MCU Tag Team Battle (Crossover): Toby, MCU, & Garfield Spider-Men Vs QS, Cap, & Black Panther

[BigThor]

Cap and Black Panther are more or less equals, though Panther has the advantage with the suit. But physically, they are basically equal.

The suit is the whole reason I say Black Panther the biggest threat. If someone is more or less your equal and they have a vibranium suit that is bulletproof with an assortment of different high tech weapons as well storing and redirecting kinetic energy back to their opponents they are bigger threat than you.

 

[Batmannerism]

I think you're massively underestimating the gap in strength between the super soldiers and the Spider-Men. It's not quite Daredevil vs Hulk but it's far bigger than the gap between an adult and a ten year old (a typical adult male's 3.5 times stronger if you're curious)

Maguire's best strength feat (129 tonnes) is over 80 times better than Cap's best strength feat (1.5 tonnes) and 64 times better than Panther's best strength feat (1.7 tonnes).

Garfield's weaker but his best strength feat (16 tonnes) is still roughly ten times better than Cap and Panther.



I really don't buy this. Garfield is far stronger (see above) and also far faster.

The guy is a bullet timer (his best feat is casually dodging 768mph machine gun fire). This makes him four times faster than Panther's best reaction feat (catching arrows which can go up to 200mph) and over ten times faster than Cap's best reaction feat (leaping out the way of a car crash, potentially 70mph).



I agree, Cap and Panther are the most skilled fighters here and skill does matter.
It matters that unlike Holland in Civil War, Garfield as of ASM2 and Maguire as of SM3 are competent fighters in tune with their powers (including their spider sense).

As skilled as MCU Cap and Panther are, they're not skilled enough to beat someone competent who's ten times stronger and ten times faster (Garfield) or someone competent and comparably fast who's over 60 times stronger (Maguire).



The vibranium suit definitely makes a difference. Cap can be taken down fairly quickly with overwhelming strength/speed, whereas with T'Challa it's not that simple. They can still web him up though.


I still think it's Quicksilver. Cap and Panther are just too out of their league for strength and speed (see above) whereas Quicksilver at least has his speed advantage to cause trouble with. I don't think QS hits hard enough though and sooner or later he'll take a hit from someone with spider-sense and go down.

First with respect to Maguire's train stop this is more of a durability feat than a strength feat - impressive nonetheless. He holds the web strands together which are what actually provide the stopping force for the train ( as well as running through the barrier). It's not like he pushed against the train and stopped it - in that way its similar to Holland holding the ferry together. If Maguire had lifted the train or stood in front of it and exerted force on it that made him stop that would give him Hulk-like strength - and would back up your claim that he is 60 times stronger than Cap. However he doesn't do either of these, which is why I assert that while clearly stronger than Cap the difference is not as great as you suggest.

When Cap stops the helicopter taking off at the start he is exerting enough force to stop it lifting off with his bare hands. When he grabs the rail as an anchor he actually pulls helicopter down. He is exerting all the stopping force - a strength and durability feat. Don't get me wrong Maguire's feat is much more impressive, but I suggest that it isn't indicative of the vast strength advantage you suggest.

Holland is able to hold up the airport gantry, which probably weighs a few tons, after Cap crumples its supports ( watch how far he flies after Cap kicks him). So clearly he's very strong...but that still doesn't prevent him getting his ass kicked by Cap

Second. Garfield's "bullet time" reflexes. They work great against bullets. But, if his reflexes are so great no enemy should be able to lay a hand on him, right? Wrong. The Lizard is able to grab and strike Spidey a bunch of times, as does the Green Goblin ( although he's a bit distracted trying to save Gwen).

Similarly Maguire gets tagged by Harry Osborn , Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Sandman and Venom. Like Garfield he's great at dodging projectiles but in close quarters he can still get hit.

What I'm saying is that you are seriously overselling the strength and speed of Maguire and Garfield. Holland...well we already know.



