Endgame Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

[Mutant 77]

The Endgame model reflects the Marvel comic book model anyway.
They also suggested this at the very end of "Deadpool 2", when Deadpool travels across the multiverse and stumbles upon the "branched" version of the X-Men original timeline (X-Men Origins; X-Men; X2; The Last Stand; Logan), still existing out there.
Deadpool interacts with Barakapool.

 

[Kanon]

Fact is, it ALSO seems that the "branching" happens only when a stone is removed; it's not caused by the mere presence of the time traveler. So it seems...


The scene of the Ancient One:

First she showed the timeline.
Then she showed the stones circling it to represent how they maintain the flow of time.
Then she showed that by removing a stone a timeline branches.
Then when she put it back again the branch dusted.
This perfectly does away with any timeline anomalies. Banner was just wrong. Time can be altered, but the stones maintain the timeline, making sure the future is not significantly altered. Thanos was threatening to use the stones to totally rewrite the timeline, so that thematically fits too. The stones make new realities. If they are kept together in the same timeline they will make sure destiny is maintained. No branching without stones being time shifted.

I think the Ancient One meant that the branch occurs when the stone is removed from where it's supposed to be (as the eye of Agamotto), not when it's removed from the timeline. The branch has to occur even without taking the stones out of the timeline, just by traveling and interfering (taking the scepter from Hydra, Loki gatting the Cube, etc)

The Ancient One means that the Eye of Agamotto belongs to the Sorcerer Supreme to stop extra dimensional forces at bay, not that the stones are essential to the flow of time (I think)

 

[Mutant 77]

I think the Ancient One meant that the branch occurs when the stone is removed from where it's supposed to be (as the eye of Agamotto), not when it's removed from the timeline. The branch has to occur even without taking the stones out of the timeline, just by traveling and interfering (taking the scepter from Hydra, Loki gatting the Cube, etc)

The Ancient One means that the Eye of Agamotto belongs to the Sorcerer Supreme to stop extra dimensional forces at bay, not that the stones are essential to the flow of time (I think)

Sorry, that's not what she meant IMHO.

 

[redhawk23]

That doesn’t make any sense. If you go back into the past, even just by being there it is creating a new timeline.

It's creating an alternate timeline that they don't live in.

 

[FunkMiller]

Of course. But they set up rules and then didn't follow them

I know people want this film to be perfect, but this point is true. The writing around the time travel isn’t great... but it really doesn’t damage the film. It’s still a brilliant movie.

 

[Iron_Stark]

Timelines

So Cap returned the stones to make sure the prime timeline (the one we’ve watched the last ten years) stays intact. But he also stays behind to grow old with Peggy.

So either he wiped out her husband that was mentioned in Winter Soldier, or that was secretly him. Which means he didn’t bother warning anyone about HYDRA running Shield or try to save Bucky earlier.

But past Thanos also travels to the future and is killed. So then there is no past Thanos to collect the stones and do the original snap, creating a paradox.

Anyone have any theories or do we just accept it as timey-wimey shenanigans?

Or he's a home wrecker and she ran off with him.

Or he married someone different.

I still think it's BS that they can wreck timelines and everyone is OK with it, but mention that they should go back and get last weeks version of Tony and Natasha and bring them forward, and everyone loses their minds.

 

[Mike Murdock]

There are two concepts that I had mixed up in theaters that I think I understand better now. The first is the fact that they can't alter their own pasts. The other is that there could be branching timelines.

The fact that they couldn't alter their own pasts had nothing to do with what happened in past events or whether they returned things to their proper place. The fact is they couldn't erase what had happened. That's why they had to bring the dead back to the future with them.

The other concept is branching timelines. The Infinity Stones had to be returned to the past, not to prevent their own timeline from being screwed up, but because they didn't want to screw over the other timelines. If they failed to return the Time Stone, Dormammu would have destroyed that timeline. If they failed to return the Scepter, there would be a timeline where the Vision and the Scarlet Witch were never "created." Under this theory, there would be a timeline where Loki escaped with the Space Stone (just not our timeline) and a timeline where Thanos just up and disappears before the events of the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Without Gamora, the Guardians of the Galaxy might never form, but it's hard to say specifically how that timeline ends up. Arguably, this could be some inspirations for the Marvel What Ifs.

Now how does old Cap fit in? Arguably, this is a contradiction in my argument. But I think the only way to reconcile it is to say that Cap didn't alter the timeline. He certainly wouldn't have altered his own past by going back in time. What that would mean is Cap always stayed in the past.

