Nordic Aliens

[afan]

What core do you refer to............I'm seeing magic being thrown out as a foundation for Thor. For the sake of defining "magic" are we talking Dr Strange's milieu as an example of Thor's magic?

 

[SuperFerret]

Simply put, when you boil Thor's long history and broad characterization down to the most simplistic terms, Thor is the Norse God of Thunder. That's an inherently magical concept, taking the magic away from that would compromise the entire basis for the character that we love.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Thor is actually quite a bit less magical than Dr. Strange in practice. They're both magic-based, but Thor visually breaks down to a big dude hitting things with a hammer and shooting lightning. He doesn't stand back and do funky motions with his hands to cast magic spells or anything. He's an intensely physical hero with a core that delves into supernatural concepts.

 

[afan]

Simply put, when you boil Thor's long history and broad characterization down to the most simplistic terms, Thor is the Norse God of Thunder. That's an inherently magical concept, taking the magic away from that would compromise the entire basis for the character that we love.

I don't follow the connection....it's an inherently spiritual concept, but magical?

For the sake of discussion.......If.......

The inhabitants of Asgard are inter-dimensional beings possessing fantastic abilities, impossible to explain on Earth, but commonplace(read not magical) in their reality. It is also possible to traverse the barrier between Asgard and Earth. The methodolgy of which is unknown to Humans and very rarely done by Asgardians. During one of those rare instances the Norse were witness to a visit from Asgard, and the myths of the Norse gods were born.
How does that damage the character's core?
That's a Sci Fi based explanation, the alternate dimension concept is fairly well known and a reasonable attempt to introduce a realistic element to the film, making something like the example of Spidey's boots inconsequential to suspension of disbelief.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It doesn't. It also doesn't try to explain the Asgardians as scientific beings. It just doesn't call them gods outright except through the mouthpiece of the ancient Norse peoples. It leaves their true nature ambiguous, and I'm fine with that. It's the suggestions that the Asgardians absolutely must be unequivocally explained as sci fi aliens that I take issue with.

 

[SuperFerret]

It doesn't, but calling them "aliens" implies something different entirely.

Interdimensional beings is commonplace in both sci fi and fantasy.

 

[Manowar]

The only thing supernatural(magical) about Thor is his power to command the weather. (Hence why he was worshipped mostly by Viking farmers)

Everyone here going on about how will Thor's "magic" be mixed with Iron man's "science tech" in the same movie. Very simple. Think Star Wars

Iron man = Han Solo = scientist/mechanic/atheist
Thor = Luke Skywalker= mysticism/supernatural force/religion

 

[afan]

It doesn't. It also doesn't try to explain the Asgardians as scientific beings. It just doesn't call them gods outright except through the mouthpiece of the ancient Norse peoples. It leaves their true nature ambiguous, and I'm fine with that. It's the suggestions that the Asgardians absolutely must be unequivocally explained as sci fi aliens that I take issue with.

Well........they would be "scientific" beings in their dimension.
The impact of Thor's hammer would be consistent with the force he uses, they bleed when cut, they age, they die, they eat, i.e there would be rules or science to their existance, and some of our science would also apply. Without Mjolnir Thor will succumb to gravity.
See for me once you label all things Asgardian magical, all bets are off.

 

[SuperFerret]

The only thing supernatural(magical) about Thor is his power to command the weather. (Hence why he was worshipped mostly by Viking farmers)

Everyone here going on about how will Thor's "magic" be mixed with Iron man's "science tech" in the same movie. Very simple. Think Star Wars

Iron man = Han Solo = scientist/mechanic/atheist
Thor = Luke Skywalker= mysticism/supernatural force/religion

I agree though I'd add an "overtly" to your "only thing supernatural" statement, all of Thor's powers stem from his supernatural/magical origins.

 

[Manowar]

I agree though I'd add an "overtly" to your "only thing supernatural" statement, all of Thor's powers stem from his supernatural/magical origins.

Yeah, I was going to edit my post as such but was lazy

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well........they would be "scientific" beings in their dimension.
The impact of Thor's hammer would be consistent with the force he uses, they bleed when cut, they age, they die, they eat, i.e there would be rules or science to their existance, and some of our science would also apply. Without Mjolnir Thor will succumb to gravity.
See for me once you label all things Asgardian magical, all bets are off.

But all things in Asgard are labeled magical in the comics and all of those rules still apply. "Magic" does not equal "anything goes," necessarily. The root of Thor's powers are magic, but they still follow certain rules. He's only so strong, he can only fly with his hammer, etc. As long as you have internal consistency throughout Thor's appearances, you're fine. You can call it magic or science; it'll still follow certain rules. In terms of fictional narratives, an "anything goes" mentality is usually just flat-out bad writing, like Superman (a sci fi alien hero) developing new powers on a whim for no reason back in the '50s.

 

[afan]

But all things in Asgard are labeled magical in the comics and all of those rules still apply. "Magic" does not equal "anything goes," necessarily. The root of Thor's powers are magic, but they still follow certain rules. He's only so strong, he can only fly with his hammer, etc. As long as you have internal consistency throughout Thor's appearances, you're fine. You can call it magic or science; it'll still follow certain rules. In terms of fictional narratives, an "anything goes" mentality is usually just flat-out bad writing, like Superman (a sci fi alien hero) developing new powers on a whim for no reason back in the '50s.

That's why I mentioned Dr Strange. To me his brand of magic is an anything goes type. The power of which is limited solely by the mage's ability and knowledge of the craft.