Anyway

 

[BigThor]

First with respect to Maguire's train stop this is more of a durability feat than a strength feat - impressive nonetheless. He holds the web strands together which are what actually provide the stopping force for the train ( as well as running through the barrier). It's not like he pushed against the train and stopped it - in that way its similar to Holland holding the ferry together. If Maguire had lifted the train or stood in front of it and exerted force on it that made him stop that would give him Hulk-like strength - and would back up your claim that he is 60 times stronger than Cap. However he doesn't do either of these, which is why I assert that while clearly stronger than Cap the difference is not as great as you suggest.

When Cap stops the helicopter taking off at the start he is exerting enough force to stop it lifting off with his bare hands. When he grabs the rail as an anchor he actually pulls helicopter down. He is exerting all the stopping force - a strength and durability feat. Don't get me wrong Maguire's feat is much more impressive, but I suggest that it isn't indicative of the vast strength advantage you suggest.

Holland is able to hold up the airport gantry, which probably weighs a few tons, after Cap crumples its supports ( watch how far he flies after Cap kicks him). So clearly he's very strong...but that still doesn't prevent him getting his ass kicked by Cap

Second. Garfield's "bullet time" reflexes. They work great against bullets. But, if his reflexes are so great no enemy should be able to lay a hand on him, right? Wrong. The Lizard is able to grab and strike Spidey a bunch of times, as does the Green Goblin ( although he's a bit distracted trying to save Gwen).

Similarly Maguire gets tagged by Harry Osborn , Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Sandman and Venom. Like Garfield he's great at dodging projectiles but in close quarters he can still get hit.

What I'm saying is that you are seriously overselling the strength and speed of Maguire and Garfield. Holland...well we already know.



Anyway

Yeah Maguire is definitely not a 100 tonner, he actually tried to stop the train by planting his feet and pushing against it which failed. It was only with the use of the barrier, his webs, and the buildings they were attached too that he was able to finally stop it, but it's still impressive nonetheless. I'd say Maguire Spider-Man is somewhere between a 30 tonner and 50 tonner, which would make him atleast 20 times stronger than Cap which is still a humongous gap.

 

[Batmannerism]

Yeah Maguire is definitely not a 100 tonner, he actually tried to stop the train by planting his feet and pushing against it which failed. It was only with the use of the barrier, his webs, and the buildings they were attached too that he was able to finally stop it, but it's still impressive nonetheless. I'd say Maguire Spider-Man is somewhere between a 30 tonner and 50 tonner, which would make him atleast 20 times stronger than Cap which is still a humongous gap.

Sorry dude, can't agree with you there. What strength feat of lifting those amounts do we have to base that on. ?

He holds up the cable car in Spider Man, but only supports its weight, he doesn't actually lift it.

Comic book Spidey can lift 10 tons, I feel thats about where Maguire fits in, maybe 20 tops. Based on his movie feats Cap can lift at least a ton maybe 2 - and he gets stronger with every film. Still, despite the big strength difference Cap hits extremely hard - particularly his front kick which is powerful enough to move a truck with sufficient force to flatten someone standing nearby. Cap's strikes had a similar level of effect on Thanos as Spider Man's and Cap's kick flattened Spidey in CW.

If this were the comic book versions then the answer would easily be Spidey beats Cap - but MCU is much more powerful than the comic book Cap.

 

[BigThor]

Sorry dude, can't agree with you there. What strength feat of lifting those amounts do we have to base that on. ?

He holds up the cable car in Spider Man, but only supports its weight, he doesn't actually lift it.

Comic book Spidey can lift 10 tons, I feel thats about where Maguire fits in, maybe 20 tops. Based on his movie feats Cap can lift at least a ton maybe 2 - and he gets stronger with every film. Still, despite the big strength difference Cap hits extremely hard - particularly his front kick which is powerful enough to move a truck with sufficient force to flatten someone standing nearby. Cap's strikes had a similar level of effect on Thanos as Spider Man's and Cap's kick flattened Spidey in CW.

If this were the comic book versions then the answer would easily be Spidey beats Cap - but MCU is much more powerful than the comic book Cap.

Stopping that train places Maguire WELL above 10 tons, webs or not the train was 129 tons going 80 miles per hour that's atleast a 30 ton strength feat (25 at the VERY least). Not to mention holding up that huge building wall while Doc Ock is destroying his invention and eventually lifting it over his head and throwing it (since lifting means so much around here). I'm sure that giant wall weighed more than that cable car which he held up one handed while in a disadvantageous position btw.

