Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - Part 4

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]354605[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]349910[/split]

 

[HighFivingMF]

I'm always urged to read Strikes Again just to see how bad it is... But I can never bring myself to do it.

 

[The Batman]

Frank Miller is easily the most overrated Batman writer of all time...

 

[CConn]

How exactly was it a reboot? They retconned some stuff, but Batman's old continuity was still valid, unlike Superman's and Wonder Woman's

Um, because the Batman of the first like 25, 30, whatever issues of Batman is actually the Batman of Earth 2, whereas Frank Miller's Batman was the Batman of Earth 1?

 

[Sawyer]

I'm always urged to read Strikes Again just to see how bad it is... But I can never bring myself to do it.

I would never put myself through that. The art turns me off immediately.

I'll take everyone's word for it that the story is awful, but the art is just... horrifying.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Um, because the Batman of the first like 25, 30, whatever issues of Batman is actually the Batman of Earth 2, whereas Frank Miller's Batman was the Batman of Earth 1?

The cut between Earth-1 and Earth-2 isn't as clear as you think. Hugo Strange appears in the 70s and is apparently the same one as the guy from Batman #1 (It's even mentioned in an editor remark). The "Year One"-Batman is obviously the Post-Crisis Batman who is a continuation of the Earth-1 Batman, the Earth-2 Batman was eliminated.

After the crisis the Batman ran into his own villains like nothing happened. Catwoman still knew his secret identity, Jason Todd was Robin and so on... But really, Batman's continuity has always been blurry since this point. In Knightfall he didn't even know Selina Kyle, which doesn't make sense considering their history.

 

[Mystirious]

The story is just as horrifying

Also was it really bad that she was a Dominatrix considering she already had the whole whip thing going on? It's not like she was a ****e.

I loved her being a dominatrix with so much love

One of the things about year one that i actually liked

 

[CConn]

The cut between Earth-1 and Earth-2 isn't as clear as you think. Hugo Strange appears in the 70s and is apparently the same one as the guy from Batman #1 (It's even mentioned in an editor remark). The "Year One"-Batman is obviously the Post-Crisis Batman who is a continuation of the Earth-1 Batman, the Earth-2 Batman was eliminated.

After the crisis the Batman ran into his own villains like nothing happened. Catwoman still knew his secret identity, Jason Todd was Robin and so on... But really, Batman's continuity has always been blurry since this point. In Knightfall he didn't even know Selina Kyle, which doesn't make sense considering their history.

That's because in the 70s, they hadn't really fully figured out the whole multiple Earths...thing.

After COIE, they made it a little more...firm.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

I imagine a certain amount of O'Neil's quality when he was main writer on Batman was due to Julie Schwartz' influence. Back then DC actually had editors and standards.

I agree here, I will also add Neal Adams. Certain teams just have the right synergy.

The only useful part of Year: One was Flass, Loeb and Falcone.

And oddly enough, they never used or mentioned these guys once "Year One" was finished (Yes, TLH, but that came out YEARS later). "Year One" didn't really seem to have any relevance to the then on-going titles. It sticks out as something that doesn't really fit, pre- and post-crisis. At the same time Miller was celebrating his grim 'n' dark stuff Mike W. Barr wrote a smiling Batman in 'Tec (and yet someone who actually killed!)

Then the odd "Legends" crossover that came out before "Year One", yet is clearly post-crisis...

Miller is really good with crime comics, or at least he was. I guess that's why Sin City sort of works for me more than most of his other work besides Daredevil. I don't mind sleazy or noir or exploitation stuff, I just don't like it in superhero comics. I mean, I think EC published the best comics of all time and they were violent and dark and grisly-I just like my superheroes, even Batman, to be not as brutal as Miller's stuff. I was okay with DKR until Superman showed up as a government puppet. DKSR makes me sick and the treatment of Dick Grayson in it was disgusting enough that I never want to see Miller write Batman again, so I'm glad All-Star was never finished.

I agree here, of course, again.


[/quote]

 

[TruerToTheCore]

That's because in the 70s, they hadn't really fully figured out the whole multiple Earths...thing.

They had. It's just that not everyone really cared. So the early Batman years could have been the same for Earth-1 AND Earth-2 Batman, after all it was in those years most villlains and Robin made their debut and they never got their new Earth-1 origin stories.

 

[CConn]

They had. It's just that not everyone really cared. So the early Batman years could have been the same for Earth-1 AND Earth-2 Batman, after all it was in those years most villlains and Robin made their debut and they never got their new Earth-1 origin stories.

That's my point, though. YO could rather be viewed as a new telling of Batman, not just a retelling of the Earth-2 origin.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I came late to the party but let me say that I think Begins was 10 times better than Year One. Ok, except for those lame one liners.

We're not talking about TDKR.

We're talking about how Year One is nothing more than Batman's previously written origin stapled onto an average origin story for Jim Gordon.

But the art was good.

Exactly.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

That's my point, though. YO could rather be viewed as a new telling of Batman, not just a retelling of the Earth-2 origin.

It could be.

The Post-Crisis Batman is essentially the same as the Earth-1 with some changes such as a new Jason Todd and Alfred as the surrogate father of Bruce, but still... that doesn't qualify as a reboot to me, rather just some retconning.

Not related to this: I heard that the Mad Hatter-II, the impostor, finally re-appeared after 24 years or something (again, the so-called "Impostor" was in fact the one to use the name "Jervis Tetch" for the first time), was there anything special to this appearance?

 

[CConn]

Story/plot wise BB was a zillion times better than YO. If that plot was taken and crafted by a writer that's actually good (IE, not David Goyer), it could've been a phenomenal movie/comic/whatever.

 

[CConn]

It could be.

