No Shared Universe for DC Films

[Nemesis Prime]

So the GA will hate seeing Flash and Wonder Woman in a movie together with the two most well known superheroes ever, but they'll eat that **** up if they're in a movie alone?

That doesn't make any sense.

It's pointless to stick Flash and WW in the same movie as Batman and Superman if all they do is be in the background and let the two most popular DC heroes get all the limelight. Make a solo movie that make GA care about them first, THEN stick all of them together in a movie. Otherwise a Batman/Superman movie is the way to go.

 

[CConn]

It's pointless to stick Flash and WW in the same movie as Batman and Superman if all they do is be in the background and let the two most popular DC heroes get all the limelight. Make a solo movie that make GA care about them first, THEN stick all of them together in a movie. Otherwise a Batman/Superman movie is the way to go.

Have you seen the Avengers?

Nick Fury, Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Agent Coleson all barely had cameo roles in all of the other movies, and they were still able to have plenty of focus and progression in the Avengers. I'd even argue that the Hulk needed no introductory movie to remain an incredibly impressive force in the movie.

No one was relegated to the background in The Avengers, that's what's making it such a tremendous success, and that's what the JLA should be modeled after.

 

[Tobias]

It's pointless to stick Flash and WW in the same movie as Batman and Superman if all they do is be in the background and let the two most popular DC heroes get all the limelight. Make a solo movie that make GA care about them first, THEN stick all of them together in a movie. Otherwise a Batman/Superman movie is the way to go.

Spot on.

TA is a great film. I'd say, having seen it today, the best superhero film ever.

That will get you a lot but not a 1.2 - 1.4 billion box office. Which is what it is looking like it will be.

The extra push that allowed TA to do a revised upward 207 million this weekend was that the audience already cared about Thor, Cap and especially Downey's IronMan.

Observations are coming in on the uber success of TA- the one everything I've read so far has in common was the build-up of popular solo films whose characters/actors captured the loyalty of audiences.

So yes indeed, WB needs t build to JL by doing solo films that are good and that capture the loyalty of movie-goers.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Have you seen the Avengers?

Nick Fury, Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Agent Coleson all barely had cameo roles in all of the other movies, and they were still able to have plenty of focus and progression in the Avengers. I'd even argue that the Hulk needed no introductory movie to remain an incredibly impressive force in the movie.

No one was relegated to the background in The Avengers, that's what's making it such a tremendous success, and that's what the JLA should be modeled after.

Yeah but WW and Flash =/= BW, Hawk, Coulson, Fury

WW is part of the trinity of DC superheroes alongside Supes and Bats, and Flash was a founding member of JL and one of the most well known superhero in the DC Universe. These two deserve better treatment than that, and by that I mean not even getting their own solo movies when lesser known superheroes like IM, Cap and Thor did.

 

[CConn]

Honestly, the way you guys talk, it's like you really don't know all that much about creative writing at all.

If you need multiple solo films to make the audience care about the characters in a movie, you're not doing it right. Every single movie - whether it be a shared universe or separate, whether there is solo movies or if they're not - should be able to make the audience care and feel emotionally invested in all of the main characters. That's just the backbone of good writing.

And yes, it's hard to do. And yes, there's plenty examples of ensamble films that weren't able to pull off a good balance of characters (Singer's X-Men, for instance), but that certainly doesn't mean we should just assume a JLA movie should be inherently bad because it will actually take skill to write it.

If we're relegated to that brand of logic, then even with a shared universe, Avengers would've been a Tony and Cap lovefest where we didn't give a **** about anyone else. But it wasn't. It devoted an appropriate amount of screen time to every main character and gave them all individual character arcs in the film to make the audience care. And that's what should be done with a JLA movie.

Also, the reason why the solo movies were so important to the Avengers movie, was not for creative reasons, it was for financial ones. Before 2008, not a single character in the Avengers could be said to be a bankable, financially successful property. They needed to make sure that the GA was open to and responded well to IM, Thor, etc. before they could stake such an expensive film on them.