 

[Stormborn]

First with respect to Maguire's train stop this is more of a durability feat than a strength feat - impressive nonetheless. He holds the web strands together which are what actually provide the stopping force for the train ( as well as running through the barrier).It's not like he pushed against the train and stopped it - in that way its similar to Holland holding the ferry together.

Yeah Maguire is definitely not a 100 tonner, he actually tried to stop the train by planting his feet and pushing against it which failed. It was only with the use of the barrier, his webs, and the buildings they were attached too that he was able to finally stop it, but it's still impressive nonetheless. I'd say Maguire Spider-Man is somewhere between a 30 tonner and 50 tonner, which would make him atleast 20 times stronger than Cap which is still a humongous gap.

The fact he did it by using webs and pulling rather than planting his feet and pushing (which failed because the railroad sleepers kept breaking when he tried it) doesn't make it less of a strength feat. The guy had the strength to personally hold the webs that brought a 129 tonne train going 80mph to a near stop (maybe 10mph?) and then the barrier did the rest.

That being said, I'm happy to admit it's hard to calculate and lowball it as a 30 tonne feat (20 times stronger than Cap).

Meanwhile Garfield's best strength feat (stopping the 18 tonne bus and setting it upright) is roughly 10 times better than Cap and Panther.

Do you accept that both Maguire and Garfield are at least 10 times stronger than Cap/Panther Batmannerism?

If so, it's worth remembering that's almost three times the strength advantage an adult has over a ten year old.

Garfield's "bullet time" reflexes. They work great against bullets. But, if his reflexes are so great no enemy should be able to lay a hand on him, right? Wrong. The Lizard is able to grab and strike Spidey a bunch of times, as does the Green Goblin ( although he's a bit distracted trying to save Gwen).

In ASM1 Garfield wasn't an experienced fighter and wasn't in tune with his powers yet (a bit like Holland in Civil War, although not quite that bad). Hence Lizard (who's also far faster than a human) was able to tag him.
By the time ASM2 came round, Garfield was far faster and tuned in to his spider sense to the point of casually dodging bullets and Electro needing to level half a power station with a barrage of electricity just to hit him. He was clearly faster than Goblin (who again, had superhuman speed of his own) and only took hits from him when he was trying to hold the webline Gwen was hanging from and so couldn't dodge.

I stand by my ten times faster than Cap's best speed feat claim.

Similarly Maguire gets tagged by Harry Osborn , Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Sandman and Venom. Like Garfield he's great at dodging projectiles but in close quarters he can still get hit.

Maguire's speed feats (e.g. twisting through a two small gaps in a walkway plus a crowd of people whilst moving faster than a train) are hard to quantify.

I definitely think he's faster than Cap/Panther but he's nowhere near as fast as Garfield so I agree they can realistically hit him a few times (like the superhumanly fast opponents you listed above were able to). It's his huge strength advantage and his webbing (plus the durability to shrug off hits from them) that gives him the win over Cap and Panther.

Holland is able to hold up the airport gantry, which probably weighs a few tons, after Cap crumples its supports ( watch how far he flies after Cap kicks him). So clearly he's very strong...but that still doesn't prevent him getting his ass kicked by Cap

I've already agreed that strength matters but isn't everything several times. Holland had a strength advantage over Cap but was too much of a rookie to exploit it. Other than that, the Cap vs Holland fight doesn't prove anything about how a Cap vs Maguire or Cap vs Garfield fight would go down.

The key differences are:
1) As of ASM2 and SM3 they're far, far more competent and in tune with their powers than Holland was. Holland in Civil War lost because he barely knew how to throw a punch, had no experience fighting superhumans and isn't tuned in to his spider sense.
2) Cap was faster than Holland, an advantage he doesn't have against the adult Spider-Men, especially Garfield.
3) Maguire is stronger and more durable than Holland.

 

[BigThor]

The fact he did it by using webs and pulling rather than planting his feet and pushing (which failed because the railroad sleepers kept breaking when he tried it) doesn't make it less of a strength feat. The guy had the strength to personally hold the webs that brought a 129 tonne train going 80mph to a near stop (maybe 10mph?) and then the barrier did the rest.

