The Last Jedi Luke Skywalker's role in "The Last Jedi": Did you like it?

[Sithborg]

Which is insane, given Rose's message and actions were against nihilism.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Are you kidding me?
Disney made Luke into a cowardly idiot who caused the 2nd galactic civil war to happen. He didn't learn from the mistakes he made in Empire Strikes Back that costed him his hand which is like Yoda said, "Always in motion is the future". You'd think that he would know the difference between visions and reality because he shouldn't have jumped the gun in assuming that Ben Solo would turn evil without any proof nor should he have pulled his lightsaber on him while Ben was sleeping. It is due to that epic screwup that Ben became Kylo Ren, killed all of Luke's students, and helped Snoke lead the First Order. Luke is old and wise enough to NOT make that kind of blunder nor would he turned his back on his friends, family, and the galaxy at large. Mark Hamill was right to disagree with the way Luke is being portrayed in both TFA and TLJ because that is NOT Luke Skywalker, that is Obi-wan 2.0.

You guys don't understand Luke's actions because you can't grasp his perspective.

Luke no longer sees the force as a benevolent entity.

To paraphrase Kyle Reese from Terminator: "Listen, and understand! That Force is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear! And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until the universe is balanced."

Luke could be the noblest most heroic jedi in history and the force would order 66 everything he cares about to balance things out.

 

[InCali]

Are you kidding me?
Disney made Luke into a cowardly idiot who caused the 2nd galactic civil war to happen. He didn't learn from the mistakes he made in Empire Strikes Back that costed him his hand which is like Yoda said, "Always in motion is the future". You'd think that he would know the difference between visions and reality because he shouldn't have jumped the gun in assuming that Ben Solo would turn evil without any proof nor should he have pulled his lightsaber on him while Ben was sleeping. It is due to that epic screwup that Ben became Kylo Ren, killed all of Luke's students, and helped Snoke lead the First Order. Luke is old and wise enough to NOT make that kind of blunder nor would he turned his back on his friends, family, and the galaxy at large. Mark Hamill was right to disagree with the way Luke is being portrayed in both TFA and TLJ because that is NOT Luke Skywalker, that is Obi-wan 2.0.

There's certainly nothing cowardly about your post.

Dying to completely humiliate and undermine Kylo doesn't strike me as cowardly, but we all have our opinions. Some might describe it as idiotic, but that would be their opinion as well.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

There's really nothing mature about lazy nihilism and false equivalences between people who are flawed and actively oppress other people, on the one hand, and people who are flawed and try to stand up for the weak and vulnerable, on the other.

Fortunately, that is not the movie's message, at least I don't think so.

It's a redemption story, with Luke finally deciding, "I will not be The Last Jedi."

However, it comes close enough to declaring that everything is futile, and that all sides in the conflict are the same, to apparently send that message to some people in the audience.

I've seen a couple of articles arguing that the message is basically that everything is futile, so why bother? Which I don't think is accurate, but there are some elements that head in that direction.

Found two relevant quotes that sum things up pretty well:

"Choose your battles wisely. After all, life isn't measured by how many times you stood up to fight. It's not winning battles that makes you happy, but it's how many times you turned away and chose to look into a better direction. Life is too short to spend it on warring. Fight only the most, most, most important ones, let the rest go."

- C. Joybell


"You've got to pick your battles, but then fight to the death for the ones that matter."

- Once Upon A Crime Family

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

There's certainly nothing cowardly about your post.

Dying to completely humiliate and undermine Kylo doesn't strike me as cowardly, but we all have our opinions. Some might describe it as idiotic, but that would be their opinion as well.

He did it to rescue the resistence from annihilation and a little childish pay back of course.

 

[C. Lee]

I've seen a couple of articles arguing that the message is basically that everything is futile, so why bother? Which I don't think is accurate, but there are some elements that head in that direction.