For WB, they don't need to worry about that. Both Superman and Batman have proven themselves time and time again to be bankable comic book characters, able to support big budget movies. Their presence alone would guarantee that the GA would at least be interested in a JLA film (obviously, whether it's a hit or not would be dependent on its quality).

 

[Thundercrack85]

Let's wait and see how Superman does.

But I can't see Nolan's Batman coexisting with the likes of Flash and Superman, much less Wonder Woman.

 

[CConn]

Yeah but WW and Flash =/= BW, Hawk, Coulson, Fury

WW is part of the trinity of DC superheroes alongside Supes and Bats, and Flash was a founding member of JL and one of the most well known superhero in the DC Universe. These two deserve better treatment than that, and by that I mean not even getting their own solo movies when lesser known superheroes like IM, Cap and Thor did.

Oh, so you think they'd feel slighted if their first live action appearance was in a JLA movie?

You could ALWAYS go back and tell their origins in solo films later on.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It's not just about money and marketing (though that is mostly what it's about). As Green Lantern proved, it's not always easy to make a comic book character work in live action. Granted, they did an exceptionally bad job. But the point is, you need solo films to figure out if you can make the character work in live action.

If you can't make Green Lantern and Wonder Woman work in solo films, how are they supposed to work in a live action Justice League movie? They'd bring the whole movie down.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

It's not just about money and marketing (though that is mostly what it's about). As Green Lantern proved, it's not always easy to make a comic book character work in live action. Granted, they did an exceptionally bad job. But the point is, you need solo films to figure out if you can make the character work in live action.

If you can't make Green Lantern and Wonder Woman work in solo films, how are they supposed to work in a live action Justice League movie? They'd bring the whole movie down.

^Very good point. You need to find actor/actress who can do the character justice on the big screen. If the role was miscast or the script sucks then at least you'll know before committing a whole bunch of money to a JL movie, because the GA will not be that forgiving if the quality is compromised due to certain cast members or other factors that could've been revealed had there been solo movies in the first place.

 

[Cain]

I liked the approach they had with JLM personally. Setup Barry AND Wally in the same movie with Barry dying and passing the torch. Leading to the Chuck Roven produced Flash movie starring Wally that also got canned.

They had an OMAC vs. JL movie for people with interactions between the league and spin off's lined up afterwards if it stuck. A movie with highlights for all the characters and ton of spectacle and people just cried because they didn't believe movie magic could make the cast a visionary like George Miller came up with into the JL.

They had already invested so much into it that by canning it and not pulling through after the strike they shot themselves in the foot and left the lane completely open for Marvel. Ha ha ha I could imagine the meetings over at WB now.

The Avengers just came and styled on them in the process. Sure they have other movies in the wings but it must sting a bit considering they're the only other studio in hollywood who could do something that eventful.

TBH you didn't even have to watch any of the other Marvel movies to enjoy TA too. Everyone I saw it with; it was their first Marvel movie. It's just an event at this point. So I can't see how with good execution and heroes more iconic than the ones at Marvel you wouldn't have a solid JL movie franchise if pulled off right.

I don't think they will though. They don't have a clue how to pick the right team for these movies. If MOS gains momentum and makes a profit then maybe they'll wake up and look into other heroes and not just the Batman reboot. I doubt it though.

I wouldn't count on DC superhero movies anytime soon. I will count on other DC properties outside of superheros to continue to get adapted though.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The problem is that the franchises are all over the place. There is no cohesion. I'm guessing the ship has sailed with Man of Steel, so that can't be used as a starting point for a shared universe. Nolan's Batman is finished. And it will be a while before we see a new Batman. Green Lantern didn't work out. So... really, best you can do is wait a few years.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

yep, after MOS we've got what? Lobo? yeah, that'll overshadow anything marvel has left in the chamber.

The problem is that the franchises are all over the place. There is no cohesion. I'm guessing the ship has sailed with Man of Steel, so that can't be used as a starting point for a shared universe. Nolan's Batman is finished. And it will be a while before we see a new Batman. Green Lantern didn't work out. So... really, best you can do is wait a few years.

well MOS isn't out till next year so they could add a little something extra (something to do with bats for example) like marvel has done with its end credits. that's all it takes imo.

