Man of Steel vs Superman: The Movie

[blumatic]

That's my problem with the hate for MOS, a lot of the previous Superman movies have issues if you really break them down.

I think the only true criticism I buy is the lack of levity. But I don't think it destroyed the film.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

Man of Steel has made me wonder why Superman loved Lois so much on the 78 movie that he went into a rage at he death and spun the world backwards. In MOS it made sense because it was only the start of a relationship, but in Superman he saved her from falling, had an interview with her and was ignored by her at work. Hey I buy that he liked her but not so intensely that he goes back in time to save her.

To me it seemed like he didn't just build up a relationship with Lois in Superman: The Movie, but also a friendship. If you look at young Clark in that movie, nobody cared about him when he was cleaning up the football pads. Nobody stopped to help him. Lois and his mother were honestly the only friends he had. That's just the way I see it.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I found this comment/topic interesting from IMDB.



Why MOS is getting mixed reception
Frothbyte-


northernlad-


SturmLiouville-


ugottrollolololol-
To read more comments.
Why MOS is getting mixed reception
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0770828/board/flat/217208651?p=1

Fantastic, lets bring IMDb comments into it. They're not bitter at all, no sirree.

 

[eyes]

In my view STM is by far better than MOS. The reason I prefered it is that it really develops superman on earth while in MOS they just prefed to give plenty of action than develop superman and there were too many flaws in the story. I will do a more detailed comparison of movies.

1) Krypton. In MOS there were much more impressive scenes than STM. It seems normal to me when it is compared to a movie 35 years ago. Although Krypton of STM seems to me a really high-tech alien planet while Krypton of MOS seems more like a pre-historical earth with people and weapons. Anyway this is not big deal.
In STM we had a realistic story. Traitor Zod was sent to phantom zone, Jor El knew that planet will be destroyed and since he had promised that he and his wife will not leave planet he send to earth his son. In MOS we have another story. Jor EL who is scientist goes against science and has a naturally born baby and Zod who is the army leader hates him for this. This is a flaw for me and is not the only one in Krypton. Flaws are also the Jor El beats Zod at their figth, that he and his wife never thought of following their special baby on earth to help him grow and of course that all knew that planet will be destroyed and stayed there to die unless the traitors who were send to prison which wouldnt be prison after planet's explosion....
It is easy to me to say that STM did much better job on Krypton...

2) Growing with Kents. Im MOS there are more moments with Kents and the discovering of his powers and the building of his character. Still is missing the important moment of Kents finding him and deciding to keep him as their son. I believe there should have done much better job in both movies. Im MOS was missing the finding of baby, while there were more in the troubles Clark had discovering his powers and doing few saves. In STM Pa Kent tried to tell him that he is on earth for a big reason while in MOS for Pa Kent was to Clark to keep his secret. I think that an ideal movie should be a combination of the moments with Kents of these movies. Of course it should be done without these flashbacks and I would prefer the the death of Pa of STM.

3) FOS. Personally I dont like the idea of FOS. I would prefer to use his crystal-key somewhere on his spaceship and have contact of Jor El than having FOS. I find silly idea to have a hidden fortress created by a crystal (STM) or to have a ship covered by ice for 20000 years (MOS) and not to be discovered by humans at 2013.

4) Secret id. In STM the first saves come when he is already Superman. This is a key to keep his secret id. Although it was never explained why he had glasses even before we see him as superman and he was accept without doubts from everyone. I guess government should concern if there was an alien living among their citizens. In MOS it is obvious he cant have secret id even if they tried to fix this at the end when he destroyed the satellite. When so many people have seen him rescuing them without the suit, when a reporter like Lois finds him then obviously army and cia can find him too. I believe also that the glass thing could work to keep a secret id 30-40 years ago since the media, internet, computers, satellites were at poor level comparing to the ones we have today but glasses cannot work as his cover today. I wouldn't mind if in MOS had intoduced another cover way.

