Another GREAT interview, Matt!!!
Matt Adler talks THE CLONE SAGA with Howard Mackie!
Hi folks, Matt Adler here. To complete our Clone Saga trifecta, I spoke with Howard Mackie, the co-writer of the new SPIDER-MAN: CLONE SAGA miniseries, and the project's originator. Here goes...
Matt Adler (MA): Hi Howard. Can you tell us about the genesis of this new series?
Howard Mackie (HM): This project had a long, meandering origin which was born out of multiple conversations, over a period of years, with Editor Ralph Macchio. I would always kid around with him when talking about comic books, Hey, Ralph
you could always revisit the CLONE SAGA! WE would both get a laugh, and move on to talking about less serious subjects like politics, war, and famine. Somewhere along the line I discovered a notebook which contained the original notes from the very first meeting at which the clone story was discussed. It is very important to keep in mind that there was no such thing as a clone SAGA back in those days. The original notes showed that the story was planned as a three month event spread across the four monthly Spider-Man titles. That even surprised me. I remembered that we had planned a shorter storyline, but I had it at six months. Anyway, at some point Ralph talked to Joe Quesada, and I got a phone call from Ralph asking if I wanted to do a mini-series showing a version that was truer to what the writers originally imagined. My reaction was to laugh. What you have to know about Ralph Macchio is that he is a notorious practical joker. I am not convinced that this isnt one of the most elaborate pranks he has ever pulled off.
MA: I remember Tom saying that too
apparently Ralph called him one time to let him know that SPIDER-GIRL was uncancelled, and Tom, convinced it was another one of his practical jokes, hung up on him. What have been some of Ralph's best (or worst) practical jokes?
HM: I would LOVE to tell you, but then I would have to kill you. We all take an oath when we start at Marvel...what happens at Marvel, stays at Marvel.
MA: Ok, so what made you want to do this project?
HM: It was a chance to work with people and characters I really love. Ralph is probably one of the best editors to have ever worked in the business, and as far as comic book writers go--Tom knows where to buy the best pizza in New York City.
MA: How did Tom come on board?
HM: Kicking and screaming! All I will say is that I did the kicking, and you havent lived until youve heard Tom screaming.
MA: Duly noted! So what made you and Ralph decide to bring him in?
HM: I dont know that there was much bringing in. Toms name was associated with the project from early on. Like I said, it was a meandering road which lead to this project, and in the earliest discussions I probably said, Ralph, you could get me and Tom to revisit the Clone Saga. I chose ME, because I know me best of anyone, and Tom was the only one of the original writers doing regular writing work at Marvel. Also, Tom and I continued to talk on a semi-regular basis throughout the years. The reality is that memory is a funny thing. Even Tom and I remember certain story points differently. The goal with this mini-series was get back to basics, to strip away the extraneous stuff that got layered onto the original story, and to present the cleanest possible version of what was a pretty simple story at heart.
MA: Did you give any thought to bringing in Marc DeMatteis as well, given how important his role in the original saga was?
HM: If we had moved beyond two writers, I am not sure how we would have chosen amongst the many writers involved with the Clone Saga. Marc contributed to the story, but so did Terry Kavanagh (it was HE who suggested it in the first place), Dan Jurgens, Todd DeZago, Tom Lyle
who am I forgetting? I loved working with, and respect, every one of those guys. Some of my fondest memories of working in comic books come from sitting in meetings, talking on the telephone or just being around all of them. It was decided that it would be best if only two writers collaborated on this mini-series.
MA: Makes sense, given that Tom has been writing SPIDER-GIRL for more than a decade. Although Marc DeMatteis has been contributing more and more stories lately... did you hear he's going to be doing a Kaine story for the first issue of the new WEB OF SPIDER-MAN series?
HM: I heard Marc was writing a Kaine story, and I am looking forward to reading it when it comes out.
MA: Have you been surprised by the fan response to the announcement of the series?
HM: Yes
pleasantly so. I dont know if you surf the Internet at all, but the Clone Saga has not always had the best rap. The thing that struck me in reading various things on the Internet is that people would complain about the Clone Saga, and then go on about how wonderful Ben Reilly was. There is a big movement of Bring Back Ben Reilly folks. Of course without the Clone Saga, there would be no Ben Reilly, so I found that very curious. Anyway, this is a chance to give the fans of Ben Reilly another chance to see him in action.
MA: Yeah, I have seen a lot of that love Ben, hate the Clone Saga stuff. I guess the thing is that because it went on for so long, it became so many different things to so many different people. I mean, was it a story about the relationship between Peter, Ben, and Kaine? Or was it a big Maximum Clonage style enhanced cover event? Or was it about making Ben "The One True Spider-Man"? Or the return of Norman Osborn and the miscarriage of the baby? All of these perspectives may have been true at one point or another, right?
HM: Yes, these have all been true at some point in the story. What you describe are the capricious winds that blew at the writers. What Tom and I are attempting to do with THIS mini-series is strip away all the eventness--all the extraneous stuff--and tell that simple and exciting story that always dwelled at the core of what the writers intended.
MA: I see what you mean about the capricious winds. You could have liked Ben as the Scarlet Spider, but disapproved of him replacing Peter Parker. Or you might have liked Ben as Spider-Man, but were displeased with how the Saga was resolved. Do you think having all those wildly disparate elements/phases makes it more difficult for readers to embrace the original Saga as a whole?