The people who wrote those articles don't consider this....if everything is futile....then why did Luke give his life expending energy to send his image across the galaxy to save the remnants of the rebellion? That act worked. It saved his sister. It saved the main group of the rebellion. It mind ****ed Kylo and the First Order. It will bring in new members to the rebellion as the legend of what he did spreads. It wasn't futile. The makers of the movie didn't make the movie to say that things were futile. Unfortunately....as they say....some people perceive things to be one way and others perceive it to be another.

 

[Flemm]

Luke could be the noblest most heroic jedi in history and the force would order 66 everything he cares about to balance things out.

Well, that's the nihilism argument.

Neither the Jedi nor the Sith can win, they are just locked in a never-ending struggle that increases suffering, perpetuates war, and feeds a system of exploitation.

By that logic, Rey should never train another Jedi, because the force would create a darkside equivalent. The only solution would be to give up. No action is meaningful, either good or bad.

The problem is: that's nonsense. Doing something good, or struggling for a slightly more just and peaceful world, doesn't create evil. And committing evil acts does not cause equivalent good events to occur.

And that's never been the case in Star Wars either. The dark and light side are a fantasy that expresses the potential for good and evil within each individual.

So anyway.

Like I said earlier, I think the movie is actually about a redemption, but some of the "deconstructive" stuff teeters on the brink of being pretty stupid.

 

[danoyse]

The people who wrote those articles don't consider this....if everything is futile....then why did Luke give his life expending energy to send his image across the galaxy to save the remnants of the rebellion? That act worked. It saved his sister. It saved the main group of the rebellion. It mind ****ed Kylo and the First Order. It will bring in new members to the rebellion as the legend of what he did spreads. It wasn't futile. The makers of the movie didn't make the movie to say that things were futile. Unfortunately....as they say....some people perceive things to be one way and others perceive it to be another.

Exactly. The story was about learning from failure.

 

[C. Lee]

A musing....

Return of the Jedi came out in 1983. The Force Awakens in 2015. That's 32 years between them. Unless something has been said I missed....you can say those 32 years are canon. As in 32 years passed for the characters also.

I don't know if it has been said at what age Ben Solo attacked Luke and killed the students. The flashback (to me) was hard to tell....so for this musing I will say 18.

Let's assume Han and Leia got right to it and she birthed Ben within a year of RotJ ending. That would put Ben's rebellion at 19 years after RotJ. So if Luke took off immediately after that happened...that would mean he was missing for 13 years.

I have been reading people saying that Luke's leaving directly led to the First Order coming to power. So I have to wonder....could this military force actually become this big in 13 years?

John Boyega who plays Finn was 23 in TFA. So let's assume Finn was actually 23 also. He was taken as a child to be conditioned as a StormTrooper. So the First Order was doing this for at least 20 years. They most likely had been doing it for more years than that....because surely Finn wasn't from the first class of Troopers. So let's say they started their plan when the Empire fell....so they have been causing trouble for 32 years.

So if they have been causing trouble for 32 years....why are people complaining about Luke leaving 13 years ago? Apparently that weasly little coward hadn't done a damn thing in 32 years.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Well, that's the nihilism argument.

Neither the Jedi nor the Sith can win, they are just locked in a never-ending struggle that increases suffering, perpetuates war, and feeds a system of exploitation.

By that logic, Rey should never train another Jedi, because the force would create a darkside equivalent. The only solution would be to give up. No action is meaningful, either good or bad.

The problem is: that's nonsense. Doing something good, or struggling for a slightly more just and peaceful world, doesn't create evil. And committing evil acts does not cause equivalent good events to occur.

And that's never been the case in Star Wars either. The dark and light side are a fantasy that expresses the potential for good and evil within each individual.

So anyway.

Like I said earlier, I think the movie is actually about a redemption, but some of the "deconstructive" stuff teeters on the brink of being pretty stupid.

The Force is based on Taoism and the concept of yin and yang.

Light and dark forces feed into each other to create a cosmic balance.

There's definitely Western religious stuff thrown into the mix as well but you can't ignore the heavy Eastern religion/philosophy when discussing the force.