 

[Prettyricky]

I still don't buy how hulk explained time travel. If they want to get into different multiverses then get into it but with time travel in this film makes zero sense and eliminates a-lot of movies from phase 1.

You change anything in the past even slightly you are going to affect the future. Its just logical, this idea of plucking stones from past movies and not effecting anything as soon they comeback just raises too many questions

 

[samsnee]

This could have all been made clearer if old Steve made a comment about needing to go back to his own timeline after giving away the shield. Otherwise, I could buy nothing in the prime timeline got messed up since he returned the stones to their rightful place the second after they were taken.

 

[Hotwire]

The way I figured there are now three timelines. When the Avengers took each stone, they created a branch off of the original. Upon returning those stones, the branch was erased. However, Loki slipped away with the Tesseract, creating his own branch. This could be the basis for Loki's show.

Also, when Thanos and company used Nebula's device to jump into 2023, they also created their own branch. Since Thanos and Nebula both died instead or returning to their time, and since Gamora went missing, their branch cannot be erased. That means, there now an alternative timeline where, not only does Thanos never snap his fingers, the Infinity Stones don't even come together! Hell, in this timeline, the Guardians wouldn't come together either!

As for Cap, he simply slipped into his own timeline and rode it out. Careful not to really mess with anything.

 

[Hotwire]

I still don't buy how hulk explained time travel. If they want to get into different multiverses then get into it but with time travel in this film makes zero sense and eliminates a-lot of movies from phase 1.

You change anything in the past even slightly you are going to affect the future. Its just logical, this idea of plucking stones from past movies and not effecting anything as soon they comeback just raises too many questions

It's explained. It won't change the future, it will just create a branch in the timeline. The instant something is displaced, the new branch is created. Replacing the displaced "object" erases the branch.

 

[Prettyricky]

It's explained. It won't change the future, it will just create a branch in the timeline. The instant something is displaced, the new branch is created. Replacing the displaced "object" erases the branch.

Then thano still snaps his finger once the stones are put back yes?

 

[Hotwire]

Then thano still snaps his finger once the stones are put back yes?

Yes. And then the Avengers undo it.

 

[Hotwire]

Timelines

So Cap returned the stones to make sure the prime timeline (the one we’ve watched the last ten years) stays intact. But he also stays behind to grow old with Peggy.

So either he wiped out her husband that was mentioned in Winter Soldier, or that was secretly him. Which means he didn’t bother warning anyone about HYDRA running Shield or try to save Bucky earlier.

But past Thanos also travels to the future and is killed. So then there is no past Thanos to collect the stones and do the original snap, creating a paradox.

Anyone have any theories or do we just accept it as timey-wimey shenanigans?

See my post about 3 ahead of this one.

 

[Cretaceous Clay]

I have not read the whole thread, so forgive me if this has been talked about here already. Also, I have only seen the movie once so far so I might have missed something, but here is my take on the time travel stuff:

I think there is only one timeline.
Ancient one said that the stones actually created the flow of time, and if one was removed it would branch into a new timeline that was unprotected. But then Bruce said that by returning the stones it would heal the timeline and bring it back into alignment. I took this to mean that the stones themselves would bring the timelines back together, not so much that returning them would undo the fact that they took them.

If I'm right then the power of the stones would make it so that whatever you did in the past was what was always done.

I'm not sure how the fact that Loki escapes or Thanos jumping forward and gets dusted gels with this, but these are reality warping magic space rocks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe the new Loki show will end with his recapture, thus restoring that timeline. The "Hail Hydra" moment could be attributed to Loki, so Sitwell and company don't think cap knows. And past Cap got hit by the scepter so probably just forgot what future Cap said about Bucky.

The 2014 jump is harder to hand-wave away and my only idea on how that would line back up would be if when Tony dusted him and his army he reset them back in 2014 instead of just erasing them. That doesn't seem like something Tony would do, but maybe the stones did in spite of him? The stones are supposed to be somewhat sentient, especially the mind and soul stones, after all.

Maybe the stones are working outside of time, so when Thanos' snapped and dusted half the population, and Hulk snapped them back, that was more or less simultaneous. Like the snaps worked together to move that half from 2018 to 2023. Seems a bit of a stretch, but who knows.

EDIT: punctuation

 

[Dark Raven]

This may have been discussed here already but I haven't gone back to read all the pages of this thread.

Were all of Peter's friends and classmates snapped out of existence? Because if not, then shouldn't some be older now in Far From Home? Are they all just resuming school from where they last left off?

