The Last Jedi Luke Skywalker's role in "The Last Jedi": Did you like it?

[titansupes]

Luke's primary conflict in the story was the disparity between the legend of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker that he was associated with and who he really was, a flawed man with regrets and mistakes. That's the key to his failure with Ben and his would-be Jedi resurgence, that he could not live up to the expectations put upon him by his old masters, that in the long run he couldn't be the "last hope". So the force projection was a way for him to own that legend and present the ideal of it rather than the fallible human that he actually was, which is able to inspire the next generation of potential heroes in the galaxy, Jedi and Rebel alike. If he had gone to Crait in the flesh he would have been obliterated by blaster fire and the legend would have died with him.

It's all very similar to the ideas Nolan was digging into with The Dark Knight Trilogy. That of a man becoming a symbol and the conflict between the man's frailty and the immortal, incorruptible nature of the myth.

This is the closest anyone's been to making me like what we got. When I go for my second viewing, I'll be keeping this post in mind.

 

[writer0327]

Bottom line is that Luke showed up Kylo, damaged his confidence, damaged the confidence of his followers, allowed the rebels to escape and gave a boost to their confidence. The $#!T is going to hit the fan in Ep 9.

I don't see what the problem is with this setup for the next movie and don't think this is the last Kylo has seen of Luke.

I absolutely love the way you set that up. Needless to say the First Order was already going to be on some shaky ground even before the Kylo/Luke event. No more Snoke, the destruction of some of their top ships and the death of important military people (Phasma).

Now after the embarrassment of Luke completely pulling the wool over their new Supreme Leader's eyes, this is really going to reverberate within the ranks.

And and Luke's "See ya around, kid..." was a message. "I'm not done with you."

 

[InCali]

Luke's primary conflict in the story was the disparity between the legend of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker that he was associated with and who he really was, a flawed man with regrets and mistakes. That's the key to his failure with Ben and his would-be Jedi resurgence, that he could not live up to the expectations put upon him by his old masters, that in the long run he couldn't be the "last hope". So the force projection was a way for him to own that legend and present the ideal of it rather than the fallible human that he actually was, which is able to inspire the next generation of potential heroes in the galaxy, Jedi and Rebel alike. If he had gone to Crait in the flesh he would have been obliterated by blaster fire and the legend would have died with him.

It's all very similar to the ideas Nolan was digging into with The Dark Knight Trilogy. That of a man becoming a symbol and the conflict between the man's frailty and the immortal, incorruptible nature of the myth.

Interesting. "If" however, he had gone in the flesh, he probably wouldn't have put himself in the same situation. Maybe he knew his options were limited and this was the best one.

The "he was a coward and afraid" ideas are, IMO, just silly.

 

[InCali]

I absolutely love the way you set that up. Needless to say the First Order was already going to be on some shaky ground even before the Kylo/Luke event. No more Snoke, the destruction of some of their top ships and the death of important military people (Phasma).

Now after the embarrassment of Luke completely pulling the wool over their new Supreme Leader's eyes, this is really going to reverberate within the ranks.

And and Luke's "See ya around, kid..." was a message. "I'm not done with you."

If they are alive to reverb....Krypton's ideas about the bad boss syndrome rather reverb with me.

 

[writer0327]

Interesting. "If" however, he had gone in the flesh, he probably wouldn't have put himself in the same situation. Maybe he knew his options were limited and this was the best one.

The "he was a coward and afraid" ideas are, IMO, just silly.

I don't know....I think he was a little afraid. Luke knows better than anyone that "fear leads to the Dark Side..." and he has already tiptoed along that line before. What would have happened to him? Who knows? But I'm not so sure that fear wasn't in his thinking, at least a little bit.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think that this power didn't come to Luke out of thin air. He must have read those sacred texts and I think the affect of using such a power over great distances must have been known to him. Therefor Luke knew what the possible even likely consequences of what he did would be to himself.

 

[Brother Jack]

This is the closest anyone's been to making me like what we got. When I go for my second viewing, I'll be keeping this post in mind.

It's taken a while for me to digest it, and I've still only seen the film once. Maybe there were better ways that those ideas could have been realized, but the ideas themselves and the intent behind them I think are fascinating. And actually in line with how Rey, and presumably many others, initially believed Luke to be a myth in The Force Awakens.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

When you think about Luke knowing where to talk, talk, stand, swing, dodge, etc when he's millions of miles away it just shows you how being in tune with the force isn't about telekenitic pushing and physical stunts. It's about awareness and tapping into a shared experience.

This is vastly more impressive than simply feeling someone or the force somewhere or causing a storm trooper a lapse in judgement or holding a heavy object.

It shows true mastery and understanding of the force.

 

[Flemm]

And actually in line with how Rey, and presumably many others, initially believed Luke to be a myth in The Force Awakens.

But she knows who he is now, and so does Leia, so any future Jedi will not based on the myth of Skywalker, but on a knowledge of the reality.

And the reality isn't bad. The projection is a more subtle display of power than a physical fight would have been, and underscores the idea that the force is more about using one's mind than physical strength.