 

[Tobias]

yep, after MOS we've got what? Lobo? yeah, that'll overshadow anything marvel has left in the chamber.

If indeed Lobo turns out to be WB's 2014 DC film I'd sayWB is stepping back from DC properties altogether and that, aside from the Batman reboot, they will not do other DC films for the remainder of the decade.

It won't hurt WB if that is how they go - they don't get much of their profits from DC stuff anyway.

 

[Thundercrack85]

yep, after MOS we've got what? Lobo? yeah, that'll overshadow anything marvel has left in the chamber.




well MOS isn't out till next year so they could add a little something extra (something to do with bats for example) like marvel has done with its end credits. that's all it takes imo.

Maybe, but I would really like something more ambitious.

That's the thing about Superman. The potential no one seems to get. He unlike most heroes, has been a hero his entire life. You can actually do movies about various stages of his life. And through that, you could establish a whole shared universe. E.g. show who the heroes are when he is a kid (even interact with them), and then show him becoming an adult, and his contemporary heroes as Superman (one way to work in some legacy characters).

I know, that will never happen.

 

[DaveMoral]

I think they can still salvage Green Lantern with Ryan Reynolds as Hal. I know it's en vogue to blame Geoff Johns for the GL debacle, but I lay the responsibility squarely on Martin Campbell. He had no vision, and no idea how to pull it off if he did, for Green Lantern. The script got butchered and we ended up with a Parallax that was just a mish-mash of Krona, Parallax and Legion.

Johns involvement was so late in the game that they couldn't just scrap the script and go with something closer to Secret Origins, which would have been a great intro to the GL mythos, and it would have been a ton cheaper to produce because the most effects heavy aspect would have been the visit to Oa.

IMO, they could still make something of it if they got the right director for the job and scriptwriters that were willing to jump right into doing Emerald Dawn II. Expose Sinestro towards the end, and you've got yourself a proper GL film. The proceed to the Sinestro Corps War. Meanwhile, use that to create some links towards a Justice League film. If they have any kind of hopes of taking another run a GL I hope the are paying attention to Timm's GLTAS... because that's how you do it.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

Maybe, but I would really like something more ambitious.

That's the thing about Superman. The potential no one seems to get. He unlike most heroes, has been a hero his entire life. You can actually do movies about various stages of his life. And through that, you could establish a whole shared universe. E.g. show who the heroes are when he is a kid (even interact with them), and then show him becoming an adult, and his contemporary heroes as Superman (one way to work in some legacy characters).

I know, that will never happen.

It did happen..was called Smallville.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It did happen..was called Smallville.

For a film franchise. With all the major DC properties. Smallville did have some good ideas though. Just lacked the budget and execution. And properties.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

I think they can still salvage Green Lantern with Ryan Reynolds as Hal. I know it's en vogue to blame Geoff Johns for the GL debacle, but I lay the responsibility squarely on Martin Campbell. He had no vision, and no idea how to pull it off if he did, for Green Lantern. The script got butchered and we ended up with a Parallax that was just a mish-mash of Krona, Parallax and Legion.

Johns involvement was so late in the game that they couldn't just scrap the script and go with something closer to Secret Origins, which would have been a great intro to the GL mythos, and it would have been a ton cheaper to produce because the most effects heavy aspect would have been the visit to Oa.

IMO, they could still make something of it if they got the right director for the job and scriptwriters that were willing to jump right into doing Emerald Dawn II. Expose Sinestro towards the end, and you've got yourself a proper GL film. The proceed to the Sinestro Corps War. Meanwhile, use that to create some links towards a Justice League film. If they have any kind of hopes of taking another run a GL I hope the are paying attention to Timm's GLTAS... because that's how you do it.

i think mark strong and reynolds where the only redeeming qualities about gl, but i don't they're enough to ease WB's worries about the money they'd need to put up to do it right and do it well.

 

[Tobias]

For a film franchise. With all the major DC properties. Smallville did have some good ideas though. Just lacked the budget and execution. And properties.