That being said, I'm happy to admit it's hard to calculate and lowball it as a 30 tonne feat (20 times stronger than Cap).

Meanwhile Garfield's best strength feat (stopping the 18 tonne bus and setting it upright) is roughly 10 times better than Cap and Panther.

Do you accept that both Maguire and Garfield are at least 10 times stronger than Cap/Panther Batmannerism?

If so, it's worth remembering that's almost three times the strength advantage an adult has over a ten year old.


In ASM1 Garfield wasn't an experienced fighter and wasn't in tune with his powers yet (a bit like Holland in Civil War, although not quite that bad). Hence Lizard (who's also far faster than a human) was able to tag him.
By the time ASM2 came round, Garfield was far faster and tuned in to his spider sense to the point of casually dodging bullets and Electro needing to level half a power station with a barrage of electricity just to hit him. He was clearly faster than Goblin (who again, had superhuman speed of his own) and only took hits from him when he was trying to hold the webline Gwen was hanging from and so couldn't dodge.

I stand by my ten times faster than Cap's best speed feat claim.


Maguire's speed feats (e.g. twisting through a two small gaps in a walkway plus a crowd of people whilst moving faster than a train) are hard to quantify.

I definitely think he's faster than Cap/Panther but he's nowhere near as fast as Garfield so I agree they can realistically hit him a few times (like the superhumanly fast opponents you listed above were able to). It's his huge strength advantage (plus the durability to shrug off hits from them) that gives him the win over Cap and Panther.



I've already agreed that strength matters but isn't everything several times. Holland had a strength advantage over Cap but was too much of a rookie to exploit it. Other than that, the Cap vs Holland fight doesn't prove anything about how a Cap vs Maguire or Cap vs Garfield fight would go down.

The key differences are:
1) As of ASM2 and SM3 they're far, far more competent and in tune with their powers than Holland was. Holland in Civil War lost because he barely knew how to throw a punch, had no experience fighting superhumans and isn't tuned in to his spider sense.
2) Cap was faster than Holland, an advantage he doesn't have against the adult Spider-Men, especially Garfield.
3) Maguire is stronger and more durable than Holland.

Holland is slow as molasses compared to the other Spider-Men now that I think about it.

 

[Batmannerism]

[QUOTE="Stormborn, post: 37215965,

Do you accept that both Maguire and Garfield are at least 10 times stronger than Cap/Panther Batmannerism?
.[/QUOTE]

I think that's fair - perhaps in terms of raw lifting strength - but then so is Iron Man. Holland probably isn't that far off either, but lifting strength alone doesn't win fights.

 

[Stormborn]

I think that's fair - perhaps in terms of raw lifting strength - but then so is Iron Man. Holland probably isn't that far off either, but lifting strength alone doesn't win fights.

Like I said in my last post, I agree strength isn't everything, but when the gap in strength is larger than the gap between an adult and a ten year old then that's a hell of an advantage in both grappling and striking power.

And I've already said my piece on why the Garfield/Maguire Spider-Men are far more dangerous opponents than Holland:

Holland had a strength advantage over Cap but was too much of a rookie to exploit it. The Cap vs Holland fight doesn't prove anything about how a Cap vs Maguire or Cap vs Garfield fight would go down.

The key differences are:
1) As of ASM2 and SM3 they're far, far more competent and in tune with their powers than Holland was. Holland in Civil War lost because he barely knew how to throw a punch, had no experience fighting superhumans and isn't tuned in to his spider sense.
2) Cap was faster than Holland, an advantage he doesn't have against the adult Spider-Men, especially Garfield.
3) Maguire is stronger and more durable than Holland.

As for Cap beating Iron Man, it's a cool feat but let's break it down

a) Cap had faster reactions than Iron Man so he was able to keep his stronger opponent off balance for a while. On the other hand Cap isn't just weaker than the Spider-Men, he's also slower than Maguire and far slower than Garfield.
b) Cap only did as well as he did against Iron Man because it was a two on one fight, the underground bunker massively favoured their fighting style, Tony's suit was damaged and Tony was holding back and trying to beat Cap non-lethally.
Cap/Panther won't have any of those plot related advantages in a fair fight against the Spider-Men.
c) It's worth remembering that once Bucky was taken out and it became a one on one fight Cap was losing. Tony got serious, overpowered/rag dolled Cap and told him "stay down, final warning". The Spider-Men aren't going to keep giving Cap second chances like that, they'll web him up.

