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My guess is that the mass audience didn't really mind about the inclusion of Avengers related material in IM2, but they weren't exactly hyped by the notion either.
JAK®;19378801 said:You're right, Marvel should stop doing things for the fans. Only then, will the complaining stop.
My guess is that the mass audience didn't really mind about the inclusion of Avengers related material in IM2, but they weren't exactly hyped by the notion either.
JAK®;19377659 said:But have they been complaining about it? Iron Man 2 wasn't unsuccessful at the box office.
Jeez come on man, it was always going to be successful coz of film one, but that wasn't an excuse to force things in. And yes I do know people who did complain, they had no idea what the hell what some of the stuff was referring to, given how some of the characters were introduced it's easy to see why. Basic rule of film making - you don't pander to the fan base and assume everyone else knows what the hell you're talking about. Latest Harry Potter suffers from the exact same thing, without prior knowledge of both films and worse the books you could easily get lost in some parts. People make out like this is one big series of sequels, it's anything but, this is several different story lines that somehow have to be made to meet in the middle, but they've gotta work individually first and foremost, if they require knowledge of other movies or knowledge of what's coming up ahead or worse, the comic mythologies, in order to be understood then it's poor film making. Prior knowledge of a character or universe or book should never be a requirement before hand, the films need to work in their own right. If characters and events need to be there, then it's up to the writers to ensure they work with the story and not have the story moved to accommodate them. The problem in what Marvel are doing is that they're trying to make a concept work in a medium that it isn't suited for. It works for TV, hell that's more comparable a medium to comics than what films will ever be. Somewhere along the way things are gonna start getting compromised in trying to link things that aren't relevant to the story at hand. IM2 got a free pass in many respects due to film one's success, what if Thor or Cap have equally tacked on plot devices that distract and bog down the film? Given they don't have the luxury of a successful film one it's hard to see them being given the same leniency.
This is another one of my issues. No doubt, for us comic fans, the easter eggs and things of that nature are cool. But to the average moviegoer, how can Marvel assume they even care or know?
Who knows how many people actually intend to see every single Marvel flick. Unless the general public sees them all, how are the SHIELD references even gonna make sense? All you guys on here arguing about how little the SHIELD stuff actually affected these movies, I once again ask, how effective was it then? If it's so minuscule that it hardly takes any screen time, and if we can all agree that most in the general populace could care less about any of it, then why even do it?
We, the hardcore fans, are going to see Avengers regardless, so in that sense, they're just preaching to the choir. Presumably, your doing all these tie-ins to appeal to the general public who might not be familiar, but your banking on the fact that number 1, it doesn't just fly over their head and number 2, it works & motivates them to see other movies they might not be interested in. Say what you will, we still don't know the outcome of Thor or Cap, they could potentially fail. And if that happens, by the time Avengers rolls around, there's a good chance that the only people who might be really excited about it wind up being the smallest minority who actually get it, and understand. Namely us...
I'm not sure the Potter series is comparable - the only decision there is what to leave out from books to film. In Marvel's case there's much more of a 'making it up as they go along' vibe, for better or worse.
I don't begrudge them building this Avengers world and putting it onto a series of films one after the other... I just don't think it's going to be nearly as successful as they want it to be.
gtfo, you're acting as though they had stuff thrown in there throughout the the entire film. The only thing that was in there that may have confused people was Nick Fury showing up, but it was established that he was head of SHIELD, which was already established throughout the first movie.
Nothing else was forced in this film.
And yes whether you like it or not these are being made as a series of films like the Star Wars saga, and the Harry Potter books/movies. I didn't hear this much *****ing and whining when General Grievous just popped into the Episode III and was already the general of the droid army.
Good grief, now lets complain about a series of books that turned into a series of movies? If you go into a Harry Potter movie and don't know what's going on because you haven't seen the previous ones, well then that's your own damn fault.
And that's exactly my point about War Machine not needing to be in the movie. Favreau from the very beginning said the movie wasn't going to be longer than the first, so when Howard was fired and then they rewrote the script to beef up Rhodey's screen time and bring in War Machine, guess who got shafted.
I disagree with those saying the movie on Tony Stark's end wasn't interesting or having depth. I thought he owned every scene he was in and his story arc was interesting.
it's not just a simple matter of fan service or promoting the next movie. marvel is building something here, that's what's exciting. shield isn't in iron man 2 just to promote the avengers, but so that when they have a greater presence in the avengers or maybe even the bookends of cap, they won't just have come out of nowhere. i've said since iron man 2 came out that a few years from now it will be looked at much differently because we'll see it in context.
My problem was just that I never felt that his life was truly in danger or saw his impending death really taking a toll on him. I think they should've included some more serious scenes dealing with that in addition to him acting like a jackass in public. Like something that has been suggested before with him thinking he's found a replacement element, only to see that it wont work and he breaks down. For that matter, I would've prefered that serving as the catalyst for him getting drunk instead of the whole party scene.
Plus, I really think they should've left out the temporary cure that SHIELD gave him.
Listen I love what they're trying to do, and when it comes at the end of the movie like IM or TIH, it's cool. But IM2 is the first instance where they integrated SHIELD members into the central plot. And people can't say that they're just representing SHIELD because 90% of Fury's interest in Stark derives from the Avengers. If they used the regular Nick Fury, that viewpoint makes more sense to me, but the Ultimates Nick Fury has a totally different role within that universe, and conversely, in this movie universe as well.