And despite those limitations, Smallville has been a cash cow for WB and brought in more revenue than any other Superman incarnations by far.

Hundreds and hundreds of millions off DVD sales alone in profit.

There is a reason they are making a Smallville comic with the likeness of Tom and Michael.

Those two actors, despite what you may personally think of them, got "it" in a special way insofar as the Supes/Lex relationship goes.

Just imagine what could have been if Smallville had had the budget and had been better executed.

In hindsight, WB may have been better off making a Smallville/Superman film rather than SR. There was talk of it at the time. We'll never know.

 

[psylockolussus]

I just hope WB will do something now about the Justice League movie.

 

[Shazam]

Have you seen the Avengers?

Nick Fury, Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Agent Coleson all barely had cameo roles in all of the other movies, and they were still able to have plenty of focus and progression in the Avengers. I'd even argue that the Hulk needed no introductory movie to remain an incredibly impressive force in the movie.

No one was relegated to the background in The Avengers, that's what's making it such a tremendous success, and that's what the JLA should be modeled after.

Okay....we agree again???? What is this!!!?

 

[The Guard]

Honestly, the way you guys talk, it's like you really don't know all that much about creative writing at all.

If you need multiple solo films to make the audience care about the characters in a movie, you're not doing it right. Every single movie - whether it be a shared universe or separate, whether there is solo movies or if they're not - should be able to make the audience care and feel emotionally invested in all of the main characters. That's just the backbone of good writing.

And yes, it's hard to do. And yes, there's plenty examples of ensamble films that weren't able to pull off a good balance of characters (Singer's X-Men, for instance), but that certainly doesn't mean we should just assume a JLA movie should be inherently bad because it will actually take skill to write it.

If we're relegated to that brand of logic, then even with a shared universe, Avengers would've been a Tony and Cap lovefest where we didn't give a **** about anyone else. But it wasn't. It devoted an appropriate amount of screen time to every main character and gave them all individual character arcs in the film to make the audience care. And that's what should be done with a JLA movie.

Also, the reason why the solo movies were so important to the Avengers movie, was not for creative reasons, it was for financial ones. Before 2008, not a single character in the Avengers could be said to be a bankable, financially successful property. They needed to make sure that the GA was open to and responded well to IM, Thor, etc. before they could stake such an expensive film on them.

For WB, they don't need to worry about that. Both Superman and Batman have proven themselves time and time again to be bankable comic book characters, able to support big budget movies. Their presence alone would guarantee that the GA would at least be interested in a JLA film (obviously, whether it's a hit or not would be dependent on its quality).

Exactly.

 

[CConn]

It's not just about money and marketing (though that is mostly what it's about). As Green Lantern proved, it's not always easy to make a comic book character work in live action. Granted, they did an exceptionally bad job. But the point is, you need solo films to figure out if you can make the character work in live action.

If you can't make Green Lantern and Wonder Woman work in solo films, how are they supposed to work in a live action Justice League movie? They'd bring the whole movie down.

No, you don't.

Again, every movie and every project is its own entity. Even when you assemble the same cast and crew, different results happen. Look at Iron Man and Iron Man 2. Iron Man was awesome. 2? ...not so much. Did the fact that the first one was so good do anything to safeguard against the second's demise? No.

Like I said, I do agree, it would be difficult to do a JLA film - just as it was difficult to do an Avengers movie, but it's not about "not" being able to make GL or WW or Flash work in a solo film. It's merely about a JLA film taking precedence due to the potential financial upside.

And actually, financially speaking, I would think it would be much "safer" to introduce Flash and Wonder Woman in a JLA movie, have them be absolutely awesome in it, then through that win over people enough to actually be invigorated and excited about a solo movie featuring them.

 

[CConn]

Exactly.

This foolishness has actually invigorated me to try my hand at plotting out a JLA movie.

I did pretty well with a Wonder Woman comic reboot a few days ago.

 

[Hamill-Joker]

I'd personally rather see solo film for Wonder Woman than any Justice League movie.