In a fair fight with neither side holding back Iron Man would almost always beat Cap (and other Cap level opponents like BP) and the same is true for the Spider-Men.

 

[Batmannerism]

Like I said in my last post, I agree strength isn't everything, but when the gap in strength is larger than the gap between an adult and a ten year old then that's a hell of an advantage in both grappling and striking power

Striking power and grappling both come from skill - again think of Royce Gracie beating guys much bigger and stronger than him (think of an 80 pound weight advantage). Cap's shield has blocked Thor's hammer, and Cap has taken multiple full on punches to the face from Iron Man as well as point blank range repulsor blasts.

As for Cap defeating Iron Man, first there is no such thing as a fair fight, second it only took Cap a split second of distraction to gain the upper hand to completely dominate and destroy Iron Man. All three Spider Men suffer from need to talk while fighting - Maguire the least and Holland the most. Holland and Garfield's cockiness gives Cap an advantage - and he's a tactical genius, again who has fought in some of the worst battles of history and killed people without hesitation.

Having rewatched some of Cap and the Spideys' fight scenes I am certain that only Maguire has a serious chance of beating Cap - and that's because in the fight in Harry's penthouse in SM 3 Maguire shows a bit of skill - and still gets repeatedly tagged ( by a fast, strong but unskilled opponent).

We are not going to agree on this, but it has been a discussion. However, I suspect the poll will come down on your side, we shall wait and see.

 

[BigThor]

Yeah people act as if Cap straight up beat Iron Man, he didn't and if Bucky hadn't of intervened or even been there in the first place Cap would've been killed.

 

[Batmannerism]

Yeah people act as if Cap straight up beat Iron Man, he didn't and if Bucky hadn't of intervened or even been there in the first place Cap would've been killed.

If Bucky hadn't been there they never would have fought in the first place. At no point does Iron Man try to kill Cap. He wants to beat the crap out of him, and does so. But I don't believe that he wants to kill Cap, no matter how angry and hurt he is. The flipside is that at no point does Cap want or try to kill Tony, because if he wanted to he could have administered a coup de gras and crushed Tony's skull, rather than just disabling the arc reactor.

 

[BigThor]

If Bucky hadn't been there they never would have fought in the first place. At no point does Iron Man try to kill Cap. He wants to beat the crap out of him, and does so. But I don't believe that he wants to kill Cap, no matter how angry and hurt he is. The flipside is that at no point does Cap want or try to kill Tony, because if he wanted to he could have administered a coup de gras and crushed Tony's skull, rather than just disabling the arc reactor.

Tony was definitely going to blast Cap through that opening and off the side of that cliff if Bucky hadn't grabbed his leg.

 

[Batmannerism]

Tony was definitely going to blast Cap through that opening and off the side of that cliff if Bucky hadn't grabbed his leg.

Would he have blasted Cap, yes. Off the side of the cliff, I doubt it. Throughout that fight if he wanted Cap dead he probably would have used different weapons - could he have killed Cap, hard to say, but IMO he never even tries, although he definitely wants to beat Cap senseless.

 

[BigThor]

Would he have blasted Cap, yes. Off the side of the cliff, I doubt it. Throughout that fight if he wanted Cap dead he probably would have used different weapons - could he have killed Cap, hard to say, but IMO he never even tries, although he definitely wants to beat Cap senseless.

Right outside of that opening Cap was standing in front of was a direct fall of a steep cliff.

 

[Stormborn]

For the record, this is how I'd rank the characters we've talked about in the power tiers:

Top Tier (Street to block level)
Iron Man (pre-Infinity War)*
Spider-Man (Garfield)
Spider-Man (Maguire)
Quicksilver

Superhuman Tier (Street Level)
Black Panther
Captain America
Spider-Man (Holland)**

*Iron Man's power level does seem to go up and down with his suits though. The Mk XLVI from Civil War seems to be one of his weaker ones.

