Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

[Marvin]

He can't successfuly cannonball Faora out of IHOP ..... He can also ragdoll punch him over miles worth of distances while in the air.

Yes,
it's pretty obvious he caught Zod off guard at the farm. It's just as obvious that he isn't able to catch Faora off guard in the ihop cause she's actually ready for him and a more skilled fighter.
I assume you can see how one is easier than the other no?

Both of whom btw, had spent far less time in the presence of the Earth's yellow sun than Supes.

They don't get their speed and strength from the sun in this movie.
Notice how much powers the evil guys have before superman breaks their masks and exposes them to everything? At which point they get more powers that they can't control...
What did you think was happening there? I've been told it's pretty inconsistent that's what I get from it.

And for goodness sake you are witnessing faora beat up superman with your own eyes, how many more times are you going to deny that Faora and Zod have a skill advantage over Superman?

 

[Marvin]

Not speaking for the audience is one thing, but having a generally condescending tone insinuates that you know better than the person you're responding to.

Don't get me wrong, I can be guilty of that plenty of times too, but then hiding behind semantics and internet morality can become a little difficult to pull off. Truth is, everyone's got differing opinions on the film. Naturally, people think their own opinion is more in line with the truth than that of others. It's cool.

The key is to respect the existence of that opinion instead of devaluing it/throwing hyperbole at it/mocking it with sarcasm/ignoring the post and responding with 'MOS is the Superman film I've been waiting for!'

Not saying that you don't tend to do that, but finding a constructive conversation that doesn't devolve into arguments over technicalities and morality is pretty hard around here. Look, even I'm chipping in.

Tl;dr is this film's been great for encouraging discussion but not only are the topics going around in circles but it's resulting in posts like these. Time to drop it and move on to looking forward to the Wolverine?

I know I am.

Never said I'm not capable of being condescending, or that I personally have any feelings towards it. I suppose it's best to avoid.

The Semantics were pulled out to convey that I wasn't in fact being hypocritical as I was accused of being, but rather the opposite.

If you think a scene doesn't work, I personally prefer the criticism to be phrased that way. It's just a thing my teacher used to be me about. There are real instances where "scenes don't work" and there are alot of instances where scenes "don't work for me" Just makes it easier to address the argument.

I made it known that, that has always stood out to me. This other matter of putting groups of people into boxes is something else I never said two words about yet I was being accused of hypocrisy. Sorry but I just don't see it. As for my condescending tone, yes, it happens. I often apologize if asked to, though I tend to give back what I get.

As for moving on, I have plenty of free time at the moment and enjoy digesting this film with the rest of you. I personally have no thoughts on and even less interest in Wolverine at the moment. What's more, I have a hard time sleeping with the thought that people are out here hating a film they might not understand. What was I supposed to do, let them go on doing so? Maybe?
lol.

And you are right, people do tend to think their opinion is more in line with the truth, I notice you haven't been missing a moment to classify what type of posters you have encountering. Are there really more hyperbolic enthusiasts than the opposite on here or are you overstating and simplifying?
This is relation to your list of the 8 posters types.
From my perspective I would think the list is the exact opposite. But that's what happens when we glorify our own experience. In other words I see just as much crap as you seem to be seeing, the best thing to do is try and understand each other and perhaps find common ground. You may have noticed I try to ask as many questions about why things are the way they are.

I watched the red letter media review...Safe to say I think it was a joke. Even with it's occasional bouts of value and honest analysis, I think it's hypocritical hyperbolic non sense(I've seen a few of these). Unlike watching that vid, at least here I can try and understand this these and rebut these criticisms in real time. Pretty enjoyable and enlightening as a filmmaker.

 

[BlueLantern]

That's our common ground, Marv. Looking at things from a relatively sensible perspective. I always look at things without saying they should be fact. It's my opinion or your opinion for example. It's never stated truths. It can't be unless it's blatantly obvious and even then I'll call discretion and not cry 'fact!'

The hyperbolic folk are there. I won't namecall, but I've definitely experienced them. Then there's the 'BEST COMIC BOOK FILM EVER MADE!' or 'THE SUPERMAN FILM I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!' guys. I don't claim to say they're wrong or anything, but let's be honest, those two opinions will change when the next comic book film comes out and when the next Superman film comes out.

