Marvel Solicitions for February 2011

[JewishHobbit]

Well, I kind of sorta agree, but at the same time, I don't. I can agree it may feel pretty disjointed at first, but you kind of have to go at it with a certain mindset. Unlike a lot of things, the gutter space is much longer, and most of the time you're only getting a cause and effect, without most of the middle action that you traditionally get. Like, one of the best examples I remember being picked out was in the first issue, you see a prehistoric Vandal Savage break into a woman's hut, then the next panel you see him carrying her off, without really having the whole thing drawn out. You just have to fill in more gaps than traditionally is expected, and I think once you tackle it with that in mind it's easier to read. I mean, it definitely requires more thought and attention than more events of that nature, but it's not unreadable.

Huh, I didn't realize that was Vandal Savage. Cool.

I think the big problem with FC wasn't with Morrison's writing as much as the way the books were layed out. DC, if I remember correctly, stated something about how Final Crisis is stand alone but that wasn't true in the slightest. To understand the details you HAD to at least read the two issue Batman tie-ins and Superman Beyond. And Final Crisis Submit was also fairly necessary but not quite as much as the other two. So me going in, I didn't buy the Superman Beyond issues and the final issue of FC made no sense whatsoever.

If I had all the issues in the proper order upon the first read I think I'd have gotten more enjoyment out of it. Not to mention, Morrison doesn't really help new readers understand what's going on. As a new DC reader at the time I was lost towrad half of the crap that was going on because I had no idea who the New Gods were, or half the characters showing up, or what the Anti-Life Equation was, etc. I got the jist after a while but all in all I had a hard time with it.

But as I said, after getting it all and reading it properly I fell in love with the book. Add in the Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle mini as a lead-in and it was fantastic.

His rendition of Martian Manhunter's death was a joke though. Whoever wrote the oneshot that dealt with it more was a far more superior death for the character.

 

[Dread]

Since this has become a sort of "market analysis" topic, I may as well post these links from ICV2 about November 2010's comic sales. If someone makes a new topic with these links, cool.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18920.html

- For the third month in 2010, the top selling comic sold less than 100k copies. The month's top book was BATMAN: THE RETURN #1, which missed that mark by 500 copies. BATMAN, INC. #1 sold over 95.5k. No Marvel comic sold over 90k and DC ruled the Top 10, having 8 of them, as well as 13 within the Top 25. At this point DC can brag that Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison, not Brian M. Bendis, are the top ongoing series writers.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18913.html

- Comic sales in Nov. 2010 fell another 5.5%, and the gap between Marvel and DC narrowed. Marvel still was superior in dollar and unit share overall, but by so little that ICV2 has them in a near dead heat.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18918.html

- This is the Top 300 sales charts. It's a down month all around. Even the #300 title sold less than in prior months. The Top 100 is a near wasteland compared to even winter 2009. The 100th seller, KEVIN SMITH'S GREEN HORNET #9, sold less than 18k. Even a year ago, it was impossible to sell in the Top 100 without moving at least 20-21k.

More Marvel lowlights?

SPIDER-GIRL #1 sold at just under 24k. If debut sales are a peak, and it is common for issue two to see a 20% drop (at least), then sales of this by issue three could be very ugly. It may be an uphill battle to last longer than YOUNG ALLIES unless Marvel's sales expectations are low. And here is the irony (besides that the comic is good). SG #1 was promoted in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #648, which sold at #8 of the Top 10 with about 77k. That meant not even a third of ASM's audience gave a damn about that SPIDER-GIRL back up strip to bother trying out the debut issue, at least for $4.

Tom DeFalco once bragged about the sales of THUNDERSTRIKE in the 90's, once (falsely) claiming it outsold THOR. He can't do that these days. The relaunch sold under 16k and that was below the Top 110 even on a down month. Again, it's not a bad comic.