Maybe you don't think of order 66 and Ben destroying the early jedi order as the force auto correcting but that's the only good reason for Luke to quit. If it's just evil people being evil then it's pretty much a given that Luke would be compelled to just avenge his students blah blah blah.

But I doubt your interpretation is what LucasFilm was going for because it makes the force pointless outside of an excuse to use powers.

I do agree redemption is ultimately the end of Luke's character arc like his father before him.

 

[Sithborg]

The destruction of Luke's Jedi Academy was 5 years before TFA. So, 5 years is nothing compared to Obi-wan and Yoda's 20 years.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The thing that confounds in these harsh negative reactions is...

1. Luke, as he did in the throne room has a moment of temptation... Which the film clearly shows is that... A MOMENT. He doesn't go through with it.

2. Luke however was right perhaps in his initial reaction. Ben destroys the Jedi academy, kills a mess of student and takes a bunch that have aligned with him off the planet, presumably these are the Knights of Ren. Okay... That isn't something that happens on a whim by Ben. Ben had to obviously be working on the other students and planning this for some time. So while Luke feels bad about attempting to kill Ben the little **** had been earning that consequence of his actions. He can play hurt all he wants but it was Ben that had been plotting all along I think, not Luke.


3. Luke in the film has a reaction not too different from the fans that feel so strongly about how this moment of weakness is some stain on his character... AND THAT'S THE INTENTION. Luke feels shame that, oh my god, I'm human... And can't process it, can't forgive himself, can't be the "legend" that was Luke Skywalker after having almost killed his (evil) nephew in his sleep. And that putting himself on a pedestal that others did as well was an illusion of self that he needed to overcome. He had to see that even after all the good he had done for the galaxy and how instrumental he was in defeating great evil, that he was still just a man, prone to the flaws of people. And having those flaws didn't mean he wasn't worthy or capable of still contributing to the universe. It wasn't "cowardice". That's so simplistic, though fear does play a part. But it was fear of his own actions, not fear of others. It was fear that he was now compromised, morally and in his judgment. He felt deeply responsible for all that followed, starting with the death of his other students and the end of the Jedi, only this time with him at the head of the Order. He then wallowed in this doubt and couldn't find his own way out of it. And this is as human as any of the other flaws Luke showed in the other films of the Original Trilogy. Luke's story in TFA and TLJ does what heroes journey stories are supposed to do. Illuminate the actual human experience we all go through. If he's just perfect person that has no internal life or issues to overcome and learn from then he's not the hero of a story. He's just a mere caricature acting as pop culture comfort food. And when you really analyze it, that's actually NOT what Lucas intended with these stories from the get go. I myself find a lot more inspiration in characters that are actually textured human beings, warts, shortcomings and all, that still do great and positive things, than cardboard cut outs that never make mistakes, never slip, never show the beauty of human imperfection.


But that's me.

 

[Flemm]

But I doubt your interpretation is what LucasFilm was going for because it makes the force pointless outside of an excuse to use powers.

If you mean the nihilism interpretation, it's not mine.

It's an interpretation that's being thrown around in some articles about the film, which see that as the subversive message.

There are some elements in the film that support it, but I can't agree with the concept.

Regarding yin/yang, sure, that's an influence, but to my knowledge, there's nothing about yin and yang that renders human action futile and pointless.

Taoism isn't a nihilistic philosophy. Or at least, I wouldn't have thought so.

 

[markjoedelonge]

Just realised Luke says "The Rebellion is reborn today", not the Resistance. :') Oh Luke. Why oh why did you have to die.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Nihilism is basically a person that believes morality doesn't truly exist or matter.

If that was Luke's mindset he wouldn't be an exile like Yoda or Obi Wan. He would just go for bloody revenge and slaughter everyone who dared cross him. Of course this would mean he pretty much turned to to the dark side but who cares, "nihilism". A real world example of nihilists who walked the walk were Nazis during the holocaust.