The Red Letter review was an analogy for the film. An exercise in excess. Like you said, most of the notes the review hits are true in my eyes, but they do it in such a demeaning and over the top way that the point gets saturated by the sarcasm and ridicule.

Regarding my posters post, yeah, I should've included the hyperbolic detractors. However, I'll be honest and say I've seen very few. Though granted, some of the detractors are rehashing the same points as are the defenders. It's just the latter seem more desperate in their defense. Not you, but by and large, a lot of folk are.

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm an aspiring writer of sorts, but I'll be honest and say that none of the films coming out nowadays are inspiring me. They're more serving as a lesson of what not do than what to do.

 

[Marvin]

You maybe encountering more enthusiasts because of the section of the forum you're on. It takes a particular kind of person to hang around a film section that doesn't like said film. For better or worse.
I don't doubt though that this film experience could be the cbm they have been waiting for. I feel the same way about blade personally(same RT score I think), and I don't care how many critics try and tell me I don't. People genuinely love and hate what they like, that's the beauty of art. It's the hows and whys that can be postulated and learned from.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether it be on modern art or music. These days, it's a matter of how self importantly you can phrase it if you want to be called a critic. That's my opinion on alot of these people that toss up videos on "youtube" with the title review in it.
Red Letter deconstructed the prequels in a pretty thorough manner, this wasn't that. Yes they hit on a few points worth discussing(perhaps with an opposing force the way siskel&ebert used to every now and then), but a lot of that was just comparison to what they think it should be and complaining without always explaining. I honestly wouldn't say two words about it if they really were "experimenting" in excess, but what I see is them do this to every film they don't like whilst not doing it with every film they do. I'd call that an experiment in bs.

Prime example, all this talk about why superhero fights have to be so brutal in this movie, brutal and loud and dire, and how superman2 had a charm about it's ending. Then they imply that it says something about society and the way producers see us. Explosions and bam bam...Not but a month ago they gave IM3 a glowing review, but what about that bombastic approach to conflict resolution they were so bent on eloquently dismantling? I find that disingenuous to a fault.
It just reeks of agenda to me and it's all the more evident when they mention the producers, and when people have a venue that big to express themselves I'd like to see it handled with more responsibility. It does them no favors with people like me, I walk away thinking they would have given the film a better review if Cavil had the cowlick(by the sound of that one guy). And I don't think they want that. More analysis(like in his earlier work) and less drunken fanboyisms...
I wasn't a fan of the STID rantings as well. It seems any modern remake probably doesn't stand a good chance with them.

 

[Marvin]

I personally think having the towel cape scene at the end is really interesting and serves it's purpose fantastically, however all those people that would argue the flash backs would have more emotional impact had it been a linear story like the original should then to argue that scene to be in the 1st act and before Jon Kent sacrifices himself. This entire film begs this sort of question in it's approach to the origins paradigm. Depends what you want out of such a story, not what's better.
What are we left with. Opinions, nothing more.

I'll tell you what I know, ASM absolutely knocked it out of the park for me. Yet all I ever heard from the many detractors, on top of some analysis, was that it was unnecessary, redundant, boring..and of course, not as good as the first time they saw it.

I for one commend a the unconventional styles of MoS' narrative on that reason alone.
The alternative would have no doubt opened the flood gates for that ASM stuff to be sure.

 

[DChero]

Y'know until you calm down and write legible posts it's all going to look like this.

I'm not sure that we need to be offensive about this.

Did people miss Superman saving the soldiers in Smallville? I feel like that perfectly demonstrated that he was saving lives every chance that he had.

 

[SuperFerret]

Those buildings were mostly empty.

 

[Vid Electricz]

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm an aspiring writer of sorts, but I'll be honest and say that none of the films coming out nowadays are inspiring me. They're more serving as a lesson of what not do than what to do.

NONE of the films? Or none of the superhero films?

There are TONS of wonderfully written,directed,acted,etc...films released every year. They may not feature dudes in unitards beating each other up, but they're inspiring nonetheless.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Those buildings were mostly empty.

