Part III of Matt Adlers talk with
THE CLONE SAGAs Tom DeFalco
Hey folks, Matt Adler back again. At long last, we come to the conclusion of the interview that made the Clone Saga look like a walk in the park (but hopefully with a more satisfying resolution). In Part 3, Tom talks about raising Kaine, whether Aunt May will die (again), whether Mary Jane has a bun in the oven, his view of the ramifications of One More Day, if Spider-Girl will tell you where the new Clone Saga is going, and his relationship with Joe Quesada.
MA: Now, looking at the preview art thats been released, I see a couple of interesting things. First, on one page, we clearly see that the damaged Peter Parker clone Kaine shows up. How do you see him as a character?
TD: I see Kaine as the guy Peter Parker could have become if he hadnt had a sense of responsibility. Kaine never had a break. He was cursed from the moment he first opened his eyes. He came out scarred. Hes been considered a defective from the first moment he opened his eyes. And he was supposed to die, but didnt. So I have a lot of sympathy for Kaine, which probably explains why I use him so much in SPIDER-GIRL.
MA: On another page, we see Aunt May in some physical distress, and then in a hospital bed, which would seem to follow with the storyline that culminated in the classic AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #400. Is it safe to say you couldnt remove that story element from the Clone Saga, that it was so important?
TD: I will say that those scenes are part of our story. And I will also say that anybody who gets a chance should read AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #400 by Marc DeMatteis. I maintain that is close to his best work; his best work has yet to be seen.
MA: The last one that I was curious about: we see Mary Jane rush out of the hospital room, and into the bathroom, and we then see her wiping her mouth, which would seem to indicate that she got a little sick. Now, we know what her condition was in the original Clone Saga; care to comment?
TD: Well, if we already know, we know.
(laughter)
MA: So basically it is kind of following that?
TD: I didnt say that.
(laughs) I just said, if we already know whats going on, then we already know whats going on.
(laughter)
MA: Ok, so maybe this is one of the classic DeFalco fakeouts, then.
TD: Classic DeFalco fakeouts?! Im shocked and appalled you would even suggest such a thing! Me?! Me?! Come on!
(laughter)
MA: Ok, so what were some of your favorite moments from the original Clone Saga?
TD: Its hard for me to say. The people I worked with were great, but the situation was horrible, and because of the contract I had, I was unable to quit projects. I had a contract with Marvel, and my contract said Marvel could basically stick me wherever they wanted. And they paid very well for that privilege. So it was either stick with it, or give up writing comics. Luckily I had things outside of comics that I could have fun with, and the contract ended around 2000 or 2001.
MA: Now, you know from reading WILDGUARD how much Todd Nauck likes designing costumes and stuff like that, and he said hed be opening to doing redesigns on this series. You think theres anything visually-wise in the Clone Saga that could use updating? What about the Scarlet Spider costume?
TD: We talk with Todd, and we may update some things visually, but its gotta be recognizable to those who remember it, and yet has to appeal to those who never experienced it.
MA: Have you guys given any thought to the Ben Reilly Spider-Man costume?
TD: Uhhh
yes.
MA: Say no more! I know thats spoiler area! (laughs)
TD: Yeah, thats spoiler area!
(laughs)
MA: So this story is the writers cut of the Clone Saga, right? Its what you wouldve done if there hadnt been all that interference?
TD: Yes, but in many regards Howard and I are different writers now, so hopefully itll be a little better than what we would have done all those years ago
(laughs)
MA: Some people have Spider-Girl in some respects as what you would have done in terms of how the Clone Saga ended up. Should people be looking to that in terms of this new story, or does it completely diverge?
TD: You mean will SPIDER-GIRL give you hints as to how this thing is going?
MA: Yeah.
TD: It will give you some hints, but not others.
MA: So we havent seen all the tricks up your sleeve yet.
TD: Gee, I hope nobody ever sees all the tricks up my sleeve. I believe it is my job to set you up so that you are convinced you know what is going to happen next, and then for me to pull a sleight-of-hand. I think Ive been lucky because thankfully, I work with intelligent artists who come up with better ideas than I do most of the time, and we can often catch people by surprise, hopefully in a delightful way.
But Im still trying to get good
(laughs). And I actually believe that you give me a couple more years, and Ill actually learn how to do this stuff right. And Im serious about that; I think Im just a few years away from really having a good grasp on how to do comics the correct way.
