OFFICIAL: Best CBM of 2014 thread (so far)

[Tony Stark]

Agreed. In Avengers for example he had almost all the key moments



Same



There's been five X-Men movies, he's been in four of them.

X-Men is an team franchise, whereas the MCU is a collection of different franchises so it's not comparable. What is comparable is comparing the team franchises. Wolverines been in 4/5 and Stark will be in 2/2 team movies.

This argument is so weak, I don't even know where to start other than to point out that Jackman was in every X-men based film. He's the only one who has been.

 

[def28]

Yup. It's just denial at this point. The only X movie Wolverine wasn't in for the past 14 years without a starring role was First Class. Fox look to be changing that now, by expanding their X films and a tv show.

Wolverine is one of my fav characters, but that guy has definitely stolen the spotlight more from the X verse then Stark has with the MCU. Not saying they should completely drop Wolverine solos or being a major part of the X verse but Fox could have made other X-Men properties based on characters other then Wolverine beforehand but they chose not to.

 

[See Cap Run]

If we include all MCU films from 2008-2019, Stark will have only appeared in about 8 out of 22 films and Cap in about 7 of 22: I'd say they're letting all their characters shine. The same unfortunately couldn't be said about X-Men for a while but with FC and DOFP the situation's been improving.

 

[Erzengel]

Also, all this talk about RDJ in Captain America 3 is for a set up for Civil War which will carry over to Avengers 3, right? Not to mention both characters were pretty much the main characters in that story?

 

[def28]

If we include all MCU films from 2008-2019, Stark will have only appeared in about 8 out of 22 films and Cap in about 7 of 22: I'd say they're letting all their characters shine. The same unfortunately couldn't be said about X-Men for a while but with FC and DOFP the situation's been improving.

Exactly.

I'd say Fox is definitely upping their X-Men game right now, and realize how much they have in their hands. Lot has changed since X3 times.

 

[DeadPresident]

Yes but both Avengers and GOTG are team films from the MCU film series and they exist in the same film universe: Marvel could have used Stark as a crutch in GOTG to ensure its box office success since it was a very risky project. They chose not to however as Marvel has confidence in all its characters.

Hmmm, I dunno about that one. I get your logic, but I think the GA, idiots though they are, would have been a little perplexed at Iron Man showing up in a franchise that he had not until that point been involved with. And to the CBM community it would have been point blank admission that Marvel know Iron Man is the crown jewel for them.

I'm not arguing that Marvel are putting out some quality stuff, and GotG didn't need Iron Man because it was solid, well executed fun. But it would be asinine for Marvel and X-Men fans alike not to recognize that without Iron Man and Wolverine their respective franchises wouldn't have quite the GA draw that they do. I mean in AOU Tony Stark literally creates the titular enemy, and now Stark's part of Cap 3 too...? I'm not saying other characters don't get their time, they do, but the majority of the driving decisions in the MCU seem to come from Stark. They could have gone with another origin for Ultron, but they made Tony the mover in that dynamic too.

Anyways, it's obvious this is turning into a bit of a Marvel circle jerk now...so...exit, stage left.

 

[Erzengel]

Like I mentioned, if they are setting up Civil Wars in Captain America 3, then RDJ should be a part of it. If they need to split up the Avengers and have a new team in Avengers 3 Part I only for them to rally back together in Avengers 3 Part II against Thanos (speculation) sounds like a solid story.

I think this year with TWS and GOTG, it's obvious that Marvel can put out not only quality but profitable movies without the use of RDJ.

I just want FOX to be able to do the same. Deadpool and AoA without Wolverine would be delightful.

 

[DeadPresident]

What I will say is I'm glad Cap isn't coming off like a naive stooge anymore, and that TWS has made him seem less like Iron Man's little ***** the way it came off in TA. I'm speaking under correction, so correct me if I'm wrong or off, but Civil War ends with

Spoiler

Iron Man killing Steve Rogers?

which would seem like such a waste after making Cap such a strong member.

Thor and Banner are still being shafted, that's for sure.

 

[Tony Stark]

What I will say is I'm glad Cap isn't coming off like a naive stooge anymore, and that TWS has made him seem less like Iron Man's little ***** the way it came off in TA. I'm speaking under correction, so correct me if I'm wrong or off, but Civil War ends with

Spoiler

Iron Man killing Steve Rogers?

which would seem like such a waste after making Cap such a strong member.

Thor and Banner are still being shafted, that's for sure.