I think that is the stronger argument, tbh.

An idea can be powerful and greater than the mortal individual who inspired it. But not if it's based on a lie. That's the difference between the white knight and the Dark Knight. So I don't think it's about creating an illusion with regard to the rebels. With regard to the First Order, yes, that might make sense. But, with regard to the light side, it has to be the truth of Luke's experience that is carried forward.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

That's a tactical distinction. It makes it a more effective ruse, potentially.

It doesn't really add anything thematically, though, or make Luke represent something greater in that moment. He tricks Kylo in a way that is clever.



Luke physically being there could also have been inspiring.

The force image projection is a convoluted device, but I'm struggling to see any thematic significance that a more straight-forward confrontation could not have had.

For example, Holdo's sacrifice is also inspiring, right? But it's much more direct. She's actually there when it happens.

Unless the idea is that Luke succeeds in creating a false sense of hope by seeming to be invulnerable when he really is not. But I don't think that is the message, it's just supposed to be surprising initially.

To the extent that Luke represents something greater, I guess it would be the idea of the Jedi... or something. But I don't think he would need to be an image in order to represent that.

It's about the power of ideas over physical power.

A popular theory about Inception was that it was really about movie making and planting themes in people's heads.

Luke's standoff is a continuation.

It begs the question, what is more powerful? Ideas/imagination or armies?


Well, let's be honest what has imported more western culture in the last century? Invading armies or Hollywood.

Or we can assume the message is less about Hollywood implanting ideas and more about how political ideology and religion can shape history more than basic military conquest.

Either way the concept of ideas overriding physical might can be seen if you look closely enough.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

There's probably some MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE type stuff going on in the SW universe now.


[YT]oz0eFCO0mUg[/YT]

 

[Boom]

I'm leaning more towards not liking it, but I'm having a hard time explaining why. I don't mind that the film [blackout]ended with him dying[/blackout], I just think the road to getting there could have been better.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Luke's primary conflict in the story was the disparity between the legend of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker that he was associated with and who he really was, a flawed man with regrets and mistakes. That's the key to his failure with Ben and his would-be Jedi resurgence, that he could not live up to the expectations put upon him by his old masters, that in the long run he couldn't be the "last hope". So the force projection was a way for him to own that legend and present the ideal of it rather than the fallible human that he actually was, which is able to inspire the next generation of potential heroes in the galaxy, Jedi and Rebel alike. If he had gone to Crait in the flesh he would have been obliterated by blaster fire and the legend would have died with him.

It's all very similar to the ideas Nolan was digging into with The Dark Knight Trilogy. That of a man becoming a symbol and the conflict between the man's frailty and the immortal, incorruptible nature of the myth.

Someone who gets it

Also another thing to point out, in TESB, Luke goes to find this great Warrior Yoda. What he finds instead is more akin to a Buddhist Monk. He finds a man of peace, not a warrior. This was the last thing he was expecting to find. I think we're all looking at the Jedi like warriors, but that is not what a Jedi is. The Jedi way is not to simply fight with laser swords and slay the enemy. In this way, Luke is presenting us with a vision of what the Jedi can be, a beacon of hope. Just having them fight simplifies the idea of what a Jedi is or what the Jedi should be going forward.

 

[markjoedelonge]

I don't think any of us wanted him to go to Crait. The Force projection thing was pretty clever and makes sense. My issue is with them killing him for real after "killing" him.

 

[Mjölnir]

V from V for Vendetta:

"Ideas are bulletproof."

I think this message of Luke's standoff.

What message can you convey with cheat code Luke wiping out AT-AT's as a one man army?

I'll just start by saying that I wasn't asking for Luke to take down the New Order by himself or anything of the sort, I'm just responding to what's been stated here as a hypothetical.

If you sow the false idea that Luke is so powerful that he could stand against the New Order's might like that, the idea should start to evaporate as soon as you notice that the powerful individual never did anything more again. People should start to think that it's a lie, as it's only spread by a handful of people anyway (hardly anyone was on the planet so it's just propaganda from the remaining few of the Resistance).

If he actually had stood up to them you'd either have a sacrificial story, or you'd have a powerful Jedi master around that keeps enhancing his legend. The first makes more sense as a lasting story as it explains why nothing more happens and shows the value of standing up to tyranny at all costs.

 

[Mjölnir]

I don't think any of us wanted him to go to Crait. The Force projection thing was pretty clever and makes sense. My issue is with them killing him for real after "killing" him.

Yes, if you arrive at that point the projection scene used as a start of his return to Luke, not Jake, can be a very powerful moment. As it is the following death becomes really weak due to what came before it.

But most of all I just want them to build a reasonable arc based on what the character has been established as, rather than actually destroy the foundation and rebuild a different character.

 

[markjoedelonge]

Yes, if you arrive at that point the projection scene used as a start of his return to Luke, not Jake, can be a very powerful moment. As it is the following death becomes really weak due to what came before it.

But most of all I just want them to build a reasonable arc based on what the character has been established as, rather than actually destroy the foundation and rebuild a different character.