MA: In all seriousness
TD: I am serious!
MA: Ok, well, day to day, when youre working on the comics, what do you focus on in terms of, This is something I want to do better?
TD: I dont think I will ever be perfectly happy with my dialogue. I dont think Ill ever be perfectly happy with my plotting, or my characterization. I think I can do a bunch of diverse characters, but I think I need to expand that repertoire. I have been cursed and blessed by being surrounded by people who have amazing talent. Stan Lee, the unbelievable idea factory; Mark Gruenwald who used to come up with these BRILLIANT concepts
MA: I cant tell you how much I loved his run on QUASAR.
TD: Yeah, just the stuff that he could come up with. And I always looked at him and thought, man, I will never in my life come up with ideas as good as that. And Marc DeMatteis, who, a lot of times, I would read his dialogueand it was sheer poetry. And it would just frustrate the hell out of me that I couldnt come anywhere near his level of poetry, and Im talking about his regular dialogue! Even his silent pages are poetic to me. And I look at so many guys, that I think Oh man, this is so much better than I do, and this guy does this so much better, and I gotta just keep working and practicing, and working and practicing.
MA: Ok, youre doing this story in 6 issues. The original Clone Saga was
God knows how long. 3 years, how many issues, I dont know. But as long as that dragged out, and many of the parts mightve been superfluous, there seemed to be one element of it that maybe benefited from the time over which it played out. And to me, that was Bens character.
Because I felt like the time that they had to play it out
you look at stories like The Lost Years [the years between the original clone story and the Clone Saga], and building up his relationship with Peter, and how they were able to give him his own supporting cast at the Daily Grind.
And you know, with a lot of double stories, where the hero meets his double, 90% of the time, the double comes across as a weak or inferior copy of the original. Not an equal to him. But the unique thing to me about Ben was, he came across as an equal to Peter. He wasnt just a knock-off, he wasnt just an imitation. And I think thats why people accepted him as Peters brother, almost. To the point where you almost felt if not for the 20 years of history preceding, it really didnt matter which one of them was the real one because they were both real in that sense. If you get what I mean?
TD: Good! Thats what we were going for.
MA: So my long-winded question with that is
given that, given how, at the time at least, it took 3 years to build and develop all of that to the point where we were outraged when he was finally killed off
can you do that in 6 issues?
TD: I hope! We are going to do these stories, and we hope that we can get all of that in. Each issue will in some ways stand on its own, and be part of a greater whole, which is the way I do things anyway. Were going try to get everybody to love Ben the way people came to love him back then. Will we use a shorthand in 6 issues because we dont have 60 issues? Yeah. But were gonna try our best.
MA: Ok, let me ask you about a couple of characters Im pretty sure we WONT see in this update. Spidercide?
TD: To be honest, I barely remember him. He just doesnt fit into the story were trying to tell.
MA: What about Traveller and Scrier?
TD: They were kind of a side route. So were trying to get rid of all of the side routes.
MA: I think I remember you saying that they didnt really fit with Spider-Man, given their mystical natures.
TD: Well, I think anything can fit with Spider-Man. But ultimately we found out that they were not mystical characters. They SEEMED to be mystical characters but later on we discovered that they werent.
MA: But I think I remember reading that Marc DeMatteis original intent with the characters was that Traveller was going to be some kind of guy from hundreds of years in the past, and Scrier was supposed to be some kind of near-immortal entity, or something like that?
TD: Well, when I ultimately did the story that revealed who they were, I checked with Marc, and I dont recall that he had any ideas in that regard.
MA: Ok. Now, when did you come up with the idea for Mary Janes pregnancy, which was revealed during the Saga?
TD: Before we started it.
MA: So were you intending to have Spider-Man with a family and a child as an ongoing thing?
TD: Um
read the limited series.
(laughter)
MA: Ok.
TD: That question is answered in the limited series.
MA: Now, what about the back door that youve long talked about, as the way that you were going to establish that Peter Parker was the One, True Spider-Man? How was that going to work?
TD: Well, Id have to have the books in front of me
MA: I think it was something involving Seward Trainer, right? Like his test equipment that was used to establish Peter as the clone was rigged?
TD: Yeah, well Seward was working for the Jackal.