Yes your wrong, on many fronts. But maybe you should actually understand the source material before making accusations.

 

[Erzengel]

I don't see how Cap in any way kowtows to IM in the Avengers? They meet up when they apprehend Loki. And there's a back and forth between Cap and IM until he tells him to put on the suit before the helicarrier is attacked. They join up to fix the helicarrier. Then Cap leads them in the Battle of NY.

Civil War ends with Rogers about to take down IM and him being tackled by bystanders? He then surrenders to the Authorities. Rogers is killed by Crossbones and a brainwashed Sharon Carter in his own comic not during Civil War.

 

[See Cap Run]

It was Cap who recognized that being captured was part of Loki's plan. He also helped counsel Tony out of his funk after Coulson died and he coordinated The Avengers' attack at the end. He also challenged Stark to be enough of a hero to sacrifice himself if needed for the greater good which directly resulted in the victory of The Avengers: He was no ones stooge.

 

[DeadPresident]

Yes your wrong, on many fronts. But maybe you should actually understand the source material before making accusations.

My mistake. Hence why I added "correct me if I'm wrong", but luckily Erzengel is less intent on being a *****enozzle and has informed me as to where I was mistaken.

I don't see how Cap in any way kowtows to IM in the Avengers? They meet up when they apprehend Loki. And there's a back and forth between Cap and IM until he tells him to put on the suit before the helicarrier is attacked. They join up to fix the helicarrier. Then Cap leads them in the Battle of NY.

Civil War ends with Rogers about to take down IM and him being tackled by bystanders? He then surrenders to the Authorities. Rogers is killed by Crossbones and a brainwashed Sharon Carter in his own comic not during Civil War.

Ah ok, my mistake, I was watching Youtube videos summarizing major Marvel comic storylines and a video I watched made it sound like Stark is responsible for Rogers' death at the end of Civil War. Maybe I'm conflating things because of how many videos I watched successively, either way, my mistake.

 

[Erzengel]

Just as an aside.

The top 5 WW grossing Marvel Cinematic Universe is as follows:
Marvel's the Avengers
Iron Man 3
Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Thor: The Dark World

For the record, RDJ only appears in 2 out of the top 5.

 

[DeadPresident]

Just as an aside.

The top 5 WW grossing Marvel Cinematic Universe is as follows:
Marvel's the Avengers
Iron Man 3
Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Thor: The Dark World

For the record, RDJ only appears in 2 out of the top 5.

That's a fair point, I suppose one could even say that both Thor and Cap appear as many times as Iron Man do in their top 5 grossing projects

 

[First Avenger]

Just as an aside.

The top 5 WW grossing Marvel Cinematic Universe is as follows:
Marvel's the Avengers
Iron Man 3
Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Thor: The Dark World

For the record, RDJ only appears in 2 out of the top 5.

Too much Iron Man :P .

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't see how Cap in any way kowtows to IM in the Avengers? They meet up when they apprehend Loki. And there's a back and forth between Cap and IM until he tells him to put on the suit before the helicarrier is attacked. They join up to fix the helicarrier. Then Cap leads them in the Battle of NY.

Civil War ends with Rogers about to take down IM and him being tackled by bystanders? He then surrenders to the Authorities. Rogers is killed by Crossbones and a brainwashed Sharon Carter in his own comic not during Civil War.

Agreed. Cap doesn't bend to follow Iron Man in Avengers. The only time he takes orders from him is when they're fixing the engine, but he isn't a technical genius like Stark is, so not listening to him at that point would have been strategically stupid.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

...because Tony Stark isn't part of that team?

That's like saying the next F4 movies will all be without Wolverine. No ****, that's not the team-up he's part of.

Exactly

Iron Man technically is a Guardian

In the comics, because of their attempt to make him the new flagship.

Yes but both Avengers and GOTG are team films from the MCU film series and they exist in the same film universe: Marvel could have used Stark as a crutch in GOTG to ensure its box office success since it was a very risky project. They chose not to however as Marvel has confidence in all its characters.

Universe but not team. Only franchises that Iron Man appears or is a part of should count not every single non-Iron Man related franchise in the universe

Guardians, Thor and all the others he wasn't a part of shouldn't be counted as they aren't his franchises. Doc strange for example shouldn't have Iron Man as it's about doc Strange and his supporting characters and villains so it shouldn't be counted as a movie that could've included Stark but didn't.

The Iron Man solos and avengers are his main turf. Just as Wolverine solos and X-Men films are wolverines turf and not every other Fox Marvel movie.