Also, if Cap went back to live in the 40s or maybe the 70s, why didn't he warn anyone about the coming threat of Thanos so they could avoid it?

 

[Cretaceous Clay]

Were all of Peter's friends and classmates snapped out of existence? Because if not, then shouldn't some be older now in Far From Home? Are they all just resuming school from where they last left off?

Half, I would assume. My guess is most of his supporting cast was, and that it will be a plot point in Far From Home.

Also, if Cap went back to live in the 40s or maybe the 70s, why didn't he warn anyone about the coming threat of Thanos so they could avoid it?

You cannot change the past. Anything that he did was already done, or else he would not be able to come back in time to do it.

 

[Dark Raven]

Half, I would assume. My guess is most of his supporting cast was, and that it will be a plot point in Far From Home.


You cannot change the past. Anything that he did was already done, or else he would not be able to come back in time to do it.

They explained though that if you go to the past and live through that, it becomes your future. So Cap wouldn't be changing his past. First, he didn't have a past from 1945 to 2012 because he was frozen in ice so he's never experienced any of these events. And second, some events such as the Gulf War or Vietnam War etc would all be future events for him unfolding for the first time as he lives through those decades. He could change some of these.

 

[JtheDreamer]

They explained though that if you go to the past and live through that, it becomes your future. So Cap wouldn't be changing his past. First, he didn't have a past from 1945 to 2012 because he was frozen in ice so he's never experienced any of these events. And second, some events such as the Gulf War or Vietnam War etc would all be future events for him unfolding for the first time as he lives through those decades. He could change some of these.

Being in suspended animation is still a "past".

 

[Cretaceous Clay]

They explained though that if you go to the past and live through that, it becomes your future. So Cap wouldn't be changing his past. First, he didn't have a past from 1945 to 2012 because he was frozen in ice so he's never experienced any of these events. And second, some events such as the Gulf War or Vietnam War etc would all be future events for him unfolding for the first time as he lives through those decades. He could change some of these.

I took that to mean it would be his personal future, not necessarily a "new" future. From the conversation between the ancient one and Bruce I am assuming the stones keep the timeline from splitting and returning the stones will somehow "heal" any damage done in retrieving them.

I'm seeing it again tomorrow, so I'll see if that still makes sense to me after. It might just be my personal take on it.

 

[MadVillainy]

I know people want this film to be perfect, but this point is true. The writing around the time travel isn’t great... but it really doesn’t damage the film. It’s still a brilliant movie.

Exactly. It's still a good movie, but they didn't write some of it well.

I hate this thinking of: If I like it so no flaws matter and/or it has no flaws.

You can still enjoy something and recognize it's flaws

 

[Primal Slayer]

Look...I loved this film and yes the time travel was confusing by the end of it (Thanos no longer exists past A1, Gamora is absent, Peggy has a new husband) but imma try not to think about that.

 

[writer0327]

So this is how I understand this timeline thing.

As long as they return the stones to the exact time that they took them, its like those stones never left and the timeline remains essentially unchanged.

For instance (this is a silly, simple example) I come home from a trip to the store where I bought a gallon of milk for a bowl of cereal I plan to eat later on. I place the milk in the fridge, then go upstairs to shower. "Future-Me" goes back in time and takes the milk from the fridge that he knows is there, returns to the future and drinks it. "Present-Me" comes downstairs for the cereal a few minutes later, opens the fridge and there's no milk. So now I have to make another trip to the store to buy another gallon of milk. This has created a new time line.

However if "Future-Me" drinks the milk, then goes to his store in his time and buys another gallon, and returns to the past and replaces it at the exact same time he took the milk, "Present-Me" is none the wiser. I will go to the fridge, open the gallon of milk, and enjoy my bowl of cereal like I had intended when I bought it, like nothing ever happened. Therefore nothing has been altered in my time line.

 

[gohei_]

Also, if Cap went back to live in the 40s or maybe the 70s, why didn't he warn anyone about the coming threat of Thanos so they could avoid it?

How do you Know he didn't? We never see his future so it's possible he makes a bunch of changes.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

How do you Know he didn't? We never see his future so it's possible he makes a bunch of changes.

That's the problem though... He still ends up simply living until today. So he didn't do anything in the "prime" timeline of the film itself... Which presents it's own issues since they said they couldn't change the past for themselves. So there shouldn't have been an old Steve that Bucky and Sam could have met in the first place under those circumstances.