But the streets below weren't! *gulp*

 

[SuperFerret]

No, they were too.

 

[Bruce Malone]

Alright here's a question i have, when it came time to destroy the world engines why did superman decide to destroy the engine in the indian ocean first instead of taking out the metropolis one?

 

[sf2]

Alright here's a question i have, when it came time to destroy the world engines why did superman decide to destroy the engine in the indian ocean first instead of taking out the metropolis one?

pls consider titanic amount of the complaints and bashing he would get if he went for the metropolis one. he needed to destroy the engine but buildings were falling, people were crying for help...

in the end... they would say... stupid writing... Goyer is super terrible!!!

 

[Rev]

Alright here's a question i have, when it came time to destroy the world engines why did superman decide to destroy the engine in the indian ocean first instead of taking out the metropolis one?

Zod initiated the World Engine which then made his ship slave or subject to what it was doing in terra forming the earth. As long as it continued unchecked, the gravity beam over Metropolis would have grown more powerful, possibly wiping out not only Metropolis but earth as well. In fact the military could not make any in roads until Superman disabled the World engine. He tells the General and Lois why he has to take out the engine first.

 

[BlueLantern]

NONE of the films? Or none of the superhero films?

There are TONS of wonderfully written,directed,acted,etc...films released every year. They may not feature dudes in unitards beating each other up, but they're inspiring nonetheless.

The 'the' was meant to be 'these' and I got lazy in going back and editing.

Yeah, there's plenty of films to inspire me out there but the superhero ones definitely aren't. On the whole they're just rehashing the same plots with different heroes.

Marv, regarding me sticking around despite 'not liking the film'. Again, I've said countless times I liked the film but disliked the action elements since they had no emotional stakes, no variety besides location/dramatis personae and most importantly just felt contrived to the point of being nauseating.

Furthermore, I've actually begun to pull back from posting since I've said my bit. There's only new viewers coming and saying their bit. I'm not interested in discussing the same topics again and again.

 

[robot]

I watched it for the second time and caught a lot of things i didn't before..

Actually, for those of you who thinks:

1. Superman didn't 'save people'
2. Superman caused more damaged than saving people

... you need to re-watch it...

At my second viewing, i purposely looked closely at what really happened at the entire movie... you'll see the 'saving people' theme all over the place... starting with the bus, to the oil rig, to surrendering to zod because he thought that would have a small chance of saving the planet, to then fighting off zod when he realized what zod intended... he's done everything he could in that frantic pace of battles, taking on enemies on all fronts...

and as for 'destroying buildings and killing people in-advertently'.. in reality, 95% of all damage were done by the world engine... the metropolis destruction is because of the terraforming... i looked closely at all the fights, and they only topple at most a building or two, and maybe scratches the surfaces of buildings/streets/walls, etc... and in all those circumstances, i think they basically avoided killing anyone...

The only person he killed was zod, and that was i think because he didn't have a choice, plus, i think zod actually wanted to die by cop... he had no reason to use his heat rays on those people, except to force superman's hand to kill him... it's the equivalent of pulling out a gun and aiming it at the police...

 

[robot]

Plus another BIG controversy...

The Letting his Father die...

I re-watched it with many friends... who were watching it for the first time.. almost to a person, they all thought that was just plain ol stupid if anything...

Some fan who 'see no wrong' in the movie will try to rationalize that scene... i know goyer wanted to send the message of how important it was for him to hide his identity.. and i can even undertand why his father would sacrifice himself for his son.. because tha'ts a father's job... but, for the son not to save his father, that's just bad writing.. because no one i know of would ever do something like that.. it's just NOT reasonable...

Now, those who are trying to rationalize that scene have said that 'not hiding his identity' would result in life/death situations... but, think about this for a second.. he didn't hide his identity when he saved those bus-load of children,.. and he was out in plain sight when he saved all those oil riggers... so, he didn't really follow his father's word.. but the only time he did was when he had to save his father.. make any sense to anyone here??? His identity is already blown wide open, and nothing bad has happened to him, or his mom, or whatever...

all in all.. that was the only scene i think was total disaster for me and a lot of my friends and i think a lot of people too.. (I believe i have seen lots of reviews online about this exact same issue)... this is all my opinion (I have to say this before someone here attacks me again)...