5) Final battles. Of course in MOS the action was much better but it was more like a fight of aliens than a superman saving earth. I believe such battle should have been in MOS 2 after superman had been accepted as earths protector. We just see aliens fighting on earth, army firing at everyone even to superman. It doesn't sound to me like a superman movie. In STM there was not so much action and was also the major flaw at the end of the movie with turning back time. Flaw is also how Lex found out about kryponite and used it without even testing it.

Overall I believe that MOS is good movie but fails as introduction story of superman. They tried to correct where SR failed (action) and they added so much action in movie and forgot that this is an initial story and have to cover plently of other staff. STM developed superman and kept the much action in the second movie. They should have done the same of make a much longer movie.

 

[blumatic]

Clark Kent: Why didn't you come with me?
Jor-El: We couldn't, Kal. As much as we wanted to, we couldn't. Your mother and I were as much a product of the failures of our world as Zod was.


I guess when you a made as opposed to born, you are programmed a certain way. You can stray from time to time but for the most part you need to function a certain way or else you cant function at all.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Man of Steel has made me wonder why Superman loved Lois so much on the 78 movie that he went into a rage at he death and spun the world backwards. In MOS it made sense because it was only the start of a relationship, but in Superman he saved her from falling, had an interview with her and was ignored by her at work. Hey I buy that he liked her but not so intensely that he goes back in time to save her.

That's because it was supposed to be the ending to Superman II, but the Salkinds moved it up to the end of the first film. Because of that it ends up being the biggest flaw of the first film.

 

[blumatic]

I dont think Jor-El went against science. The people on Krypton are no robots. They are more so born with specific talents than programs. What Jor-El did was break the law.

In MOS Pa Kent did say to Clark that he was sent here for a reason. And that he (Clark) owed it to himself to find out what that reason is. (Thus why Clark travels around as an adult).

I dont know if Superman was developed any more in STM than he was in MOS. At least in MOS there was more of a childhood explored. In STM he is Superman because he is Superman. No rhyme or reason. No reason why he decides to work at the Daily Planet. One can say that Jor-El sent Superman to save earth. But I say why? and From whom?

And if Jor-El knew the Earth was going to blow up anyway in STM, why didnt he just go with Kal-El?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

One thing I didn't like about MoS is that I didn't feel that Clark becoming Superman was really earned. He finds the ship, has a five minute conversation with Jor-El, puts on the suit and then he's Superman. In the original that sequence takes 12 years!

It also ruins the Jor-El/Kal-El relationship by having them barely even meet.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

One thing I didn't like about MoS is that I didn't feel that Clark becoming Superman was really earned. He finds the ship, has a five minute conversation with Jor-El, puts on the suit and then he's Superman. In the original that sequence takes 12 years!

It also ruins the Jor-El/Kal-El relationship by having them barely even meet.

The suit does not make the man. It is more then a reasonable argument that Clark didn't "become" Superman until after he makes the choice to save us (escape from Black Zero) or even the end of the film.

 

[blumatic]

One thing I didn't like about MoS is that I didn't feel that Clark becoming Superman was really earned. He finds the ship, has a five minute conversation with Jor-El, puts on the suit and then he's Superman. In the original that sequence takes 12 years!

It also ruins the Jor-El/Kal-El relationship by having them barely even meet.

I think the opposite. The sequence took 12 years but it didnt seem like he earned it there neither. In both movies................why does he have to where a costume since he is not wearing mask.

And in MOS, I dont think he's "Superman" it was more like a birthright given to him and he must make good with it.

" You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders." Everything Jor-El says is future tense. He will be THE SUPERMAN. But he's not yet.

Jor El and Kal meet a second time as well: "Born on Krypton and raised on Earth, you had the best of both and were meant to be the bridge between two worlds."

Everything Jor-El says is what Kal should be to be Superman. But I can't imagine a guy with Clark's insecurities already be the hero he needs to be in one film.

In the sequel it can take more from Mark Waid's Birthright where Clark feels like he is not living up to Ideal of Hope that represents his father's sigil.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Superman wears the suit because Superman wears the suit. Just like how Superman files and shoots lasers out of his eyes. Because he is Superman.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Superman wears the suit because Superman wears the suit. Just like how Superman files and shoots lasers out of his eyes. Because he is Superman.