**Holland's already more powerful than Cap/Panther, I only place him below them because he's an unskilled rookie who isn't tuned into his powers. Once he grows up a bit and learns the ropes he'll surpass Cap and BP.

 

[Batmannerism]

For the record, this is how I'd rank the characters we've talked about in the power tiers:

Top Tier (Street to block level)
Iron Man (pre-Infinity War)*
Spider-Man (Garfield)
Spider-Man (Maguire)
Quicksilver

Superhuman Tier (Street Level)
Black Panther
Captain America
Spider-Man (Holland)**

*Iron Man's power level does seem to go up and down with his suits though. The Mk XLVI from Civil War seems to be one of his weaker ones.

**Holland's already more powerful than Cap/Panther, I only place him below them because he's an unskilled rookie who isn't tuned into his powers. Once he grows up a bit and learns the ropes he'll surpass Cap and BP.

I would have put Garfield a lot further down, maybe just above BP and Cap. Sure he has a bit of raw power, but he's not even close to Maguire in terms of feats. Maguire's feats of strength, toughness and his spider sense ( the car through the window was truly impresive).

Maguire is the one Spider Man I really rate in terms of fighting because his feats are so impressive, and he's the least cocky. In a fight between the three of them Maguire would stomp both Garfield and Holland into the ground - and of course he's not going to run out of webbing. Having said all that Holland is still my favourite Spidey - because he really embodies what Spider Man is all about, a cheerful, super-smart, up-beat kid who's really out of his depth, desperate to prove himself and far from perfect but still likeable.

 

[Stormborn]

I would have put Garfield a lot further down, maybe just above BP and Cap. Sure he has a bit of raw power, but he's not even close to Maguire in terms of feats. Maguire's feats of strength, toughness and his spider sense ( the car through the window was truly impresive). Maguire is the one Spider Man I really rate in terms of fighting because his feats are so impressive, and he's the least cocky. In a fight between the three of them Maguire would stomp both Garfield and Holland into the ground - and of course he's not going to run out of webbing.

I think you're underestimating Garfield Spidey:

• Garfield is significantly faster than Maguire. By the time he hits his prime in ASM2 the guy has multiple bullet time feats and it takes a barrage of electricity to tag him.
• Garfield also has an edge in skill and spider-sense (swatting away missiles with webbing and a manhole cover, reacting within seconds to catch a car and save two bystanders he never even looked at from an electrified rail).
• Their webbing and agility is roughly equal. Garfield can theoretically run out of webs but since one cartridge saw him through back to back fights with Electro and Goblin I can't see it happening.
• Maguire definitely has the edge in strength feats (stopping the train, lifting and throwing the collapsing wall) but we never saw the upper limit of Garfield Spidey's strength. That 16 tonne feat with the bus was pretty casual which to me suggests his upper limit is higher.
• Maguire has some great blunt force durability feats (the beating he took from Sandman and Venom was brutal) so I'd definitely give him the edge there but again we never saw the upper limit of Garfield Spidey's durability. We did see him tank a ridiculous amount of electricity and we know from his early days he can keep running with a gunshot wound to the leg and take hits from Lizard.

Overall I'd say Garfield vs Maguire is a pretty close fight but Garfield's speed/spider-sense advantage feels like the deciding factor for me.

Having said all that Holland is still my favourite Spidey - because he really embodies what Spider Man is all about, a cheerful, super-smart, up-beat kid who's really out of his depth, desperate to prove himself and far from perfect but still likeable.

In my book Spider-Man PS4 and the Spectacular Spider-Man are the best adaptations, none of the big screen Spider-Men have nailed it yet

• Maguire's the weakest actor and his Spidey's a bit camp/goofy but he had two good films with the best villains.
• Garfield's a great actor, I liked his supporting cast and I love that he nails the way Spidey quips mid fight. Ultimately though, the ASM films have some weak writing, too many sub plots and second rate villains.
• Holland's a good actor (and actually the right age to play a high schooler) but I just don't find it as entertaining watching a rookie Spidey screw up and get bailed out by Iron Man/Iron Man tech over and over. Plus he spent most of Homecoming with proving he's good enough for the Avengers as his main motive and that felt really out of character and hard to empathise with.

