Endgame Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

[MagicalMe]

If this is accurate, then it just takes me back to my original thought: the Russos should have done a better job conveying that old Cap had arrived from an alternate timeline.

I think this is a fair criticism. Arguably, the easiest way to do this would be to have old Steve appear on the pad at the moment he was supposed to return and then tell his story. The issue I see with this is that earlier in the film, something like this happens to Scott but it's a sign that something went wrong so I feel like if they'd gone this way many in the audience would be confused and/or would think it was a joke.

What they did was, I think, more artful but, yeah, it does give the impression that he lived with Peggy in the Prime Timeline and that's been confusing people too.

Bruce says that Steve missed his exit while traveling back. That could just mean that Steve actually came back a lot earlier, while The machine was unattended, or even before The big battle. Or, The Russos just simply liked it better having him just appear there, without too much thought of exactly how he came back.

This sounds good. If we believe that people can only travel back to the Prime Timeline using the pad, he could have arrived, like, the night before, when nobody was looking, then gone and hid behind a tree.

(For some reason, I'm very attached to the idea of Steve hiding behind things and popping out at just the right moment.)

I posted this before but to me, it's less about not creating an alternate timeline so much as not dooming an alternate timeline to a world without their Infinity Stone.

Yes, I'd wholeheartedly agree with this.

This whole conversation between Banner and The Ancient One is throwing people a lot. When they talk about erasing a timeline I think what they mean is that they're erasing "the problem with a timeline not having all six Stones". None of the timelines can just be erased nor can they be reconciled with the Prime Timeline where events played out quite differently.

 

[samsnee]

But in that same conversation, when Banner puts back the stone, we literally see the black branch timeline being erased.

 

[MagicalMe]

But in that same conversation, when Banner puts back the stone, we literally see the black branch timeline being erased.

Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right.

All I can say is that this seems to conflict with the rules of time travel established earlier on in the film.

My attempt at an explanation here is that it's a bit like when you're taught something in physics or whatever and then, further on in your education, you get taught that the thing you learned before was basically wrong but easier to understand and now you get taught some more complex but also more accurate. The Banner - Ancient One conversation seems like it was designed to simplify an idea for the audience but at the expense of accuracy.

Maybe another good question for the writers to answer so we can get a better sense of what they intended.

 

[Kris]

Bruce says that Steve missed his exit while traveling back. That could just mean that Steve actually came back a lot earlier, while The machine was unattended, or even before The big battle. Or, The Russos just simply liked it better having him just appear there, without too much thought of exactly how he came back.

Regarding Loke, he is still on the loose with The tesseract, because that is yet another different timeline. People have mentioned that maybe the Loke tv show Will be about that version of Loke.

He might not get The tesseract in Steves new timeline but that other timeline has already been created.

Read up on it, Cap lives in an alternate reality with Peggy, likely lives past the point where in the other reality cap went back at the end. He then travels back in time to the main timeline negating the need for the machine.

 

[Boy Scout]

Doesn't it let you translate it? Anyway here's it:

Q: Did Captain America's action at the end affect the timeline? Does that mean there was a time where two CA existed in a same universe?

A: To me, CA's action in the end wasn't the fact he wanted to change anything, it's more like me has made a choice. He chose to go back to past and lived with the one he loved for the rest of his life. The time travel in this movie created an alternate reality. He lived a completely different life in that world. We don't know how exactly his life turned out, but I'd like to believe he still helped many others when they were needed in that world. Yes, there were two CA in that reality, it's just like what Hulk said, what happened in the past has already happened. If you go back to past, you simply created a new reality. The characters in this movie created new timeline when they went back to the past, but it had no effect to the prime universe. What happened in the past 22 movies was still canon.

Q: EG's plot, is it a parallel universe or a closed time loop?

A: Nope, not a time loop. Both Ancinet One and Hulk were right. You can't change the future by simply going back to past. But it's possible to create a different alternate future. It's not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam.

This...doesn’t really make sense.

 

[MagicalMe]

This...doesn’t really make sense.

Which part doesn't make sense to you?