Yup. The perfect ending for this would have been Luke looking at the twin suns with renewed purpose and slowly standing up, signalling his renewed purpose and desire to right the wrongs. Imagine if the movie had ended on that.

 

[Aximili86]

Guys, Luke being fine after what he pulled, projecting himself across the galaxy with voice and visual form, is way too much for Star Wars. He'd be a virtual god at that point.

It's a sacrifice play, and it works as one. It's new, different, while still feeling like something sufficiently-accomplished Jedi could pull off so long as there's some price, pay-off. If he's fine after doing that he's in super-being territory and it becomes too much.

Jedi and Sith alike have always come off as mortal, despite all their abilities. Yoda died of old age, Palpatine of physical trauma, you don't want a situation where Luke (ostensibly less raw-powerful than either of those guys) can just show up lightyears away on a whim.

 

[Flemm]

It's a sacrifice play, and it works as one.

I agree that Luke surviving would not have worked.

If you take away the risk to Luke, the heroic element is also stripped away, and it really does become more like an effective ruse. One can argue that the risk should have been clearer, or presented differently.

But it's supposed to work like a noble sacrifice, that's the concept.

 

[BatLobster]

Luke's primary conflict in the story was the disparity between the legend of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker that he was associated with and who he really was, a flawed man with regrets and mistakes. That's the key to his failure with Ben and his would-be Jedi resurgence, that he could not live up to the expectations put upon him by his old masters, that in the long run he couldn't be the "last hope". So the force projection was a way for him to own that legend and present the ideal of it rather than the fallible human that he actually was, which is able to inspire the next generation of potential heroes in the galaxy, Jedi and Rebel alike. If he had gone to Crait in the flesh he would have been obliterated by blaster fire and the legend would have died with him.

It's all very similar to the ideas Nolan was digging into with The Dark Knight Trilogy. That of a man becoming a symbol and the conflict between the man's frailty and the immortal, incorruptible nature of the myth.

Yup. I def was feeling the TDKT parallels there.

And I also know Rian is a huge Nolan fan and was even defending TDKR once on a 2012 Kevin Smith podcast.

Not saying he was intentionally ripping it off, but I could see it being an in influence and just having similar tastes as far as depicting heroes as human, but transcending that.

TLJ also reminded me of TDK structurally in how it feels like there's a big climax (Snoke confrontation/Joker interrogation) but the movie then kicks into a new gear after that.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Yes, if you arrive at that point the projection scene used as a start of his return to Luke, not Jake, can be a very powerful moment. As it is the following death becomes really weak due to what came before it.

But most of all I just want them to build a reasonable arc based on what the character has been established as, rather than actually destroy the foundation and rebuild a different character.

So Luke would never be tempted by the dark side?

Knowing the the force basically has a mind of it's own and completely sabotaged Luke's dream and ended it cyclical tragedy he would do the hermit, exile thing like Yoda and Obi Wan?

Just because something subverted your expectations doesn't mean it betrays the character.

You think all religious people who feel betrayed by God are as idealistic as they were as a young believer?

You think all war veterans are enthusiastic about a 30 year conflict?

Luke makes reasonable decisions based on how the story progresses.

He is not a bad person. Just less naive and idealist and more pragmatic and grounded.

 

[BatLobster]

Btw, it's apparently come out that Luke being in hiding and dwelling on the past Jedi failures was indeed one of Lucas' original ideas.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/21/disney-details-george-lucas-scrapped-third-star-wars-trilogy

Combine that with Pablo's earlier statements about how the backstory between VI and VII was based on Lucas' notes, that probably also means Luke would have been in hiding even with the First Order out there.

I for one still would've absolutely been curious to see George's ideas, but it also doesn't feel like they were scrapped entirely. Re-arranged for sure, but clearly some elements did survive.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Btw, it's apparently come out that Luke being in hiding and dwelling on the past Jedi failures was indeed one of Lucas' original ideas.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/21/disney-details-george-lucas-scrapped-third-star-wars-trilogy

Combine that with Pablo's earlier statements about how the backstory between VI and VII was based on Lucas' notes, that probably also means Luke would have been in hiding even with the First Order out there.

I for one still would've absolutely been curious to see George's ideas, but it also doesn't feel like they were scrapped entirely. Re-arranged for sure, but clearly some elements did survive.

I thought I read somewhere that Lucas liked the movie and was complimentary to Johnson after, on that note.

 

[pkwy22]

Yup. The perfect ending for this would have been Luke looking at the twin suns with renewed purpose and slowly standing up, signalling his renewed purpose and desire to right the wrongs. Imagine if the movie had ended on that.

 

[BatLobster]

I thought I read somewhere that Lucas liked the movie and was complimentary to Johnson after, on that note.

To be fair all we know is he said it was "beautifully made". Doesn't necessarily mean he approved of all the choices, but either way I think he accepts that it's not his story anymore.

I could definitely see Lucas approving of the striking visuals on Crait and the samurai-vibe of that final confrontation. And I could see him liking the Canto Bight stuff, which is admittedly a bit prequel-y haha.