 

[Batmannerism]

• M2aguire's the weakest actor and his Spidey's a bit camp/goofy but he had two good films with the best villains.
• Garfield's a great actor, I liked his supporting cast and I love that he nails the way Spidey quips mid fight. Ultimately though, the ASM films have some weak writing, too many sub plots and second rate villains.
• Holland's a good actor (and actually the right age to play a high schooler) but I just don't find it as entertaining watching a rookie Spidey screw up and get bailed out by Iron Man/Iron Man tech over and over. Plus he spent most of Homecoming with proving he's good enough for the Avengers as his main motive and that felt really out of character and hard to empathise with.

Clearly your membership of the Andrew Garfield fan club is paid up...
just kidding. He is a very good actor - I haven't seen Hacksaw Ridge but I know he can hold his own on screen with top notch actors.

What I dislike about Garfield's version of Spider Man is that while he was a good Spidey his Peter Parker was a bit of a *****e bag - at least in the first film. That's the writer's fault more than Garfield's but I feel like they got Peter terribly wrong. Neither he nor Maguire are convincing as teenagers.

Maguire benefits from some good writing ( except the "weaker and stronger" speech), strong supporting casts and despite his moping, self doubt and Kirsten Dunst's singing is essentially likeable. He was great in the first two films but suffered from too many cringey moments in SM 3. Still, I think he would beat Garfield senseless.

My only gripe with Homecoming is that ultimately Vulture defeated himself, rather than Spidey working out some clever way of overcoming him ( CF Maguire taking down Venom in the construction site- straight out of the comics and a straight up Spider Man plan. Awesome).

 

[Stormborn]

Yeah, Garfield's my favourite actor of the three and I do think the ASM films had some great spectacle/feats. The writing totally lets them down though, they wasted a lot of potential.

Which films are actually best is a totally different story:

Spider-Man 2 > Spider-Man > ASM1 > Homecoming > ASM2 > Spider-Man 3

 

[BigThor]

Yeah, Garfield's my favourite actor of the three and I do think the ASM films had some great spectacle/feats. The writing totally lets them down though, they wasted a lot of potential.

Which films are actually best is a totally different story:

Spider-Man 2 > Spider-Man > ASM1 > Homecoming > ASM2 > Spider-Man 3

I agree with this list, Spidey being rescued by Iron Man over and over ruined Homecoming for me.

 

[Batmannerism]

I agree with this list, Spidey being rescued by Iron Man over and over ruined Homecoming for me.

Ordinarily I would agree - but for some reason I enjoyed it. Maybe Spidey wasn't just a rookie superhero but actually a kid, I think he's meant to be 14 or 15 at the time. I wish the writers had let him beat Vulture with cleverness rather than have the villain's tech nearly kill him.

 

[Stormborn]

I agree with this list, Spidey being rescued by Iron Man over and over ruined Homecoming for me.

I wish the writers had let him beat Vulture with cleverness rather than have the villain's tech nearly kill him.

Those are my biggest complaint too but I actually think Homecoming mishandled Spidey on multiple levels.

• They undermined him as a young hero with huge potential by having him lose every last fight he's in. He loses 4 fights vs Vulture, 1 vs Shocker and even 1 vs henchmen robbing the ATM. He repeatedly needed rescuing, Iron Man saves him twice and even Ned saves him once.
• They undermined him as an everyman science prodigy who builds his own tech on a shoe string budget by giving him a billion dollar Stark suit with an AI that coaches him. Hell, they didn't even let Peter be the one to hack the suit, they had Ned to do it for him.
• They ignored the classic, tragedy driven, 'with great power comes great responsibility' motivation of the character by never even mentioning Uncle Ben and barely having him struggle with hard choices and balancing his dual lives. Instead he spends most of the film obsessing about proving himself to the other heroes and joining the Avengers.
• They messed up the supporting cast. Liz is a crush he barely knows, not a love interest. MJ is a totally new character with Mary Jane's initials. No sign of Gwen or Harry, instead they stole Ganke from Miles Morales' supporting cast and renamed him Ned. Aunt May is barely in the film and what ought to be a huge moment of her finding out Peter is Spider-Man is cut short by the credits and played for laughs.