 

[Erzengel]

But this is where the debate continues, because while we only have a 1 movie sample with RDJ, I think most people here agree that it was "The Avengers" and not "Iron Man and the Avengers".

And like I said earlier that Fox did a better job balancing characters with DOFP, although the debate of who's movie is it really is ongoing here, but let's not ignore that it was like Wolverine and the X-Men 1 - The Last Stand.

It's cool that we're getting a Deadpool and Apocalypse with a younger Scott, Jean, Ororo. Wolverine cameos? Fine. But let's have a X-Men movie that's doesn't heavily rely on Wolverine.

 

[Shikamaru]

There is nothing inherently wrong with having Iron Man or Wolverine as part of their respective team; they're both essential characters to their mythos. Problems only arise when the team isn't balanced and one character is overexposed at the expense of everyone else.

Marvel did no such thing with Iron Man (yet), Fox did just that with Wolverine in every film he was in prior to DOFP. That's just the truth.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Also, all this talk about RDJ in Captain America 3 is for a set up for Civil War which will carry over to Avengers 3, right? Not to mention both characters were pretty much the main characters in that story?

That begs the question thought as to why they are going with Civil War in Cap 3, it just seems an excuse to get Stark involved which I just dont agree with on several levels.

For one, after TWS, I want to see more Cap, TWS, Falcon, Sharon, Crossbones and anyone else they want to bring in, maybe Hawkeye. Adding Stark to me just seems like overkill and a way to 'beat' Batman vs Superman. And I think if RDJ was willing to do IM4, we wouldnt be getting CW in Cap 3.

For two, a Civil War story, with about 15 heroes involved? Doesnt sound like much of a war to me. And I think the reason they picked it is because Stark is heavily involved. The only thing is, in the comics they were friends for YEARS before the CW kicked, thats what made the story so emotionally powerful. In the MCU, I wouldnt even consider them friends.

Just as an aside.

The top 5 WW grossing Marvel Cinematic Universe is as follows:
Marvel's the Avengers
Iron Man 3
Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Thor: The Dark World

For the record, RDJ only appears in 2 out of the top 5.

The thing is though, 4 out of 5 of those movies came after The Avengers, which gave every movie after it a boost at the BO, the other one was The Avengers, which was always going to be successful. So I dont think thats really a fair point to make. I will just point out that Iron Man was on his 3rd movie before any of the other Avengers were on their 2nd, that says a lot to me. And he is going to now be the driving force behind not only Avengers 2, but Cap 3 now as well.

I had thought GOTG would mean they would avoid using Iron Man so much, unfortunately I was wrong, I personally really dont want him in Cap 3, and I am bigger Iron Man fan than Cap fan.

Also, you wont find me arguing that Wolverine has been over-used in the X-Franchise, but Fox knew he was the most popular character from the start, and as a movie studio they have other movies to make other than CBM's, which makes things more difficult for them. Plus, after the way Fox was with their movies from 2004-2009, I am glad we didnt get any more X-Movies at that point!

 

[See Cap Run]

There is nothing inherently wrong with having Iron Man or Wolverine as part of their respective team; they're both essential characters to their mythos. Problems only arise when the team isn't balanced and one character is overexposed at the expense of everyone else.

Marvel did no such thing with Iron Man (yet), Fox did just that with Wolverine in every film he was in prior to DOFP. That's just the truth.

Exactly



In the comics, because of their attempt to make him the new flagship.



Universe but not team. Only franchises that Iron Man appears or is a part of should count not every single non-Iron Man related franchise in the universe

Guardians, Thor and all the others he wasn't a part of shouldn't be counted as they aren't his franchises. Doc strange for example shouldn't have Iron Man as it's about doc Strange and his supporting characters and villains so it shouldn't be counted as a movie that could've included Stark but didn't.

The Iron Man solos and avengers are his main turf. Just as Wolverine solos and X-Men films are wolverines turf and not every other Fox Marvel movie.

Actually, Marvel is contractually able to include Stark in any of their films they choose whereas Fox can only include Logan in their X-Men films.

Therefore, one couldn't use the fact that Wolverine is absent from non-X Men Marvel movies to support ones argument whereas one could use Iron Man being absent from any Marvel film.

The Marvel film series and the Fox Marvel film series are apples and oranges in this regard.

As an example, Marvel could contractually include Tony Stark into the Netflix Daredevil series whereas Fox couldn't have done included Wolverine in the Daredevil movie without facing legal ramifications.