More bad signs? Look at the drop for AVENGERS ACADEMY. October's issue sold 30-31k. November's sold under 26k, losing something like 4,000-5,000 readers in one month. Drops of over 10% sales an issue for a comic that has been around over half a year are ugly, but are common throughout Marvel's line. DC's sales for many comics are low, but as some have stated in this topic, are steadier. DC has fewer, but more dedicated fans, while Marvel has a larger, but more disappointed and disgruntled, fan base. Which will win out? I should note the low sales on SHE-HULKS #1, which also co-stars a newer character. X-23 is out of the Top 50 by issue three, and DAKEN doesn't look far behind. GENERATION HOPE's debut is alright for a down month, but where will it end up? My point is what do all of these titles have in common? New, or newer, characters that launched at a $3.99 price tag. Marvel simply does not understand promotion, and if they do have no strategy other than an article at CBR or Newsarama, which hasn't been enough since, oh, about 2005. Cuba adapts more to the current times than Marvel editorial and corporate.

Marvel will take steps in 2011 to not launch new ongoing titles at $3.99, by launching NO new titles and by instead launching more mini's. By virtue of mini's ending and some cancellations, their line is trimmed. INCREDIBLE HULK, and ONLY that title, will go back to $2.99 from $3.99. These sort of baby steps would have been daring in early 2009, and appropriate in early 2010. By 2011, will they be too little, too late?

 

[runawayboulder]

Avengers went up in sales because of Rulk and Red Hood?!?!? That book hasn't had one good issue since the relaunch, yet Avengers Academy continues to free-fall.

Jesus Christ, Marvel readers wouldn't know a good comic if it punched them in the f**king nuts.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Avengers have characters that are nostalgic. Avengers Academy have characters that people don't give a crap about. I mean, there's Quicksilver, Pym, Justice, and Tigra, but those are hardly fan favorites compared to Spider-Man, Thor, Wolverine, etc.

And despite all the griping about Red Hulk, he has a lot of unspoken fans.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Red Hulk has been pretty damn good since Parker took over the character.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I've not read it but there you go

 

[hippie_hunter]

I've not read it but there you go

The character was awful under Loeb, he was an annoying Gary Stu who could kick everyone's ass for the sake of beating them up to make the character look awesome. Except it wasn't.

Parker on the other hand has decided to do use a very basic literary tool in his Hulk run. It's called characterization, something that Loeb's run has lacked. Parker doesn't write Rulk as a Gary Stu, he literally depowered the character so he can't just go off doing whatever and kicking everyone's ass for no reason. He gives Rulk some rather interesting motivations on why he's working with Rogers and Banner. He's putting Rulk in interesting situations.

It's not the greatest comic in the world, but Parker has turned a rather embarassingly bad comic, into a rather fun and enjoyable one.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Good to hear. I'd pick it up but I buy too much already. If something frees up in the future I may give it a shot.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I have to admit, even I liked the issue I read. Ross has gone from an obnoxious *****ebag rampaging his way across everyone in the Marvel universe to a broken, defeated man searching for redemption. He still retains enough of his brusque exterior to not admit that, but it's obvious from the fact that he's working with Steve and Bruce at all. He also seems to accept that he deserves whatever is thrown at him now, so there's an element of humility that the character was completely lacking before. If I had even a slightly passing interest in Ross at all, I might've actually stuck with Hulk after that one issue with the Thor guest appearance that I read.

 

[kguillou]

The guy punched The Watcher and told him to "SHUT THE F*** UP!!"....Rulk lost ALL my good will there.

 

[hippie_hunter]

The guy punched The Watcher and told him to "SHUT THE F*** UP!!"....Rulk lost ALL my good will there.

That was like 20 issues ago.....under a completely different writer. Rulk is nothing at all like that anymore.

 

[Dread]

If Ross has changed so much, why is he attacking the Fantastic Four in SPIDER-GIRL #1? And set to battle her in issue two? Eh, could be Paul Tobin not getting the memo.

I'll be the first to jump on the Jeff Parker bandwagon; I simply have no interest in Red Hulk. I mean, I adore Dan Slott, but not even he got me to pay money for She-Hulk comics (and by all accounts I am sure they're as good as everyone says). Same as how no one can get Corp to crack on DAREDEVIL.

That said, if Ross/Rulk is trying to redeem himself, he might be better for the THUNDERBOLTS, that Parker also writes, than the AVENGERS, which he doesn't. Of course, that would give Juggernaut less to do. But it's not like having two tankers has ever destroyed a team. The JLA have functioned fine with Superman, Wonder Woman and J'Onn all having most of the exact same powers. Prior Avengers rosters had some combos of Thor, Hercules, and/or Wonder Man (or even Goliath or Giant-Man if you want to get technical). Only having two tankers with crappy writing has been boring.