 

[Boy Scout]

Which part doesn't make sense to you?

Whoops, sorry, I actually read that wrong. I thought they claimed that Steve created an alternate reality that was somehow also the prime reality we all know as the MCU.

But if I’m remembering the rules of time travel they established correctly (and I’ll admit to needing to re-read some of that information over to support that claim, which I don’t have time to do right now), I think that him being able to create that reality in the first place violates some of the rules of time travel they tried to establish.

 

[Jamiestarr]

Forgive me if this has already been answered/covered. I apologize if this is an obvious answer...

Gamora was pulled from the timeline yet her soul stone sacrifice still happened with no effect on Thanos and the snap. Using this example, why wouldn't time traveling Cap go back to before Black Widow and Tony Stark died and pull them forward to the future/present.

 

[MagicalMe]

Whoops, sorry, I actually read that wrong. I thought they claimed that Steve created an alternate reality that was somehow also the prime reality we all know as the MCU.

But if I’m remembering the rules of time travel they established correctly (and I’ll admit to needing to re-read some of that information over to support that claim, which I don’t have time to do right now), I think that him being able to create that reality in the first place violates some of the rules of time travel they tried to establish.

I think that creating this new timeline (a new reality) is essentially as simple as travelling back in time via the Quantum Realm so with the tech designed by Stark and Pym they can do it all the livelong day.

Forgive me if this has already been answered/covered. I apologize if this is an obvious answer...

Gamora was pulled from the timeline yet her soul stone sacrifice still happened with no effect on Thanos and the snap. Using this example, why wouldn't time traveling Cap go back to before Black Widow and Tony Stark died and pull them forward to the future/present.

Sure, he could do that but then the people from that alternate timeline would be without their Nat and Tony and it wouldn't change the fact that they both died in the Prime Timeline.

Edit: The difference with Gamora, I suppose, is that she had nothing in her timeline to go back for. All her allies/"family" had died so she may continue life in the Prime where she could even have a life with Nebula and the other Guardians.

 

[Jamiestarr]

I think that creating this new timeline (a new reality) is essentially as simple as travelling back in time via the Quantum Realm so with the tech designed by Stark and Pym they can do it all the livelong day.



Sure, he could do that but then the people from that alternate timeline would be without their Nat and Tony and it wouldn't change the fact that they both died in the Prime Timeline.

Edit: The difference with Gamora, I suppose, is that she had nothing in her timeline to go back for. All her allies/"family" had died so she may continue life in the Prime where she could even have a life with Nebula and the other Guardians.

Won't the people from that alternate timeline be without Tony and Nat anyway? I guess it's the fact that you are dooming that alt timeline to death at the hands of Thanos?

 

[Kris]

I think this is a fair criticism. Arguably, the easiest way to do this would be to have old Steve appear on the pad at the moment he was supposed to return and then tell his story. The issue I see with this is that earlier in the film, something like this happens to Scott but it's a sign that something went wrong so I feel like if they'd gone this way many in the audience would be confused and/or would think it was a joke.

What they did was, I think, more artful but, yeah, it does give the impression that he lived with Peggy in the Prime Timeline and that's been confusing people too.



This sounds good. If we believe that people can only travel back to the Prime Timeline using the pad, he could have arrived, like, the night before, when nobody was looking, then gone and hid behind a tree.

(For some reason, I'm very attached to the idea of Steve hiding behind things and popping out at just the right moment.)



Yes, I'd wholeheartedly agree with this.

This whole conversation between Banner and The Ancient One is throwing people a lot. When they talk about erasing a timeline I think what they mean is that they're erasing "the problem with a timeline not having all six Stones". None of the timelines can just be erased nor can they be reconciled with the Prime Timeline where events played out quite differently.

If Steve travelled to the night before he would’ve needed the machine. A more sound theory is that old man cap lives past the point where normal cap goes back and then uses the gps to travel back. That way he can appear where he wants without a machine....park bench!

I also now get that by Steve choosing to live a life with Peggy he creates a new reality, the coordinates on the gps will put him back to the main reality, they can’t jump to different realities by when he travels back he will be in the one we watched.