You are purposely missing the point.
If we go into a Marvel movie, the assumption is not that because it has "Marvel" in the credits, that we are expected to have seen all of the other "Marvel" movies. If the only Marvel property you've seen is the first Iron Man movie, then you should not be expected to have seen anything else if you want the story to make sense. Each superhero is a different franchise, whether Marvel wants to admit it or not. That's not to say Nick Fury couldn't have fit into Iron Man 2, but with the script they used he felt very forced in and they did a really crappy job introducing him. It's just like "hey, who's that guy with the patch eye?" If they wanted to do it properly then the plot of the film should have had a better reason for Tony to meet with the head of shield, and it should not have been just so that Fury could provide Tony with plot devices that Tony could have come up with on his own if the film were more competently written.
Marvel's biggest problem right now is that they are treating all their movies like one big series, instead of treating them as multiple series with Avengers is a team up film. Did any of the people who saw the trailer for Thor this month make the connection that this is in the same world as Iron Man? I highly doubt that. It's a movie about Thor coming to the modern world and doing some stuff, and there will be some fighting. That's as much as the audience understands, and yet Marvel seems to think that all of them are just as well versed in comic book lore as all of us geeks. I think that their faith in the audience to study up on these things is a lot higher than it should be, and as JMC said, if you need outside knowledge of a film in order to enjoy it then that is bad film making. It can't be comared to Harry Potter or Star Wars, because if you start at the beginning with those series it will make sense. With Marvel, they are going to be in trouble if when people go to watch Captain America they realize they needed to watch Thor first, because Thor is a different series, wheter Marvel wants it to be percieved that way or not.
I wouldn't really say that about Fury. His interest is first and foremost the effects of Iron Man on national security. The more off track that he became, the greater the risk it was to his and the worlds interests. When he hooked him up with the cure, it had nothing to do with Avengers. That was just some future project he was being considered for. The Avengers wasn't really even brought up until the end of the movie when they discussed it in Fury's hideout.
This is another one of my issues. No doubt, for us comic fans, the easter eggs and things of that nature are cool. But to the average moviegoer, how can Marvel assume they even care or know?
Who knows how many people actually intend to see every single Marvel flick. Unless the general public sees them all, how are the SHIELD references even gonna make sense? All you guys on here arguing about how little the SHIELD stuff actually affected these movies, I once again ask, how effective was it then? If it's so minuscule that it hardly takes any screen time, and if we can all agree that most in the general populace could care less about any of it, then why even do it?
We, the hardcore fans, are going to see Avengers regardless, so in that sense, they're just preaching to the choir. Presumably, your doing all these tie-ins to appeal to the general public who might not be familiar, but your banking on the fact that number 1, it doesn't just fly over their head and number 2, it works & motivates them to see other movies they might not be interested in. Say what you will, we still don't know the outcome of Thor or Cap, they could potentially fail. And if that happens, by the time Avengers rolls around, there's a good chance that the only people who might be really excited about it wind up being the smallest minority who actually get it, and understand. Namely us...
Jeez come on man, it was always going to be successful coz of film one, but that wasn't an excuse to force things in. And yes I do know people who did complain, they had no idea what the hell what some of the stuff was referring to, given how some of the characters were introduced it's easy to see why. Basic rule of film making - you don't pander to the fan base and assume everyone else knows what the hell you're talking about. Latest Harry Potter suffers from the exact same thing, without prior knowledge of both films and worse the books you could easily get lost in some parts. People make out like this is one big series of sequels, it's anything but, this is several different story lines that somehow have to be made to meet in the middle, but they've gotta work individually first and foremost, if they require knowledge of other movies or knowledge of what's coming up ahead or worse, the comic mythologies, in order to be understood then it's poor film making. Prior knowledge of a character or universe or book should never be a requirement before hand, the films need to work in their own right. If characters and events need to be there, then it's up to the writers to ensure they work with the story and not have the story moved to accommodate them. The problem in what Marvel are doing is that they're trying to make a concept work in a medium that it isn't suited for. It works for TV, hell that's more comparable a medium to comics than what films will ever be. Somewhere along the way things are gonna start getting compromised in trying to link things that aren't relevant to the story at hand. IM2 got a free pass in many respects due to film one's success, what if Thor or Cap have equally tacked on plot devices that distract and bog down the film? Given they don't have the luxury of a successful film one it's hard to see them being given the same leniency.
IM2 was not dark enough that's true, but I don't think it would have been necessary for Tony to have hit rock-bottom, unless Favreau and Marvel were planning to do a trilogy. That structure calls for things to go to hell in part two (think Empire Strikes Back and TDK), which in Stark's case would probably mean hitting the bottle. That story beat will probably be explored later, but we know now it won't be in Favreau's hands. That might actually be a good thing, because although he did a good job balancing humor with characterization I don't know if Favs had what it takes to effectively go that dark. I don't know if Marvel can either.I think part of the problem with Iron Man 2 is that it was not dark enough. It didn't feel like the stakes had been raised enough. Yes, on paper, there was a lot of drama going on, but I rarely felt the impact of it. I never really felt like Tony had hit his all time low, and the movie just plain lacked the emotion of the first one.