Avengers went up in sales because of Rulk and Red Hood?!?!? That book hasn't had one good issue since the relaunch, yet Avengers Academy continues to free-fall.

Jesus Christ, Marvel readers wouldn't know a good comic if it punched them in the f**king nuts.

Avengers have characters that are nostalgic. Avengers Academy have characters that people don't give a crap about. I mean, there's Quicksilver, Pym, Justice, and Tigra, but those are hardly fan favorites compared to Spider-Man, Thor, Wolverine, etc.

And despite all the griping about Red Hulk, he has a lot of unspoken fans.

I am greatly disappointed at the tumble of AVENGERS ACADEMY. It had a solid debut, but within about 7 issues it is now below the lowest sales rank that it's "mother" title, AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE, once had (which was 28k for one month before SIEGE boosted it's sales). One could claim that those B and C list Avengers like Pym and Quicksilver were previously part of MIGHTY AVENGERS, which never fell below 31k. Maybe Dan Slott is a better draw? Maybe Hercules and U.S. Agent mattered THAT much for sales? I digress. The point I made above is how retailers and fans seem to rarely give new blood characters a chance, even if by "new blood" we mean characters who have been around for 6-8 years, like Arana, X-23, or the cast of YOUNG ALLIES. It's chicken or egg syndrome. Fans and retailers have no faith that newer characters will last, so they don't buy. Marvel immediately cancels newer characters' titles at the first sign of struggle, and either shuttles them into limbo or in secondary mini's that don't sell for the same reason. The question of how to get a character into the mainstream remains unanswered. Even Bendis isn't the answer; while characters like Hood, Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, Mockingbird, Iron Fist, Purple Man, Noh-Varr, etc. may get a lot of publicity in AVENGERS/NEW AVENGERS, they cannot sell outside of that. Hood's DARK REIGN mini sold like bupkiss. SHADOWLAND: POWER MAN tanked so badly that Fred Van Lente is lucky a sequel mini was approved before sales figures were known. And you wouldn't even know that Luke Cage had a mini series within the last 12 months, because it sold THAT poorly. Bendis has personally tried writing a SPIDER-WOMAN mini twice, and both times it was canc-- I mean, "put on hiatus" within under 9 issues.

Of course, Marvel also has been having trouble with keeping "unwanted" B or C list characters around even if they're very old. The markets seems to never support a BLACK PANTHER book. And if not even Bendis can sell MOON KNIGHT for as long as Husten did in 2006-2007, then he's in trouble. Hercules' saga had to be sold as mini's once his ongoing tanked (which itself a stealth take over of INCREDIBLE HULK - similar tactics with Daken/DARK WOLVERINE severely damaged the Wolverine franchise, and I doubt DAREDEVIL's audience will give T'Challa a chance). And despite one of the most tenacious efforts in modern history, AGENTS OF ATLAS/ATLAS did not catch on. So it becomes a serious question; if fans are tired of the same ol', why do neither they or retailers support newer blood, and why can't Marvel figure a way to offer it so they might?

AVENGERS ACADEMY has proven to be a solid "gateway comic" for some newer readers - I can attest to personally getting at least 1-3 readers who have read few Marvel comics before hooked onto that. Hooked as in "went into a shop and bought up all the back issues". Now I have to convince them to remain in the universe after they've learned about the very real possibility that AA may not last past issue ten, or twelve. And as fun as ARCADE: DEATH GAME seems to be, with an ACADEMY/YOUNG ALLIES crossover, I wouldn't be looking forward to the sales figures on that if I was it's editor. It has 17k or less written all over it. While 28k for AA is well above cancellation range, with sales drops of over 10% a month still happening, it could be below that threshold by December or January.

Robert Kirkman once chastised Marvel for never giving anything a chance. Ironically, his own IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN lasted 12 issues, a threshold that so few new (or re) launches these days have reached.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I think maybe a part of not giving the new kids a chance in Avengers Academy is that there's nothing unique there. We've all read student books before and almost always most of them vanish into obscurity. Also, Academy is pretty much still the Initiative. Yeah, it's a new title but this is basically the exact same thing save for the 50 State Initiative bit. C-list Avengers train kids to be heroes. There's a few little things worked in to make it different but it's basically the same thing and, while I liked the premise, a lot of people are probably getting bored with it. It's devolved from an interesting boot camp premise to just another student book, which we've been reading here and there since New Mutants or older. The only saving grace then would be the students being interesting but they're all fairly generic so there's not as much of a draw there either.

