NBA 2015-2016: Age of Exorbitant Television Money - Part 2

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]513071[/split]

 

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]505759[/split]

 

[The Apocalypse]

There were a lot of games that Peyton played poorly. I don't want to derail this thread but needless to say, for the two rings he has, both were statistically his worst playoff performances of his career (sans the AFC championship against NE)

But the narrative that Peyton had no culpability for any of his playoff defeats is another thing he shares with LeBron. For years, YEARS, his teams were favored going into the playoffs to win it all. And somehow, he escaped a lot of criticism for a lot of blunders. There was always a reason other than the fact that sometimes you just need to make something happen.

The opening play against Seattle encapsulates Peyton's career to me in a nutshell. It's the Superbowl, and the first play of the game no less. Let your team get settled, run a routine play and just....play. Instead, he sees something, has to go through his audible routine and the center winds up screwing up. Is that all on Peyton? Of course not, just like it's not ALL on LeBron, but it sure as hell didn't help matters....

Are you talking about Lebron of Peyton? Cause the only time Lebron was favorited in the finals was when they played the Mav, his first year with the Heat.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Are you talking about Lebron of Peyton? Cause the only time Lebron was favorited in the finals was when they played the Mav, his first year with the Heat.

And he lost.

 

[Doc Samson]

What years? I hear this alot, but what years were this and he dropped the ball? Like you just blamed him for a bad snap. Come on.

I'm blaming him for the mentality, the need to do that in the first play of the game. The obsessive need to control the whole offense, to not be able to step back and understand that maybe, just maybe, his guys haven't been there before twice like he was at that point.

As far as being favorites? Pretty much every time he played NE he was the favorite back then. People have revisionist history now about this, but nobody was claiming the Patriots were a great team until they won the 3rd title. At that point, a lot of media and fans saw them as lucky. The tuck rule, the field goals, a lot of luck. The team was comprised of a bunch of cast offs nobody wanted, and a Quarterback nobody thought much of.

Are you talking about Lebron of Peyton? Cause the only time Lebron was favorited in the finals was when they played the Mav, his first year with the Heat.

I'm talking about Peyton there, but it applies to LeBron too. Once again, revisionist history. Let's not forget the last two years he was in Cleveland the first time, they had the best record both years. A lot of LeBron apologists act as if he did that alone, obviously I disagree, but ultimately, they were the favorites both years to at least get to the Finals. They were making commercials about him and Kobe playing in the Finals. It was a foregone conclusion that would happen for most people. And they flamed out to Orlando and Boston. Counting the Mavs Finals, that's three. OKC Finals was four. Both times against the Spurs, so that's 5 and 6 right there. The Spurs may have wiped the floor with Miami that 2nd time around, but most pundits thought the Heat would win.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm blaming him for the mentality, the need to do that in the first play of the game. The obsessive need to control the whole offense, to not be able to step back and understand that maybe, just maybe, his guys haven't been there before twice like he was at that point.

As far as being favorites? Pretty much every time he played NE he was the favorite back then. People have revisionist history now about this, but nobody was claiming the Patriots were a great team until they won the 3rd title. At that point, a lot of media and fans saw them as lucky. The tuck rule, the field goals, a lot of luck. The team was comprised of a bunch of cast offs nobody wanted, and a Quarterback nobody thought much of.

The Colts always lost to the Pats. In the playoffs Peyton didn't even play them at home until the season they won the Super Bowl. So how was he favored? And if the were betting favorites, that was stupid. That is why the Colts were playing on the road.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I'm talking about Peyton there, but it applies to LeBron too. Once again, revisionist history. Let's not forget the last two years he was in Cleveland the first time, they had the best record both years. A lot of LeBron apologists act as if he did that alone, obviously I disagree, but ultimately, they were the favorites both years to at least get to the Finals. They were making commercials about him and Kobe playing in the Finals. It was a foregone conclusion that would happen for most people. And they flamed out to Orlando and Boston. Counting the Mavs Finals, that's three. OKC Finals was four. Both times against the Spurs, so that's 5 and 6 right there. The Spurs may have wiped the floor with Miami that 2nd time around, but most pundits thought the Heat would win.

Let's not pretend Lebron had a great team. Look at what their record was when he left. To compare, look at what the Bulls did when Jordan left the first time.

Lebron had nobody around him. He essentially did carry the team himself.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Let's not pretend Lebron had a great team. Look at what their record was when he left. To compare, look at what the Bulls did when Jordan left the first time.

Lebron had nobody around him. He essentially did carry the team himself.

The thing about those Cavs teams is they were built specifically around him. They were perfect in terms of complimenting him. When he left, of course they crumbled. Still, losing to the Magic team will always be a stain.

 

[Doc Samson]

Let's not pretend Lebron had a great team. Look at what their record was when he left. To compare, look at what the Bulls did when Jordan left the first time.

Lebron had nobody around him. He essentially did carry the team himself.