MA: And theyd basically been messing with Peter Parkers head.
TD: Right.
MA: One of the topics of debate among people who worked on the Saga was whether there should be a married Spider-Man, and some have said that they wanted to permanently replace Peter Parker with Ben Reilly, in order to get back to a single character. Was that your original intention with the Clone Saga?
TD: No. The people who have said that were not among those who originally started the project.
MA: Obviously this is something Marvel has come back to over the years, most recently with One More Day. Do you agree with the people who say Peter Parker has to be single?
TD: It depends on how you view Spider-Man. Tom Brevoort recently said that the Spider-Man series is all about youth. And hes the editor, so he gets to call the shots. Now, when I was the editor of Spider-Man, I thought the series was all about responsibility.
MA: And what greater responsibility could you have then a family?
TD: Right. So I think that if youre playing that the series is about responsibility, that allows you to have him get married, ultimately allows you to have him have a baby, because the more responsibilities you pile on the character, his life and the series become more interesting.
MA: Do you differ with the people who say if hes got a wife and a child, the real responsible thing would be for him to hang up the webs?
TD: I think therein lies the conflict.
MA: Does it make him an irresponsible guy to continue going out and fighting supervillains even with those responsibilities at home?
TD: We have people who do that on a regular basis. They are called policemen; they are called firemen; they are called soldiers, sailors, air force people. They put themselves in harms way to protect the public. Do I think they are being irresponsible to their families by doing that? Absolutely not. I think that we see heroes every day around us, and Im sure that the wife of a cop doesnt want her husband to get involved in gun battles with drug dealers, but if hes got to do it, he does what he has to do. Thats basically where Im at.
MA: Whats your relationship like with Joe Quesada?
TD: He is and has always been a fan of SPIDER-GIRL. He liked SPIDER-GIRL when we first came out! He has always been very supportive. Im going to tell you something that shouldnt be a secret, but everybody seems to miss it; an editor-in-chief does not have to go out of his way to get rid of a comic book. All he has to do is snap his fingers. So, every once in a while, I hear people say things like Joe is trying to kill the book, or Joe is trying to do this, or Joe is trying to do that. Joe doesnt have to try to do anything. His will is law. Hes like Odin.
(laughs) So what Joe spends his time doing is figuring out how to save books. And probably the books that people are accusing him of trying to kill! And Joe works very hard trying to figure out how to help books. Joe loves comics. And I wish him the best of luck, because he has a very aggravating and frustrating job. I give him a tremendous amount of credit on how available he is to the fans. He does a regular column, and he goes to a ton of conventions. Hes out there, and I just give him a tremendous amount of credit.
Also, I just want to say, the nice thing about this Clone Saga project is, two of the assistant editors
MA: Michael Horwitz?
TD: Michael Horwitz and Tom Brennan. Tom Brennan is my editor on SPIDER-GIRL. And I want to say, he is so supportive and just so wonderful to work with. He is just great.
MA: I think some people beat up on him a bit just because he happened to be the editor at the time that the regular series was cancelled.
TD: Its the economy. The economy, the economy, the economy. Heres the bottom line. Comic book stores were under-capitalized even when this was big business. I cannot even imagine where the hell they are now. One of the problems we had with SPIDER-GIRL, during the heyday, before the economy crashed, was a lot of stores, if you werent there Wednesday afternoon, you didnt get your copy of SPIDER-GIRL. And I think right now, the stores are cutting back so drastically that everybodys terrified. So a lot of the lower tier titles are getting hammered.
MA: Alright Tom, thats pretty much all the questions I have for you, but I just want to take a moment to thank you for spending all of this time; youve been extremely patient, and I really want to thank you for sharing your time and wisdom with us.
TD: Thank you, Matt!
MA: Thats it folks! Stay tuned for our interviews with Clone Saga co-writer Howard Mackie and artist extraordinaire Todd Nauck!
In most places, Matt Adler goes by the name his mother gave him, but occasionally uses the handle "CylverSaber", based on a character he created for the old Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight game (one telling hint of his overweening nerddom). He currently does IT and networking support for the government of Nassau County, NY, but his dream is to write for a living, and is in the process of figuring out how to get publishers to give his stuff a look. In the meantime, he passes the time by writing for AICN, CBR, and a few other places. He also formerly wrote for Marvel Spotlight magazine.