 

[Silvermoon]

Forgive me if this has already been answered/covered. I apologize if this is an obvious answer...

Gamora was pulled from the timeline yet her soul stone sacrifice still happened with no effect on Thanos and the snap. Using this example, why wouldn't time traveling Cap go back to before Black Widow and Tony Stark died and pull them forward to the future/present.

Because going back in the prime timeline and pulling them even from a week or two earlier, would create another branching timeline and that timeline would then be down 2 members of the Avengers while trying to undo Thanos snap in that alternate timeline... if they don't have Nat or Tony, then that alternate timeline is doomed to not succeed in their fight against Thanos (and again, think about the reason why Hulk wanted to return the Infinity Stones from the point they were stolen, it wasn't to preserve the history of the Prime timeline... that's already history, it already happened, no changing it. It was to not screw over the branching timelines they knew would be created by taking the stones from the past... so same thing with Tony and Nat, as much as they love them - they know that pulling them out of the past would screw over the resulting alternate timeline created. That's not something they would want to happen)

With Gamora, why it's not as bad (at least) is that Thanos was pulled from her original timeline as well (and subsquently dusted) so that alternate timeline that branched off from 2014 with the disappearance of Thanos et. all is in a bit of a better situation since they don't have to worry about a Mad Titan trying to gather all the infinity stones.

 

[MagicalMe]

Won't the people from that alternate timeline be without Tony and Nat anyway? I guess it's the fact that you are dooming that alt timeline to death at the hands of Thanos?

Very good point.

If you could find someone in the past who died an "unecessary" death then you could go to them before they met their end and yank them to a different timeline or otherwise intervene and save them but Nat and Tony both made crucial contributions with their final acts so to save them would be, as you say, to doom others.

 

[Jamiestarr]

Very good point.

If you could find someone in the past who died an "unecessary" death then you could go to them before they met their end and yank them to a different timeline or otherwise intervene and save them but Nat and Tony both made crucial contributions with their final acts so to save them would be, as you say, to doom others.

Eh, it's probably just me, but I'd rather have Tony Stark and Nat be alive and half the universe be wiped out.

 

[Donner]

So what about the part where one of them said there are two CAs in that reality?

Are they confused themselves?

Edit: an English interview
'Avengers Endgame' directors answer Captain America mystery

I don't like the idea of so many alternate timelines and I bet that someday they will confirm that Cap was Peggy's secret husband. And if so, that makes this alternate reality crap with Steve wrong.

 

[MagicalMe]

So what about the part where one of them said there are two CAs in that reality?

Are they confused themselves?

One of those Caps would be in the ice.

 

[Donner]

One of those Caps would be in the ice.

This is why an alternate reality is dumb. So Steve makes a separate timeline by going back in time and he still has to live under cover because there is already a Steve in the ice? Why not just make it so that he's still in the main timeline and has to live under cover? This is better because he wouldn't change anything knowing that it could create a paradox and he could just live his life as a normal guy.

It annoys me because it gets confusing. I know the comics have the multiverse and they hop back and forth between them, but no one has done that in the movies. So now they're establishing that all of these timelines were created when the Avengers went back in time. But why? Unless the TV show for Loki is specifically about him and the tesseract, they created these timelines for no reason.

Much like Adam Warlock at the end of Guardians 2.

 

[MagicalMe]

This is why an alternate reality is dumb. So Steve makes a separate timeline by going back in time and he still has to live under cover because there is already a Steve in the ice? Why not just make it so that he's still in the main timeline and has to live under cover? This is better because he wouldn't change anything knowing that it could create a paradox and he could just live his life as a normal guy.

It annoys me because it gets confusing. I know the comics have the multiverse and they hop back and forth between them, but no one has done that in the movies. So now they're establishing that all of these timelines were created when the Avengers went back in time. But why? Unless the TV show for Loki is specifically about him and the tesseract, they created these timelines for no reason.

Much like Adam Warlock at the end of Guardians 2.