Some more revisionist history. If the team was exactly the same, like the Bulls you mentioned, and only LeBron left, I would agree. That's not what happened. Through trades and injuries, pretty much everyone who contributed was gone or hurt.

The thing about those Cavs teams is they were built specifically around him. They were perfect in terms of complimenting him. When he left, of course they crumbled. Still, losing to the Magic team will always be a stain.

They certainly were tailor made for his style of play, a bunch of spot up shooters and rebounders to defend and gather the trash. But as I said above, a lot of those guys either left too, or got hurt.

The Colts always lost to the Pats. In the playoffs Peyton didn't even play them at home until the season they won the Super Bowl. So how was he favored? And if the were betting favorites, that was stupid. That is why the Colts were playing on the road.

I'm not saying the narrative was correct or not, I'm just saying at the time, with Peyton being the star, the MVP (multiple times, for putting up crazy numbers, another LeBron trait) and offensively looking unstoppable in the regular season, the Colts were favored to win a title a lot more than once during his time there.

 

[Kane52630]

Anderson Varejao this season

 

[Reek]

aw man, where did the lebron son go?

 

[TheCommissioner]

was Verejao traded or was he released and GS picked him up?

 

[The Apocalypse]

was Verejao traded or was he released and GS picked him up?

Released and picked up.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Oh come on guys, you're going to try and compare the players that left the Cav's with Lebron to the supporting cast Jordan had? Look, I get it if you don't like Lebron, I'm not a huge fan either, but fact being it was't a good team without him. Jordan had (ignoring some of his other support) two other superstars on his team. One of whom had already won two rings and had beat him in the Eastern Finals. So let's not try and act like Lebron had a great supporting cast.

Trying to pretend Lebron had a decent team is revisionist history at the highest.

 

[Quasar]

was Verejao traded or was he released and GS picked him up?

According to the commentators (Marv Albert specifically), he was traded to Portland, who released him, and then the Warrios picked him up.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Oh come on guys, you're going to try and compare the players that left the Cav's with Lebron to the supporting cast Jordan had? Look, I get it if you don't like Lebron, I'm not a huge fan either, but fact being it was't a good team without him. Jordan had (ignoring some of his other support) two other superstars on his team. One of whom had already won two rings and had beat him in the Eastern Finals. So let's not try and act like Lebron had a great supporting cast.

Trying to pretend Lebron had a decent team is revisionist history at the highest.

There is an ocean of differences between a horrible team and having the Jordan Bulls. If the Cavs were really that awful, they wouldn't have won that many games. It wasn't like LeBron went to the Heat and started winning more games.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Well the Warriors are the heavy favorite and I see why. Not surprising since they have the best record of all time, the coach of the year, and the only unanimous MVP ever. The Cavs are better this year, but so are the Warriors so it should end up the same way....Warriors in 6. Expect a Kevin Love disappearing act....especially since he's the only key player to be playing in his first Finals..

Are you talking about Lebron of Peyton? Cause the only time Lebron was favorited in the finals was when they played the Mav, his first year with the Heat.

And he lost.

Just like the Lakers and Thunder were favored to beat Dallas and lost. At some point, it might be time to admit the Mavs were the best team that year. The pundits were wrong about them every single time. And it's not like the NFL where you can get hot for a few games and win the championship. In the NBA, you gotta win a series and it takes a team to do that.

I'm blaming him for the mentality, the need to do that in the first play of the game. The obsessive need to control the whole offense, to not be able to step back and understand that maybe, just maybe, his guys haven't been there before twice like he was at that point.

Holy smokes! We can agree about something! t:

Never got the logic behind Peyton's football genius act. It would probably work if the 10 other guys were as quick as him in changing a play at the last second all the time. But that's not reality. He's just begging for a teammate to make a mistake with that tactic. And on the first play of the Super Bowl when everyone is most nervous? Come on man....

The Spurs may have wiped the floor with Miami that 2nd time around, but most pundits thought the Heat would win.

You put a lot of stock in what "pundits" think. Those pundits are wrong a lot. They thought the Mavs would lose to the Blazers, Lakers, Thunder, and Heat in 2011 and were wrong each time.

Are you going with the pundits this year or will you blame Lebron for the Cavs losing to one of the greatest teams of all time?

Oh come on guys, you're going to try and compare the players that left the Cav's with Lebron to the supporting cast Jordan had? Look, I get it if you don't like Lebron, I'm not a huge fan either, but fact being it was't a good team without him. Jordan had (ignoring some of his other support) two other superstars on his team. One of whom had already won two rings and had beat him in the Eastern Finals. So let's not try and act like Lebron had a great supporting cast.

Trying to pretend Lebron had a decent team is revisionist history at the highest.

That's how sports works. Fans always blame a player they don't like for every loss and give credit to their teams if they win.