Just an aside thought.......I would like to see something mundane on Earth be considered magical by Thor........say a tempurpedic mattress for instance
It would be a converse introduction of realism to the film.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Volstagg implied that the Asgardians don't have indoor plumbing in one of JMS' issues of Thor. That doesn't really make much sense to me, given the level of the Asgardians' civilization, but it wasn't a big deal.

 

[afan]

With somebody like Volstagg around i would think plumbing would be an absolute necessity

 

[Manowar]

Volstagg implied that the Asgardians don't have indoor plumbing in one of JMS' issues of Thor. That doesn't really make much sense to me, given the level of the Asgardians' civilization, but it wasn't a big deal.

Maybe Asgardians metabolism burns off 100% of all intake consumption. No waste so no indoor plumbing

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Nope, Volstagg said they just toss their s*** off the side of their floating city. Even when it was back in its own dimension, Asgard floated amid a sea of stars on part of its edge.

 

[Vartha]

heh no wonder they moved to Earth. to much S*** floating around where they were.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I like to think there was some kind of portal that led to regular space and all the poop would float harmlessly out there (and occasionally smack the Silver Surfer in the face).

 

[marcvader]

I can't wait for this movie to come out and do well and in essence giving the realismites a big middle finger.

 

[Zur En Arrh]

You can say arc-reactors and radioactive dudes are as outrageous as Asgardians, but that's not true. What is sci-fi? Science made fictitious, i.e. we take what we know for a fact and then we blow it up. Science-fiction is grounded in something real and tangible. Thor's completely imaginary in every sense. He's made-up. Thors and Odins don't exist on any level in reality. Crying suspension-of-disbelief here is a cop-out. Would you accept James Bond partnering with the Egyptian god Thoth in his next movie? No, because James Bond is established as something not fantastical in that sense.

The Marvel Movieverse has established itself as hardline sci-fi. You can't change the game midstream. It breaks the suspension of disbelief.

So, yeah, they can't just 'be' gods. It'd be silly and audiences would think its silly.

Well first, James Bonds universe is nothing like the Marvel universe. That's like saying "Well what if Kathy Bates' character in Fried Green Tomatoes started talking to the Korean Poop God". You can't compare that with "What if Tony Stark met Thor, Norse God of Thunder". Well, it's been happening for almost 50 years. So this isn't really changing midstream. It's an important part of the character and the dynamic of the team.

He may seem a little silly, but people will kind of expect it from seeing the Thor movie. In his solo flick he will probably be the only major hero so you don't have to worry about him mixing with sci fi. As far as Avengers goes, his comparative silliness is part of his charm. He is this great warrior and strong, but he's still kind of silly in our cynical world. When they all meet him they might be like "wow, this guy is a nerd. He's supposed to be powerful?". Then the first time they see him do work with Mjolnir they will understand why he's there. He is Clark Kent and Superman at the same time. Awkward & Powerful.

 

[Chewy]

Iron man = Han Solo = scientist/mechanic/atheist
Thor = Luke Skywalker= mysticism/supernatural force/religion

That's actually a pretty great comparison

Except where Luke Skywalker started off as the farm boy, Thor was always the badass

 

[Tony Stark]

There was an Xbox game a couple of years back called "Too Human". It was a sci-fi game that was based on Norse mythology, where you played Baldur, but they had the whole Norse pantheon.

The way the story went, the Aesir were called "gods", but they were actually cybernetically enhanced humans. Baldur had the least enhancements thus the name for the game, too human. But they were also known for being the protectors of Midguard.

I'm not suggesting that they go that sci-fi, and obviously this has to be the comic book Thor and not some other Thor from various fiction. However I think if they play that angle that they are the protectors of Earth (Midguard), it might work on screen. They were worshipped as "gods" for their great powers, but they are pretty much superbeings from another dimension.

 

[Tony Stark]

The only thing supernatural(magical) about Thor is his power to command the weather. (Hence why he was worshipped mostly by Viking farmers)

Everyone here going on about how will Thor's "magic" be mixed with Iron man's "science tech" in the same movie. Very simple. Think Star Wars

Iron man = Han Solo = scientist/mechanic/atheist
Thor = Luke Skywalker= mysticism/supernatural force/religion

That's actually a better explanation than what I was thinking. I was thinking of Cap, Thor and Iron Man as Kirk, Spock, and Bones. But Thor would be closer to Luke than Spock.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's actually a pretty great comparison

Except where Luke Skywalker started off as the farm boy, Thor was always the badass

Thor is actually a lot more like Anakin Skywalker, come to think of it. Starts off a good, idealistic boy, becomes arrogant due to his own power, gets taken down a peg by his father-figure, and ultimately reforms. Only Thor doesn't die like right after he turns good again.

 

[Thos. Rex, ESQ]

It's not necessarily the mysticism that's the problem. It's that it's not vague or undefined. They're Norse gods. With horns on their helmets and frost giants and world trees. It denies people putting their own spin on it to make it palatable to their particular interpretation, dig?

If Thor was a self-contained movie, it'd be fine with me, but when he's mixing with Hulk and Iron Man, then it kinda forces me into an uncomfortable spot where I have to redefine my interpretation of the world those characters also inhabit.

If we bring in Mandarin and he calls his energy projection Chi, and then we bring in Doc Strange and he calls his incantations Magic ... there's still room for me to say that they're all drawing from the same pool of ethereal goo. With Thor and the Norse gods ... it's pretty cut and dry. They can't also be interpreted as the Greek gods or as Jesus or whatever. They're Norse gods.