Maybe Spidey wasn't just a rookie superhero but actually a kid, I think he's meant to be 14 or 15 at the time.

He's 15 in the Ultimate Spider-Man comics (my favourite version of the character) and the Spectacular Spider-Man animated series and they still nailed it.

 

[BigThor]

Those are my biggest complaint too but I actually think Homecoming mishandled Spidey on multiple levels.

• They undermined him as a young hero with huge potential by having him lose every last fight he's in. He loses 4 fights vs Vulture, 1 vs Shocker and even 1 vs henchmen robbing the ATM. He repeatedly need rescuing, Iron Man saves him twice and even Ned saves him once.
• They undermined him as an everyman science prodigy who builds his own tech on a shoe string budget by giving him a billion dollar Stark suit with an AI that coaches him. Hell, they didn't even let Peter be the one to hack the suit, they had Ned to do it for him.
• They ignored the classic, tragedy driven, 'with great power comes great responsibility' motivation of the character by never even mentioning Uncle Ben and barely having him struggle with hard choices and balancing his dual lives. Instead he spends most of the film obsessing about proving himself to the other heroes and joining the Avengers.
• They messed up the supporting cast. Liz is a crush he barely knows, not a love interest. MJ is a totally new character with Mary Jane's initials. No sign of Gwen or Harry, instead they stole Ganke from Miles Morales' supporting cast and renamed him Ned. Aunt May is barely in the film and what ought to be a huge moment of her finding out Peter is Spider-Man is cut short by the credits and played for laughs.

He's 15 in the Ultimate Spider-Man comics (my favourite version of the character) and the Spectacular Spider-Man animated series and they still nailed it.

I agree with all of those as well, I just can't get jiggy with MCU Spider-Man in large part because they shoe horned the shared universe aspect far too much.

 

[Batmannerism]

Those are my biggest complaint too but I actually think Homecoming mishandled Spidey on multiple levels.

• They undermined him as a young hero with huge potential by having him lose every last fight he's in. He loses 4 fights vs Vulture, 1 vs Shocker and even 1 vs henchmen robbing the ATM. He repeatedly need rescuing, Iron Man saves him twice and even Ned saves him once.
• They undermined him as an everyman science prodigy who builds his own tech on a shoe string budget by giving him a billion dollar Stark suit with an AI that coaches him. Hell, they didn't even let Peter be the one to hack the suit, they had Ned to do it for him.
• They ignored the classic, tragedy driven, 'with great power comes great responsibility' motivation of the character by never even mentioning Uncle Ben and barely having him struggle with hard choices and balancing his dual lives. Instead he spends most of the film obsessing about proving himself to the other heroes and joining the Avengers.
• They messed up the supporting cast. Liz is a crush he barely knows, not a love interest. MJ is a totally new character with Mary Jane's initials. No sign of Gwen or Harry, instead they stole Ganke from Miles Morales' supporting cast and renamed him Ned. Aunt May is barely in the film and what ought to be a huge moment of her finding out Peter is Spider-Man is cut short by the credits and played for laughs.

He's 15 in the Ultimate Spider-Man comics (my favourite version of the character) and the Spectacular Spider-Man animated series and they still nailed it.

Dude. What's strange is that despite MCU Spidey being very different and lacking a lot of the traditional Spidey elements those things you listed actually worked for me.

With Garfield I think my biggest gripe was that the reboot felt totally unnecessary. It was only 5 years after SM 3. It would be like somebody trying to remake the Lord of the Rings in 2008. It was the same old Spider Man story with some extra crap thrown in - that stuff about his parents....just a superfluous sub plot that went nowhere. The only major change was that they went with Gwen as his love interest. Don't get me wrong, Emma Stone did a great job, but I feel like they wasted a classic storyline that could have been the focus of the whole film.

Homecoming did away with the Uncle Ben issue and made the supporting cast much more contemporary - and for me it really worked. Plus Keaton was superb as Vulture - a villain I always thought too lame for big screen, they made him badass.

Homecoming is my favorite Spidey film so far, because I feel like it captures the essence of the character while giving us a fresh take - something Spidey really needed.

I loved the ending reveal with Aunt May !

Oh well, to each their own.