The Post-Crisis Batman is essentially the same as the Earth-1 with some changes such as a new Jason Todd and Alfred as the surrogate father of Bruce, but still... that doesn't qualify as a reboot to me, rather just some retconning.

I thought the Post Crisis Batman was Earth-1 Batman.

I'm getting very confused.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

I thought the Post Crisis Batman was Earth-1 Batman.

I'm getting very confused.

Well, yeah. This is "syntax talk" now. To be exact, there was no Earth-1 after the Crisis anymore, but the new DC Universe Earth basically was Earth-1 with some aspects of Earth-2...

My brain is exploding.

 

[Mr. Earle]

@ Kurosawa:

I was okay with DKR until Superman showed up as a government puppet. DKSR makes me sick and the treatment of Dick Grayson in it was disgusting enough that I never want to see Miller write Batman again, so I'm glad All-Star was never finished.

I didnt like what Miller did with Superman either, but i think that he was making a point, which was that in the future heroes wont be able to operate freely the way they do today, so you either bow down to the goverment like Superman or you become an outlaw like Batman. While his Superman was a government puppet, his Batman was a self righteous, almost psychotic vigilante who created an army to shape the world however he liked.

Both SM and BM lost, but comics lost even more when other writers mistook TDKR's success as a hint that GRIMDARK batman is awesome and that people love him, and that's why during the 90ies Batman was almost as crazy as the Joker, pushing people away, being almost paranoid, and all that. Those stupid writers thought that that was cool and good writing and since the masses ate that up, who was gonna stop them?

Thank god for Morrison!

 

[Spade]

While I respect what Miller did for Batman, I prefer what was before and what's come after his time. The Batman who gets off on the whistling of broken noses doesn't fit with Bruce's mission.

 

[The Batman]

Not related to this: I heard that the Mad Hatter-II, the impostor, finally re-appeared after 24 years or something (again, the so-called "Impostor" was in fact the one to use the name "Jervis Tetch" for the first time), was there anything special to this appearance?

He was in Batman 700 during the "today" chapter of the story, as a part of a supervillain auction. Morrison renamed him "hatman".

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Both SM and BM lost, but comics lost even more when other writers mistook TDKR's success as a hint that GRIMDARK batman is awesome and that people love him, [...]

Fanboys loved him, Denny O'Neil loved him... It's not like they didn't gave the readers what they didn't want... at first... at the end of the 90s the whole take got ******ed.

Those stupid writers thought that that was cool and good writing and since the masses ate that up, who was gonna stop them?

Thank god for Morrison!

Well, Morrison got his inspiration from me.

It's pretty much a well-known effect, people at some point just didn't know the different Batman stuff anymore AND were bombarded with propaganda that Batman before Frank Miller was lame and Adam West (same with Superman). Thanks for the internet that made it possible to enlighten at least SOME of those guys.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

He was in Batman 700 during the "today" chapter of the story, as a part of a supervillain auction. Morrison renamed him "hatman".

Thanks, interesting.

I've always wanted to see a Mad Hatter Versus Fake Hatter story.

 

[Kurosawa]

I'm always urged to read Strikes Again just to see how bad it is... But I can never bring myself to do it.

It's excruciating.

Frank Miller is easily the most overrated Batman writer of all time...

Agreed.

The cut between Earth-1 and Earth-2 isn't as clear as you think. Hugo Strange appears in the 70s and is apparently the same one as the guy from Batman #1 (It's even mentioned in an editor remark). The "Year One"-Batman is obviously the Post-Crisis Batman who is a continuation of the Earth-1 Batman, the Earth-2 Batman was eliminated.

It was not as blatant a reboot as MOS, but Year One was a reboot still. Unlike with Superman, the Earth-One Batman's continuity was pretty much the same as the Earth-Two versions and came from the Golden Age comics. So with the Earth-One Batman, Alfred was not Thomas Wayne's butler, his father Jarvis was. Gordon was already Commissioner when Batman started. Joker didn't appear until after Batman had teamed up with Robin. Year One cannot be fit into the Earth-One Batman's continuity. It contradicts his history. What it didn't do, except for the very bad decision to make Selina Kyle a ****e, was contradict the core idea of Batman. It was faithful to that but the details of the previous continuity were changed. Plus Batman was a supporting character in the story, as Gordon was more important.

After the crisis the Batman ran into his own villains like nothing happened. Catwoman still knew his secret identity, Jason Todd was Robin and so on... But really, Batman's continuity has always been blurry since this point. In Knightfall he didn't even know Selina Kyle, which doesn't make sense considering their history.

Batman had a period between COIE and Year One where he pretty much continued with the same history and setup as the Earth-One Batman. Batman #400 was the last issue of that version really. Jason Todd's origin and personality were changed, Year One pretty much threw out every previous Batman story, etc. They were more subtle with Batman's reboot than they were with Superman's, but it was still a reboot.

The story is just as horrifying



I loved her being a dominatrix with so much love

One of the things about year one that i actually liked

I can't stand her as a ****e but there's always been a BDSM element to her character. Not as completely kinky and insane as Wonder Woman but it has always been there.

 

[Mr. Earle]

While I respect what Miller did for Batman, I prefer what was before and what's come after his time. The Batman who gets off on the whistling of broken noses doesn't fit with Bruce's mission.

I used to have a relevant Morrison quote in my sig. He basically said that he thought that Batman had turned into a thug with very primal insticts and morals whereas he thought of him as a rennaissance man, as a man of zen, a genius, a man who's traveled the world and seen everything and done everything. That man shouldnt be a glorified Rorshach and he thought he needed to bring him back to that.

I agree with him.

 

[Mystirious]

That happened off panel

When the real Mad Hatter returned he said he had killed the impostor who had been calling himself the Mad Hatter