But the reality is that very few players have the exact same situation. Lebron has never had great teammates like other legends have had. Wade and that's it. And he got Wade right as his knees gave out (and before the mysterious "comeback" this year...PEDs...) instead of getting a young Scotty Pippen, Kevin McHale, or James Worthy like other stars got. And Lebron certainly has never played for a coach in the same league as Phil Jackson or Pop. How often did MJ have to go against a better team in the Finals or a team with a better coach? Like never. Pretty easy to go "6-0" in that situation....Lebron would have done the same. MJ obviously didn't win any rings in the 80s when he was playing without stars and facing superior teams in the playoffs. He went 1-9 in his first 10 playoff games and had a losing record his first three seasons.

Lebron haters would have us believe he just happens to "choke" every time he loses to a superior team. But I guess he learned how to win for those two championships and then forgot again the next year? The lack of logic is astounding.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Bosh is a great player. Go look at the stats. The dude was the reason why LeBron and Wade worked.

By the way, LeBron has consistently chosen his teammates the last 6 years, so lets not act like he was forced into any situation. People acting like he didn't go down to Miami because he couldn't win in Cleveland and then left when he thought he couldn't win in Miami anymore.

 

[Immortalfire]

aw man, where did the lebron son go?

We traded him to the 76ers.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

It's all part of "the process"

 

[Quasar]

The lebron son wasn't supposed to come back here until June. He showed up a day early and paid the price!

 

[Matt]

I'm blaming him for the mentality, the need to do that in the first play of the game. The obsessive need to control the whole offense, to not be able to step back and understand that maybe, just maybe, his guys haven't been there before twice like he was at that point.

As far as being favorites? Pretty much every time he played NE he was the favorite back then. People have revisionist history now about this, but nobody was claiming the Patriots were a great team until they won the 3rd title. At that point, a lot of media and fans saw them as lucky. The tuck rule, the field goals, a lot of luck. The team was comprised of a bunch of cast offs nobody wanted, and a Quarterback nobody thought much of.



I'm talking about Peyton there, but it applies to LeBron too. Once again, revisionist history. Let's not forget the last two years he was in Cleveland the first time, they had the best record both years. A lot of LeBron apologists act as if he did that alone, obviously I disagree, but ultimately, they were the favorites both years to at least get to the Finals. They were making commercials about him and Kobe playing in the Finals. It was a foregone conclusion that would happen for most people. And they flamed out to Orlando and Boston. Counting the Mavs Finals, that's three. OKC Finals was four. Both times against the Spurs, so that's 5 and 6 right there. The Spurs may have wiped the floor with Miami that 2nd time around, but most pundits thought the Heat would win.

I've been thinking about the point you made last night and have one point of contention. With Manning, I think the behavior you describe is largely ego driven. Manning is convinced he is the smartest man on the field (including coaches), that he always knows best, and therefore tinkers and tinkers to technical perfection, all while being incapable of accounting for the countless elements that are not part of the textbook approach (which Manning knows like the back of his hand). His stubborn arrogance prevents him from adapting or accounting for anything outside of his textbook worldview.

I do think James has a similar basketball IQ to Manning and has a similar textbook approach. I also think he believes he is smarter than his coaches, front office, etc. But I don't think that is what is holding him back (partially because football does not have the indepth strategical nuance of football and therefore him overruling his coaches is not as a big of a deal). I think what holds him back is not ego, it is insecurity. James does not play well when things are not going perfect for him because he cannot adapt. I think he does not adapt, go for the clutch shot, etc because he is so terrified of making a mistake that will cause someone to second guess him. There has never been a player in any sport who is as image-conscious and insecure as LeBron James.

So while I agree that they are very similar in regard to their need for perfect circumstances to succeed and inability to adapt, I think their motivation differs. I think with Manning it comes from a place of ego. With James (who certainly has an ego, don't get me wrong), it comes from a place of insecurity and fear.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Bosh is a great player. Go look at the stats. The dude was the reason why LeBron and Wade worked.

By the way, LeBron has consistently chosen his teammates the last 6 years, so lets not act like he was forced into any situation. People acting like he didn't go down to Miami because he couldn't win in Cleveland and then left when he thought he couldn't win in Miami anymore.

He absolutely chose Miami...and he won there. So it was a smart decision. But I'm talking about his first run in Cleveland. They didn't give him anyone to support him, and he carried the whole team. As others have said, nobody can win alone. Jordan couldn't and neither could Lebron, though he got the closest.

Trying to say that Lebron had a decent supporting cast in Cleveland when he left is laughable. He didn't even have other players who were really good but not quite great level. The 04 Pistons were composed of that, (aside from many Billups, who may get hall of fame....maybe) Lebron didn't have people that were Princes, Rip Hamiltons etc. And he certainly didn't have what Jordan, Bird, or Magic had.

 

[Quasar]

Taco Bell will give a free taco if any of the road teams steal a game in the Finals.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/happens-nba-finals-everybody-gets-142630345.html

 

[runawayboulder]

The lebron son wasn't supposed to come back here until June. He showed up a day early and paid the price!

Can we just fast forward to the end of the Finals if Cleveland loses so he can say "Let's leave the past in the past" again?