Well, we don't know what Steve does in the past. It could well be that he informs Peggy about Hydra at the very least. He can change things in a positive way. I don't believe he has to live in the basement.

I am also not a huge fan of the idea of a multiverse where any silly thing can happen and we lose touch with the characters we've gotten to know so hopefully they don't go too far down that rabbit hole. Still, some stories (you mentioned Loki as an example) could be interesting as long as they're kind of their own thing.

 

[Donner]

True. Ah I guess I concede the multiple timelines point. Boo. I wish it was only one. Keeps things neat. Oh well.

 

[Donner]

They also don't explain how Steve could have possibly jumped to another dimension to give Sam the shield.

“Interesting question, right?” Joe said. “Maybe there’s a story there. There’s a lot of layers built into this movie and we spent three years thinking through it, so it’s fun to talk about it and hopefully fill in holes for people so they understand what we’re thinking.”

I feel like if they never actually explain this, it'll be really frustrating for fans. Of all the people who could travel between the multiverse, Cap doesn't strike me as the type. Tony or Banner or the F4 sure, but not Cap.

 

[Silvermoon]

They also don't explain how Steve could have possibly jumped to another dimension to give Sam the shield.



I feel like if they never actually explain this, it'll be really frustrating for fans. Of all the people who could travel between the multiverse, Cap doesn't strike me as the type. Tony or Banner or the F4 sure, but not Cap.

If Cap still had his TimeGPS (which he likely was sure to hold onto), that links to the prime timeline... think of it as a tether. So it's likely that was used in some way in getting oldCap back to his original timeline. Whether he used that to jump back to Prime 2023 ala how he and Tony went from 2012 New York City to 1970 New Jersey (no platform needed during that jump, that could explain why he didn't end up on the platform after he 'missed his window'), or else he enlisted the help of the alternate timeline's great minds (whether Howard, or Hank Pym, or even the alternate timeline's Tony Stark) to use the timeline that the GPS device was linked to (the prime timeline) as a guide point in sending him back.

 

[djsunyc]

tony's line of "time travel fights back" - no doubt it's going to introduce kang at some point. there has to be ramifications for the time travel shenanigans.

 

[MagicalMe]

tony's line of "time travel fights back" - no doubt it's going to introduce kang at some point. there has to be ramifications for the time travel shenanigans.

It is a signal to all the times that the Earth is ready for a higher form of war.

 

[Spider-Fan]

tony's line of "time travel fights back" - no doubt it's going to introduce kang at some point. there has to be ramifications for the time travel shenanigans.

I agree that the council of Kangs should come into the MCU given the events of Endgame, but at the same time, they would not be fighting the ones actually responsible for toying with the time stream. So it makes that sort of less personal and thus it loses a bit of steam.

 

[WBwins]

Edit: an English interview
'Avengers Endgame' directors answer Captain America mystery

So they confirmed Alternate realities.Finally should clear it up for everyone.

This is why an alternate reality is dumb. So Steve makes a separate timeline by going back in time and he still has to live under cover because there is already a Steve in the ice? Why not just make it so that he's still in the main timeline and has to live under cover? This is better because he wouldn't change anything knowing that it could create a paradox and he could just live his life as a normal guy.


Muc.

Having Steve live undercover in the Timeline would mess with the Time travel rules already established. It also is extremely hard to explain how Old steve has been undercover all this while without causing continuity questions

So now they're establishing that all of these timelines were created when the Avengers went back in time. But why? Unless the TV show for Loki is specifically about him and the tesseract, they created these timelines for no reason.

Much like Adam Warlock at the end of Guardians 2.

They Chose to use the Alternate Realities type Time Travel. The reasons should be obvious once you put on a Writers Hat.

1.This type of Type travel allows the Characters to mess freely with the Timeline without it having consequences on the present. That gave them freedom with Endgame plot

2.This gives them an excuse to create an alternate reality where Loki is alive and they can ignore MCU continuity for TV Show.

3.Alternate realities open the door for some very interesting Futures stories with interesting characters. Characters like Kang the Conqueror, Living Tribunal etc


Side note: Adam Warlock will be in Guardians 3.