That is true. But storywise in both versions he wears it because it is the symbol of his House. It may be just an excuse to get him in the classic outfit, but it is there.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think the opposite. The sequence took 12 years but it didnt seem like he earned it there neither. In both movies................why does he have to where a costume since he is not wearing mask.

Obviously he continues to learn after getting the suit in both versions, but everything in Man of Steel just seems to come to easy. In Man of Steel, he basically is Superman by birthright and that's that. It undermines the message of the film somewhat. In the original he was born with great powers, but he doesn't really understand them. He isn't Superman solely because of his origin, but also because he spent 12 years training with his father to become Superman. It is more of a journey to get from Clark Kent to Superman, and in that sense it seems that he does more to earn being Superman than he does in the remake.

It is also a big part of the reason I like Nolan's take on Batman. He didn't just magically become Batman when his parents were killed, but there was a twenty year journey afterwards in which he slowly grows to become Batman.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Obviously he continues to learn after getting the suit in both versions, but everything in Man of Steel just seems to come to easy. In Man of Steel, he basically is Superman by birthright and that's that. It undermines the message of the film somewhat. In the original he was born with great powers, but he doesn't really understand them. He isn't Superman solely because of his origin, but also because he spent 12 years training with his father to become Superman. It is more of a journey to get from Clark Kent to Superman, and in that sense it seems that he does more to earn being Superman than he does in the remake.

That isn't true. He chooses to be Superman, which is the central theme of the entire film. Choice. He could join Zod, he could not reveal himself, he could not help Earth. Instead he chooses to become Earth's champion and at the cost of his race.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

That isn't true. He chooses to be Superman, which is the central theme of the entire film. Choice. He could join Zod, he could not reveal himself, he could not help Earth. Instead he chooses to become Earth's champion and at the cost of his race.

He does make the choice, but it his abilities I'm talking about. It isn't really believable that Superman is able to beat Zod as convincingly as he does given his lack of training. Heck, in the original he can't beat Zod even with his training. He only beats Zod because he outsmarts him in the original.

 

[blumatic]

Obviously he continues to learn after getting the suit in both versions, but everything in Man of Steel just seems to come to easy. In Man of Steel, he basically is Superman by birthright and that's that. It undermines the message of the film somewhat. In the original he was born with great powers, but he doesn't really understand them. He isn't Superman solely because of his origin, but also because he spent 12 years training with his father to become Superman. It is more of a journey to get from Clark Kent to Superman, and in that sense it seems that he does more to earn being Superman than he does in the remake.

It is also a big part of the reason I like Nolan's take on Batman. He didn't just magically become Batman when his parents were killed, but there was a twenty year journey afterwards in which he slowly grows to become Batman.

I get what your saying. But they didnt really emphasize the training. All they did was show stars and galaxies. What kind of training was it. It was a little vague. When I first saw STM when I was young, I couldnt tell he was training. I always asked myself, Why does he look so different when he becomes Superman. The age difference should change your look that drastically.

In Batman, Bruce has no powers. Everything he has he had to earn and make. (Didnt really earn the money to fund his crusade).

If we were to look at things another way, both film may have gotten it right. With Superman training for 12 years he flies as soon as we seem him.

In MOS, he struggles to fly at first (sort of the metaphor of the movie).

But I can see where your coming from though.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

He does make the choice, but it his abilities I'm talking about. It isn't really believable that Superman is able to beat Zod as convincingly as he does given his lack of training. Heck, in the original he can't beat Zod even with his training. He only beats Zod because he outsmarts him in the original.

You do realize that the abilities actually come easier in STM and Superman II right? Zod, Ursa and Non arrive on Earth and are fully capable of everything from flight to heat vision without so much as a blink of their eyes.

Not the case in MoS. There are growing pains and it takes real, genuine effort to fly. Remember Martha's words about a baby Clark having trouble breathing? Everything is more earned in MoS.

And lets not get ridiculous here. In Superman II, Superman handles all 3 Kryptonians at the same time.

