's now her uncle.

Cap...you a nasty son of a ***** for this one

 

[MagicalMe]

Maybe Peggy still married Sharon's uncle but also secretly kept Steve in the basement as an additional companion. That's why Steve didn't want to talk about it, cause it was kind of embarrassing how he just got kept in the basement.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Because even if she managed to hide him from everyone else, Sharon should have recognised him from civil war, since he's now her uncle.

Eh, if we go by those rules, once Marty McFly hit his teenage years and looked identical to Calvin Klein, George McFly should have accused Lorraine of secretly having an affair with his buddy from high school and divorced her.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Maybe Peggy still married Sharon's uncle but also secretly kept Steve in the basement as an additional companion. That's why Steve didn't want to talk about it, cause it was kind of embarrassing how he just got kept in the basement.

Now I want a new film. Captain America: The Basement Years.

 

[MadVillainy]

Eh, if we go by those rules, once Marty McFly hit is teenage years and looked identical to Calvin Klein, George McFly should have accused Lorraine of secretly having an affair with his buddy from high school and divorced her.

Was thinking the same thing. Family Guy even had a bit about this I think. Exactly about what you mentioned with George McFly/Calvin Klein

Or even in the timeline where Howard Stark runs into Howard Potts who looks like an old version of his eventual son. Howard's a genius I'm sure he saw some coalition.

 

[Shuri]

You really shouldn't have to do this for a movie, book, or any other type of story.

Love these movies, but no way I'm wasting my time drawing charts to explain them. I'll just say the writing was sloppy and move on. But whatever makes them happy I guess.

 

[Detective Conan]

Funny I was just thinking about that. I disagree. DBZ sets up it's time travel rules very well. Endgame could've taken notes.
Trunks goes back in time and it creates an alternate reality. He doesn't know this because he thinks the timeline is a stable one. But he finds out that what he, Future Trunks, does in Timeline A doesn't affect Timeline B (Future Trunks time)
Which is why Trunks has to go back to his own "time" (Timeline B), defeat the Androids along with Cell all over again, the Earth is still decimated, and the Z fighters are still dead.

That's pretty tight storytelling as far as time travel goes.

Well I don’t know if there’s anything about my post to disagree with since all I pointed out was that the MCU and Dragon Ball have similar time travel rules in which a person from the future traveling to the past preventing the sequence of events from the happening in that reality still does not affect the present reality that the time traveler came from at all - it only cause parallel universes. Didn’t really imply that Dragon Ball did the same(quality wise or consistency wise) as Endgame. Just highlighting they work similarly.