 

[sf2]

I can only say the thing happen too fast.
His father stopped him. He hesitated. The next second his father was gone.
Maybe it would teach him dont be hesitate to save life next time.

So do u like the movie more?

 

[robot]

I can only say the thing happen too fast.
His father stopped him. He hesitated. The next second his father was gone.
Maybe it would teach him dont be hesitate to save life next time.

So do u like the movie more?

It was a whole minute.. at the speed he is capable of, he could have saved dozens of people... he could have been at his father's side in the blink of an eye...

also, something that everyone who i went to brought up and totally agreed upon is, why in the world did he not just go save the damn dog himself??? what's the downside to that??? he could have saved the dog, get blown away (on purpose) and then later they 'miraculously' found him alive.. like i said, goyer isn't known for his logic...

Edit: Yes, I loved it even more.. because the movie slowed down for me and i was able to notice more things.. for an example, I now know why he was at the artic with the exploration teams... initially i was wondering how he knew about the ship.. but remember, the restaurant when he was a waiter? there were a bunch of officers talking about their discovery of an un-usual ship or something..... i completely missed that first time out

 

[sf2]

It was a whole minute.. at the speed he is capable of, he could have saved dozens of people... he could have been at his father's side in the blink of an eye...

also, something that everyone who i went to brought up and totally agreed upon is, why in the world did he not just go save the damn dog himself??? what's the downside to that??? he could have saved the dog, get blown away (on purpose) and then later they 'miraculously' found him alive.. like i said, goyer isn't known for his logic...

Edit: Yes, I loved it even more.. because the movie slowed down for me and i was able to notice more things.. for an example, I now know why he was at the artic with the exploration teams... initially i was wondering how he knew about the ship.. but remember, the restaurant when he was a waiter? there were a bunch of officers talking about their discovery of an un-usual ship or something..... i completely missed that first time out

because at the begining, he, as well as his father, thought his father would manage to run away. but when he knew that his father might not, he wanted to help..., his father stopped him... he hesitated... then everything had became too late...

 

[robot]

because at the begining, he, as well as his father, thought his father would manage to run away. but when he knew that his father might not, he wanted to help..., his father stopped him... he hesitated... then everything had became too late...

I guess you could interpret it that way...

I don't think that's how goyer interpreted it though.. the entire scene is his way of punching home how he sacrificed his father or believed his father's 'hide at all cost message'... remember, even when he retold the story to lois? he basically said why he did it... not because he couldn't have... but he believed his father.. but if that were the case, then you're stuck with the illogic that he had no problem going against his father's wishes at least twice already, in the school bus and the oil rig...

so, no matter how one tries to justify the scene, it just doesn't work for me... it's too sloppy.. i think he could have made the message clear another way...

 

[sf2]

I guess you could interpret it that way...

I don't think that's how goyer interpreted it though.. the entire scene is his way of punching home how he sacrificed his father or believed his father's 'hide at all cost message'... remember, even when he retold the story to lois? he basically said why he did it... not because he couldn't have... but he believed his father.. but if that were the case, then you're stuck with the illogic that he had no problem going against his father's wishes at least twice already, in the school bus and the oil rig...

so, no matter how one tries to justify the scene, it just doesn't work for me... it's too sloppy.. i think he could have made the message clear another way...

well, no doubt the writer wanted him dead.

like i said before, i wish Clark would emotional break down in front of Lois when he talked about his father's death. he should have blamed himself for not saving his father and being too selfish and too afraid. then to see Lois consoled him and there is where the affection grows.

 

[robot]

well, no doubt the writer wanted him dead.

like i said before, i wish Clark would emotional break down in front of Lois when he talked about his father's death. he should have blamed himself for not saving his father and being too selfish and too afraid. then to see Lois consoled him and there is where the affection grows.

YES!!! That's a great idea indeed.. There are so much they can do to improve each of the scenes... that's the biggest problem with this movie that i think 90% of the viewers agreed on whether they hated the movie or they loved it.. and that's terrible story telling/character building/scene developing...