In MoS, in the final battle between Zod and Superman, Zod has the training, Superman has the actual experience. He has lived with his abilities for 30+ years on Earth. He knows how to control them and thus that gives him even greater power. During the final battle Zod continues to adapt, to get stronger, faster, more powerful. Look at his heat vision, his flight. He starts to out speed Superman in the air. Hence the need to stop him when Superman does.

 

[blumatic]

He does make the choice, but it his abilities I'm talking about. It isn't really believable that Superman is able to beat Zod as convincingly as he does given his lack of training. Heck, in the original he can't beat Zod even with his training. He only beats Zod because he outsmarts him in the original.

Zod really had the upper hand in most of the fight in MOS. Superman was chasing Zod mostly. Zod sneaks behind him, spins SUperman around and throws him through buildings (reversal of Superman 2) , drags Superman through space, throws a satellite at him. It wasnt until the last minute where Superman gets Zod in a headlock and doesnt let go. Zod was the better fighter in MOS.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Zod really had the upper hand in most of the fight in MOS. Superman was chasing Zod mostly. Zod sneaks behind him, spins SUperman around and throws him through buildings (reversal of Superman 2) , drags Superman through space, throws a satellite at him. It wasnt until the last minute where Superman gets Zod in a headlock and doesnt let go. Zod was the better fighter in MOS.

Zod is the better fighter. Superman has a far greater grasp of his abilities. This is emphasized in how he overpowers Zod at the end.

 

[blumatic]

Zod is the better fighter. Superman has a far greater grasp of his abilities. This is emphasized in how he overpowers Zod at the end.

Zod never learned to mind his surroundings. Dont these villians have Continuing Villian Education classes at the Legion of Doom. SMH.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Zod never learned to mind his surroundings. Dont these villians have Continuing Villian Education classes at the Legion of Doom. SMH.

That is what happens when you are all blood and thunder. You make mistakes.

 

[PacificBoy]

Clark Kent: Why didn't you come with me?
Jor-El: We couldn't, Kal. As much as we wanted to, we couldn't. Your mother and I were as much a product of the failures of our world as Zod was.

I guess when you a made as opposed to born, you are programmed a certain way. You can stray from time to time but for the most part you need to function a certain way or else you cant function at all.

Yes, the theme of predestination vs free will is touched on, broadly in a Kryptonian vs Earthling way, but the movie has shown Jor-El to be a maverick in so many ways. Not only did he decide to have Kal-El birthed naturally, he is an accomplished badass on top of being a man of science. Jor-El obviously isn't a conventional thinker, and appears to have everything in his toolbox to adapt to another way of life on another planet.

I think the theme could have been brought out better if Jor-El didn't take Zod down in the beginning, if Jor-El was portrayed less as a renaissance man and just as a wise scientist-counselor type. Jor-El manhandling Zod also weakened Zod's presence as a physical threat when he finally faces off against Superman.

 

[PacificBoy]

Zod is the better fighter. Superman has a far greater grasp of his abilities. This is emphasized in how he overpowers Zod at the end.

I thought there was little between them in terms of strength, even from the get-go. Zod with his training could have easily broken out of the choke hold. My read is that he was suicidal at that juncture, but cruelly wanted Superman to do the deed.

 

[PacificBoy]

One thing I didn't like about MoS is that I didn't feel that Clark becoming Superman was really earned. He finds the ship, has a five minute conversation with Jor-El, puts on the suit and then he's Superman. In the original that sequence takes 12 years!

It also ruins the Jor-El/Kal-El relationship by having them barely even meet.

For an epic moment, the donning of the sult was done a little too matter-of-factly. But that's just me. Nothing beats the corresponding sequence in STM for sheer wonder and awe - Brando's voiceover, John Williams' First Flight starting as Superman appears in his suit and takes off.

Then again, with the tone established in MoS, such a scene might not fit.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I thought there was little between them in terms of strength, even from the get-go. Zod with his training could have easily broken out of the choke hold. My read is that he was suicidal at that juncture, but cruelly wanted Superman to do the deed.

You are underestimating all the years under the yellow Sun Clark has had. Zod was getting stronger, but he wasn't there yet. He clearly struggles with Clark. He couldn't break that hold.