All the Fox Marvel film series are contractually separate whereas the MCiU film series are not.

 

[Erzengel]

That begs the question thought as to why they are going with Civil War in Cap 3, it just seems an excuse to get Stark involved which I just dont agree with on several levels.

For one, after TWS, I want to see more Cap, TWS, Falcon, Sharon, Crossbones and anyone else they want to bring in, maybe Hawkeye. Adding Stark to me just seems like overkill and a way to 'beat' Batman vs Superman. And I think if RDJ was willing to do IM4, we wouldnt be getting CW in Cap 3.

For two, a Civil War story, with about 15 heroes involved? Doesnt sound like much of a war to me. And I think the reason they picked it is because Stark is heavily involved. The only thing is, in the comics they were friends for YEARS before the CW kicked, thats what made the story so emotionally powerful. In the MCU, I wouldnt even consider them friends.

It's all in the way it's written. Also we don't know how much of a role RDJ if it's supporting or more of a beefed up cameo?

But let's remember, that not all CBM are fully adapted from the originals.

We got a bastardized version of the Dark Phoenix saga where Cyclops was killed in the beginning.

We have a more Dark Knight Returns Batman than a younger Batman for Batman vs. Superman who's probably been doing it for 15-20 years.

We had Harry Osborn not Norman Osborn kill Gwen and in this incarnation, she knew that Peter Parker was Spider-Man.

I groaned when I read that Wolverine was going to take Kitty's role in Days of Future Past. But it worked out and not only that, it erased a lot of the garbage from TLS and possibly Wolverine Origins.

The thing is though, 4 out of 5 of those movies came after The Avengers, which gave every movie after it a boost at the BO, the other one was The Avengers, which was always going to be successful. So I dont think thats really a fair point to make. I will just point out that Iron Man was on his 3rd movie before any of the other Avengers were on their 2nd, that says a lot to me. And he is going to now be the driving force behind not only Avengers 2, but Cap 3 now as well.

You would think a regular audience member understands that Iron Man isn't going to pop up in every other MCU movie. '

I'm not going to argue that Iron Man until Avengers came out was the most profitable property. But as I said before, not many people thought it was Iron Man and the Avengers. It was just the Avengers. So it's MUCH easier to say that Iron Man doesn't need to be the driving force in Avengers 2 when the previous movie, it was more of a collective balance.

And again, we don't know how big of role RDJ will have, but I don't see him as the "driving force" behind a Captain America movie.

If you think of the current state in the MCU. Shield is disbanded. Cap and Falcon are on their own looking for answers. There is a level of mistrust. We don't know what the Avengers fit in when there's no more Shield per se or Fury being the director.

I had thought GOTG would mean they would avoid using Iron Man so much, unfortunately I was wrong, I personally really dont want him in Cap 3, and I am bigger Iron Man fan than Cap fan.

I don't think IM is being overused. I don't think he outshines every other character in Avengers. And again he's not going to outshine Captain America in his own movie.

Also, you wont find me arguing that Wolverine has been over-used in the X-Franchise, but Fox knew he was the most popular character from the start, and as a movie studio they have other movies to make other than CBM's, which makes things more difficult for them. Plus, after the way Fox was with their movies from 2004-2009, I am glad we didnt get any more X-Movies at that point!

Wolverine became popular because of the X-Men movies.

Iron Man became popular because of the Iron Man movies.

Iron Man is probably the closest comparison you could make but the Avengers wasn't an Iron Man movie. X-Men 1 - X-Men: The Last Stand were for the most part Wolverine movies. Captain America 3 isn't going to be an Iron Man movie.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Iron Man was has been in more movies than Cap and Thor because his first movie came out three years before theirs. Simple as that. He even had a sequel out before their first films. Since then, they (3 each) have been in more films than he has (2).

Also, Civil War is a storyline that would be a lot more effective if Evans and Downey are both around for it. Their contracts are running out, so if Marvel wants to do Civil War, they basically have to start right away.

 

[SymbioteKal-El]

I think both SIDS of this argument need to admit that Iron Man and Wolverine have both been used extensively and both will continue to be so. Marvel has more choices they can branch out with which they are doing and Fox now is at least looking to expand the x-universe.

 

[Erzengel]

I think there's a significant difference between the way Wolverine has been used in the X-Men movies and how Iron Man has been used in the MCU. Like I said previously, the Avengers is not an Iron Man movie but X-Men 1 - X: TLS are heavily driven Wolverine movies.