But that's nowhere close to where Luke was. His philosophy is "our arms are too short to box with God" which makes him stop "boxing" completely. He's still a good person, he just has a bird's eye view and realizes the force has a mind of its own and his hopes, dreams and heroics can become splattered roadkill on a whim.

But he's still a good person just cranky and retired from trying to save the world.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I was just thinking to add to my previous post... Luke shows mercy to Ben. He rethinks a violent act despite having good reason to not show mercy. As stated, similar to his moment in the throne room with the Emperor and his father. Only this time... The universe did not reward him for his moral stance. This time it turned out differently. He did something just like the last time he was tempted, only the outcome was different. This it could be argued might have added to his reaction to the aftermath of his temptation and made him unsure of his judgment all the more.

 

[godisawesome]

I was just thinking to add to my previous post... Luke shows mercy to Ben. He rethinks a violent act despite having good reason to not show mercy. As stated, similar to his moment in the throne room with the Emperor and his father. Only this time... The universe did not reward him for his moral stance. This time it turned out differently. He did something just like the last time he was tempted, only the outcome was different. This it could be argued might have added to his reaction to the aftermath of his temptation and made him unsure of his judgment all the more.

On the rewatch, I found Luke's story quite a bit more satisfying, in part because of the human element. But... I do think that Johnson may have leaned a bit too far into Luke's pessimism and refusal to act. That the core idea (Luke made a mistake, paid an unbearably steep price for it, and is somewhat broken by it and now regards the Jedi as broken too) does work, but having him steadfastly refuse to do anything and insist there is no salvation for the Jedi until the talk with Yoda is a bit much. This was an altruistic and compassionate hero, and billions of people just died before a villainous onslaught. It may have been better to make him more cautious and frightened of more mistakes than outright refusing to do anything.

Maybe he should have been introduced as someone who is trying to figure out what element of teaching he or the Jedi got wrong, with it not being a steadfast belief the Jedi should end but rather that the Galaxy can't afford any more Jedi screw ups. That he does start to train Rey with a mix of cynicism and idealism... And then his crisis of faith can be Rey making contact with Kylo.

And maybe a better way to handle the moment in the hut with Ben would have been to clarify a bit more what exactly Snoke has done to make Ben go dark; that would help both characters a bit more in motivation. Imagine if Luke peers into Ben's head and sees Vader illusions created by Snoke to corrupt Ben. Or heck, imagine if bith Luke and Ben had been gas lighted by Snoke a bit. That couto work better, because then Luke can't trust himself, and Ben has an extra reason to turn on Snoke and a better reason for the audience to think he may turn good.

 

[Flemm]

Nihilism is basically a person that believes morality doesn't truly exist or matter.

Well, it can mean a few different things. Morality not existing is one, but meaning not existing is another.

There are aspects of The Last Jedi that come pretty close to that. If the Force is always going to compensate bad for good, in what sense can any action be considered good?

Being good, or being a hero, has no real meaning in that context. That wouldn't make Luke evil, but it would make him someone who believes that trying to be heroic is futile.

I think it's a bad interpretation of the light/dark concept, but I can also understand why some interpret the movie that way. I hope that this was not really the intent, but what do I know?

 

[Brother Jack]

Luke's disillusionment with the Jedi actually legitimized much of what Lucas was attempting to say about the Order in the prequels. Hearing Luke speak directly about Darth Sidious and how the Jedi were blind to his evil suddenly made the overall narrative of the PT more pertinent to the OT and ST than it's ever been. Like it might actually be necessary now to see those films to get what the new ones are doing. Without them you don't have the full picture of the Jedi's self-destruction.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Luke's disillusionment with the Jedi actually legitimized much of what Lucas was attempting to say about the Order in the prequels. Hearing Luke speak directly about Darth Sidious and how the Jedi were blind to his evil suddenly made the overall narrative of the PT more pertinent to the OT and ST than it's ever been. Like it might actually be necessary now to see those films to get what the new ones are doing. Without them you don't have the full picture of the Jedi's self-destruction.