I don't know, just my thinking out loud.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hank Pym is an Avengers founder, not a C-lister.

 

[Dread]

I think maybe a part of not giving the new kids a chance in Avengers Academy is that there's nothing unique there. We've all read student books before and almost always most of them vanish into obscurity. Also, Academy is pretty much still the Initiative. Yeah, it's a new title but this is basically the exact same thing save for the 50 State Initiative bit. C-list Avengers train kids to be heroes. There's a few little things worked in to make it different but it's basically the same thing and, while I liked the premise, a lot of people are probably getting bored with it. It's devolved from an interesting boot camp premise to just another student book, which we've been reading here and there since New Mutants or older. The only saving grace then would be the students being interesting but they're all fairly generic so there's not as much of a draw there either.

I don't know, just my thinking out loud.

But, see, Marvel has NEVER QUIT on the X-Academy thing. NEW MUTANTS is back, and they're not even "new" anymore, they're 1980's characters and mostly in their 20's. They had ACADEMY X/NEW X-MEN/YOUNG X-MEN, and now they have GENERATION HOPE. Technically, GENERATION X staggered into the new century before ending (I think).

The Avengers are hotter than the X-Men are right now, so in their ACADEMY shouldn't be taking this soon out of the gate. Now, to be fair, it likely will see an issue 9-10, which is already better than ATLAS, YOUNG ALLIES, DOCTOR VOODOO, SWORD, or likely SPIDER-GIRL (yeah, dead by issue six or seven, I will call it now). A:TI never fell below 28k and spent most of it's time over 30k. It was boosted or involved in every event, but it also had far more of a negative tone (all the conspiracy/corruption stuff) and a far larger and harder to keep track of cast of dozens. Why did it last 35 issues, but ACADEMY will struggle to last for a third as long?

$3.99 debut issues for what are otherwise $2.99 ongoing series are a short sighted idea all around. But something that doesn't get into the head of David Gabriel, because he likely has not went out and bought comics with a limited budget for at least 10-15 years, is that for most fans, the more $4 books there are at the top of the sales charts, i.e. the "big popular" ones, the less free cash it gives to try anything new, or stay on anything that is seen as "not important". Picture this; someone who was buying three Avengers books at $2.99 could afford a 4th. But if they are $3.99, that 4th is cut. On a grander, wider scale, this is what has happened to Marvel's B, C, and D list titles. Both retailers and fans have less of a budget, and are thus less willing to try, or stick with, ANY title that isn't "important". Marvel (and DC) have trained their fans to only buy the important books, because they "matter" more than quality. The difference? DC hasn't spammed $3.99 comics as much, so more of their C and D list titles can keep a consistent audience, even if they are a small group of, say, 18k or so. They also aren't as trigger happy with struggling books, which more commonly last beyond a year even when it seems ludicrous that they do. BOOSTER GOLD has lasted over 41 issues and counting. I can't think of a relaunched Marvel title of a C-List hero that lasted that long without a relaunch, a reprice, a renumber, a re-WTF in a long time. MS. MARVEL was perhaps the last, as she staggered to 50 issues, but then she called it a series. So long as most, if not all, of the Marvel comics that sell in the Top 30 are $3.99, that is less of a budget for most of their fans and retailers. The fact that I understand this dynamic and I don't have a fancy business degree or sales experience, but a six figure salary man like Gabriel clearly doesn't is both appalling, pathetic, and a symbol of why the U.S. economic system is in shambles.

Hank Pym is an Avengers founder, not a C-lister.

He's a B-Lister at best. Tigra is very close to a C-Lister, even if Christos Gage has handled her very well.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Pym is an A-lister, goddamnit. An A+-lister. An S-lister if we're on the Capcom scale.

 

[Dread]

Pym is an A-lister, goddamnit. An A+-lister. An S-lister if we're on the Capcom scale.