That's why i hope they have a 3 hour version in blu-ray where they fix all the scenes or enchance them...

 

[sf2]

YES!!! That's a great idea indeed.. There are so much they can do to improve each of the scenes... that's the biggest problem with this movie that i think 90% of the viewers agreed on whether they hated the movie or they loved it.. and that's terrible story telling/character building/scene developing...

That's why i hope they have a 3 hour version in blu-ray where they fix all the scenes or enchance them...

thanks.

and you might like the following scene too to show why pa kent is so protective to his son.


1. Cut to the Kent’s house after the school scene.


Pa Kent woke up in the middle of night to see Ma Kent weeping in sorrow.
“What happened, Martha? Are you alright?” Pa worried
Ma Kent turned to his shoulder and cried on…
“John, please don’t let them take away our son… please don’t let them take away our son…” She cried uncontrollably.
“nobody will gonna take away our son…”consoled Pa while patting on her back gently.
The room door opened and the kid Clark ran in and jumped into his parents’ embrace.
“See, Clark heard us…” Pa Kent cleaned her tears on her face…
Clark saw and did the same…
“Mom, why do they want to take me away?” Clark cleaning her face while asking in puzzle.
“Because you have gifts. You are special. They are interested in special people.” Pa Kent cut in.
“Clark, promise us that you will not use your gifts in front of anybody… they will take you away from us if they see that…”
Clark nodded eagerly.
Three of them then fell into a tight embrace…

but unfortunately pa kent is not a "signaficant" supporting character. Jor-el is. therefore he can't have much scene time.

 

[robot]

thanks.

and you might like the following scene too to show why pa kent is so protective to his son.


1. Cut to the Kent’s house after the school scene.


Pa Kent woke up in the middle of night to see Ma Kent weeping in sorrow.
“What happened, Martha? Are you alright?” Pa worried
Ma Kent turned to his shoulder and cried on…
“John, please don’t let them take away our son… please don’t let them take away our son…” She cried uncontrollably.
“nobody will gonna take away our son…”consoled Pa while patting on her back gently.
The room door opened and the kid Clark ran in and jumped into his parents’ embrace.
“See, Clark heard us…” Pa Kent cleaned her tears on her face…
Clark saw and did the same…
“Mom, why do they want to take me away?” Clark cleaning her face while asking in puzzle.
“Because you have gifts. You are special. They are interested in special people.” Pa Kent cut in.
“Clark, promise us that you will not use your gifts in front of anybody… they will take you away from us if they see that…”
Clark nodded eagerly.
Three of them then fell into a tight embrace…

but unfortunately pa kent is not a "signaficant" supporting character. Jor-el is. therefore he can't have much scene time.

This is brilliant... there were so many ways to make his point...

I think the amount of ground they wanted to cover, they truly needed a 3 hour movie, not a 2:13 (real movie time minus the credits) movie... That way, they don't even need to use the 'flashbacks'.. they could have done it linearly... giving maybe Krypton 40 mins to develop into a full fledge war... then spend 40 mins on his growing up... and in that time, don't just show the 'depressed clarke', but balance it with magical moments like in the previous STM... one of the major complains is that this movie is just too 'dour the entire time, dark, without humor/magic/soul' and that 'Cavill was just wooded and one dimensional' (note: that's due to the script)... put in some epic scenes of him rescueing people there as well... and spend more time on his flying (slow it down.. right now, i don't even know what happened, it was so fast, and his close-ups all the time spoiled it for me... plus, you never truly enjoy the scenery)..... then build into the time when the Kryptonians arrives...

 

[kedrell]

My take on this whole issue is that it didn't bother me that Supermen was unable to save everybody during that end fight. When facing an opponent of equal power it would have been impossible for him to do so anyway. But my issue is that during that fight I don't remember seeing him even try to save people until the absolute end and the whole neck snapping thing. That and also we didn't see much reaction from him over all those dead. We were too busy seeing him react to him breaking his one rule. I guess it's ok but that's not to say there wasn't a helluva big space for improvement.