I agree. TLJ does operate in the wake of all that came before it and can only be appreciated in full if you know how the story has wound it's way to this point.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Well, it can mean a few different things. Morality not existing is one, but meaning not existing is another.

There are aspects of The Last Jedi that come pretty close to that. If the Force is always going to compensate bad for good, in what sense can any action be considered good?

Being good, or being a hero, has no real meaning in that context. That wouldn't make Luke evil, but it would make him someone who believes that trying to be heroic is futile.

I think it's a bad interpretation of the light/dark concept, but I can also understand why some interpret the movie that way. I hope that this was not really the intent, but what do I know?

It's not that something bad happens every time you do something good.

Luke's academy might've been a success the jedi order might be established for decades but eventually balance will need to be reestablished.

Luke found this inevitability spiritually exhausting.

Ultimately he had seen too much tragedy to continue the cycle by passing down the torch. Evil is taking over everything? Let the force find a way to balance things out instead of volunteering to be a human punching bag.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Well, it can mean a few different things. Morality not existing is one, but meaning not existing is another.

There are aspects of The Last Jedi that come pretty close to that. If the Force is always going to compensate bad for good, in what sense can any action be considered good?

Being good, or being a hero, has no real meaning in that context. That wouldn't make Luke evil, but it would make him someone who believes that trying to be heroic is futile.

I think it's a bad interpretation of the light/dark concept, but I can also understand why some interpret the movie that way. I hope that this was not really the intent, but what do I know?

It's grappling with a consequence of any idea that posits an all powerful and unifying aspect of the universe. This is the issue many have with the concept of God in the Abrahamic faiths. An all powerful God who has a "plan" and therefor is in charge of all things, great, small and inbetween. Nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, can occur in a universe without the consent of such a central first actor controlling the entirety of all things in it. And yet central to those faiths is also the idea of moral responsibility of the individual. Yet, if God is "in control" then how can human beings be held responsible for their actions?

I am not going to convince anyone of what I think on this, and this isn't the place to hash out something that scholars, philosophers ad theologians have been wrestling with for thousands of years. So... I don't expect a movie about space wizards to necessarily have the answer any more than I or anyone else does.

 

[idiot09]

Luke's disillusionment with the Jedi actually legitimized much of what Lucas was attempting to say about the Order in the prequels. Hearing Luke speak directly about Darth Sidious and how the Jedi were blind to his evil suddenly made the overall narrative of the PT more pertinent to the OT and ST than it's ever been. Like it might actually be necessary now to see those films to get what the new ones are doing. Without them you don't have the full picture of the Jedi's self-destruction.

I agree, which makes it weird for me, because why does this realisation come so late for Luke? Why didnt he learn from those early failures, and incorporate those teachings into the new Jedi Order he was creating?

 

[writer0327]

I agree, which makes it weird for me, because why does this realisation come so late for Luke? Why didnt he learn from those early failures, and incorporate those teachings into the new Jedi Order he was creating?

Goes back to the hubris of the Jedi and Luke's own feeling of self-importance. You have to believe that Luke thought after overcoming Palpatine and bringing his father back from the Dark Side, that nothing could stop him. That is the very problem that Yoda pointed out, that Luke didn't pass on his previous failures and the failures of the Jedi to his students. He didn't learn from his own mistakes and therefore repeated them.

 

[idiot09]

Goes back to the hubris of the Jedi and Luke's own feeling of self-importance. You have to believe that Luke thought after overcoming Palpatine and bringing his father back from the Dark Side, that nothing could stop him. That is the very problem that Yoda pointed out, that Luke didn't pass on his previous failures and the failures of the Jedi to his students. He didn't learn from his own mistakes and therefore repeated them.

Yeah. I mean we saw how the hubris of the Jedi brought their downfall in the PT. I do hope that in Ep 9, Luke actually passes on these teachings to Rey, the lessons from these mistakes that the Jedi have made.