You can't be an A-Lister if you can't carry your own book, or haven't successfully in a very long time. That is what separates Wolverine from Black Panther, Daredevil from Darkhawk. Pym hasn't even supported a three issue mini series alone lately (Eric O'Grady has to share the title with him). Regardless of his coolness or worth as a character, that alone limits him to B-List. But that's not the worst place to be. B-Listers still appear a lot.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Whatever, Dread, I'm not going to subscribe to your arbitrary labels. Pym is better than you and that's enough for me.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Pym's boring. Slott's the only person who's ever made me care about him and that was only a little. I kinda feel like he's lost something in Academy and if not for O'Grady I wouldn't have even bothered with the first issue of the mini. Still not sure if I'll finish it or not.

And I've only really liked Pym as Wasp due to Slott. His going back to Giant Man makes me care less.

Oh, and Janet and Wonder Man = same boat as Pym.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Then that's a personal problem you have with not being able to recognize awesome characters.

Granted, I could go for a Pym that's more like the cartoon version right about now. Tim Seeley's giving us a very "Huzzah, SCIENCE!" version, like the cartoon's, in Ant-Man and the Wasp right now, which I think is part of why that series is clicking with so many people. Pym seems to excel when writers accentuate his weirdness (Slott) or geekiness (Seeley). Gage's version is slightly too competent to be considered the black sheep and not really geeky enough to be entertaining. But I blame that more on the fact that Academy is not his book; he gets a couple pages per issue, at most, and it's hard to really make a character stand out with so little time.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I need to watch that cartoon sometime. I only caught about half of one episode having to do with Thor but I keep forgetting about it. I should tape it.

 

[Dread]

I thought Slott sometimes delved TOO much into his weird side for the purpose of some "shocking" moments - like sex with Jocasta or asking Loki to join the Avengers, or even picking a fight with Mr. Fantastic. I mean, c'mon. I do like Seeley's approach as well as the approach to the cartoon. Gage's approach I don't mind. But, again, Pym in ACADEMY has had a supporting role so far, so it's harder for him to stand out as much. I don't mind him being efficient without having to wear his "IMMA FREAK" shirt on all the time. I mean, both Mr. Fantastic and Peter Parker have abused their wives and done weirdo things over the years, but they haven't been as branded by it as Pym has.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, Slott really did go overboard with the weird at times. But it was certainly memorable, at least.

I need to watch that cartoon sometime. I only caught about half of one episode having to do with Thor but I keep forgetting about it. I should tape it.

You might not like it as much as others, actually. It's very much a modernization of the old '60s Avengers comics, and it pays homage to that storytelling style (with exclamations everywhere) and a lot of the classic stories and characters from back then. I know you didn't really care about the Avengers at all until Bendis took over and made them decidedly un-Avengery.

Still, it's worth at least checking out a few episodes.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I don't really get the Hank sex with Jacosta thing. I don't think that was ever really touched on in the comic, just fan speculation. I know there were a few scenes when Jarvis would walk in and it looked like it but it was just a bad angle of Hank doing some repair work on her heart or whatever. Are those what people are talking about?

And while we're on the topic of Mighty Avengers for a second... for all the crap I give Dan over Amazing Spider-Man, I sat down and reread most of his Mighty Avengers run the other day and I was surprised how much more I liked it the second go around. I'll even go so far as to say (and this is a 'duh' moment for most of you though I never agreed) it was the best Avengers book in years. I like Bendis for the most part but that was a great run.

I think it was the characters really. Something about having Cho and Hercules really worked, then throw in Vision 2.0 and Stature for the young croud and you have some chemistry that really carried the title. Cho and Stature got to know one another and I thought that was fitting (and Cho seemed to have a bit of a crush, which was cute). Then add in polar opposites USAgent and Hank Pym, along with Jacosta and Jarvis as supporting roles and it was a solid team. Even Quicksilver, a bit of the outsider, added to the story due to the Scarlet Witch and tension of what was going to happen there. Even the regular guest appearances by the other Young Avengers added to everything. And the storylines all tied-in with each other really well. The characterisations were fantastic and how they influenced one another with other characterisations and plot, it was well thought out and almost epic feeling for as small a book as it was. It was similar to Slott's run on Initiative in that way.

I was debating on selling those to Half Priced Books but now I think I'm keeping them separate from the rest of my Avengers books as a great read on their own.

I really do like Slott, I just wish he wasn't wasted on the mess that Amazing Spider-Man's become.

 

[Dread]

I like Slott on ASM "BIG TIME" right now and I did like his run of MIGHTY AVENGERS.