HM: Yes, and that is why I think the original, short, simple and direct story should have been stuck to. Even if it had not ended the way some of the readers had wanted, it would have been a tighter story. One that could have been more easily resolved. Plus, I try not talk about "readers" as though they ALL agree on all things. This is an issue that the comic book industry has struggled with for years. Do you listen to the most vocal readers--those willing to post online--and then adjust your storylines according to their wishes? Or do you try to contrive a story that stands on its own merits? The Clone story became the Clone Saga because the powers that be got cold feet based on initial impact from a vocal group of readers. When the story was begun we knew it would be controversial, and that was part of the point. We needed a story that would draw attention to the Spider-Man line of books in the way that Death of Superman drew attention to the Superman books.
MA: How does your collaborative process with Tom work? What are his strengths as a writer, and how do they play off against yours?
HM: All kidding aside, Tom is without a doubt one of the best STORY guys in the business. I remember in the editorial dayswhen he was my pain in the neck bosshe was constantly helping writers and editors out of story jams. You would go into his office, shield yourself against his ugly ties, and say, Tom, Im having trouble with a story. Tom would say, Mr.Howard, tell me what youve got so far. You would then describe the story, or the problem youd run into with the character, and Tom would lean back in his chair, rock a little, and say, Heres somethin, and it might stink, but
and then he would help you figure you way out of any jam, or forward with any story. So, working with him has been easy. We start talking on the phone, and usually a half hour into the conversationafter we are done talking about the good old days, fixing the comic book industry, and bringing about world peacewe get down to talking about the story. One or the other of us will start by saying, THIS is what weve got to do this issue
and then there is just lots of back and forth. This continues in the writing. One of us (and we try to alternate) will write out a real rough outline of the story we talked about, and send it to the other guy. From there it is a layering process until the story is done.
MA: Ok, I realize fixing the comic book industry is partially tongue-in-cheek, but out of curiosity: if you had the resources, what would you do to fix it?
HM: I am not being paid nearly enough for this interview--or for the mini-series--to GIVE that one away. Sorry.
MA: Fair nuff! What are some of your recollections of what was going on at Marvel at that time that led to the Clone Saga going off the rails?
HM: Short answer
outside/non-creative influences got involved in the editorial/creative process. As a result the 3 month story arc was stretched out because of a perceived uptick in sales. Then, there was the editorial upheaval, and suddenly we had five EICs, and editors who were not involved in the original concept came on board, and had input into a story they did not necessarily support. This all lead to the story not being allowed to play out as the writers planned it. Had these two factors not existed there would never have been a clone SAGAjust another Spider-Man story arc.
MA: What would you say was personally the worst moment for you? How did you feel about the way it was eventually resolved?
HM: Worst moment? I try not to dwell on those. I far prefer to think about how much fundespite it allthe writers had working together. Buy me whiskey sometime, and Im sure I can drag out a few horror stories. In terms of how it was all resolved
I would have preferred that we had a chance to tell the story we had mapped out.
MA: And now you do! So how does this series improve upon the original? How different is it than what saw print back then?
HM: Tom and I set out to distill the story down to its most basic elements. We left out many characters and story threads that originally saw print. This is NOT an effort to squeeze two and half years of stories into six issues, but to get to the heart of the story we originally set out to tell.
MA: Was the Clone Saga intended to be a way to get back to Spider-Man being single, as some have said?
HM: My recollection is that the return to the single Spider-Man did enter the conversation eventually, but it was not the intent of the story when pitched, though it did seem to be an ideal way to bring that end goal about.
MA: Do you recall how that idea came about? Did you support it, and what were your thoughts in general on the issue of Spider-Man/Peter Parker being married?
HM: I cannot tell you specifically how that conversation came about, but I do know that it has been an ongoing part of every Spider-Man writer/editorial meeting ever since Spider-Man and MJ tied the knot.
MA: What were some of your favorite moments from the original Clone Saga? Are 6 issues enough to get everything in?
HM: I am probably not alone with this point of view, but its less about the moments than about the characters and some of the themes that were explored within the Clone Saga. Ben, Peter, and Kaine are at the heart of a tale that explores the issues of brotherhood. MJ getting pregnant allowed us to explore many of additional potential conflicts that would enter Peters life. Six issues will be a nice way to touch upon some of these themes, but the question to be asked is, Are 6 issues of Ben Reilly enough?
Howard Mackie (HM): This project had a long, meandering origin which was born out of multiple conversations, over a period of years, with Editor Ralph Macchio. I would always kid around with him when talking about comic books, Hey, Ralph
you could always revisit the CLONE SAGA! WE would both get a laugh, and move on to talking about less serious subjects like politics, war, and famine. Somewhere along the line I discovered a notebook which contained the original notes from the very first meeting at which the clone story was discussed. It is very important to keep in mind that there was no such thing as a clone SAGA back in those days. The original notes showed that the story was planned as a three month event spread across the four monthly Spider-Man titles. That even surprised me. I remembered that we had planned a shorter storyline, but I had it at six months. Anyway, at some point Ralph talked to Joe Quesada, and I got a phone call from Ralph asking if I wanted to do a mini-series showing a version that was truer to what the writers originally imagined. My reaction was to laugh. What you have to know about Ralph Macchio is that he is a notorious practical joker. I am not convinced that this isnt one of the most elaborate pranks he has ever pulled off.
MA: Did you give any thought to bringing in Marc DeMatteis as well, given how important his role in the original saga was? 
HM: Yes, and that is why I think the original, short, simple and direct story should have been stuck to. Even if it had not ended the way some of the readers had wanted, it would have been a tighter story. One that could have been more easily resolved. Plus, I try not talk about "readers" as though they ALL agree on all things. This is an issue that the comic book industry has struggled with for years. Do you listen to the most vocal readers--those willing to post online--and then adjust your storylines according to their wishes? Or do you try to contrive a story that stands on its own merits? The Clone story became the Clone Saga because the powers that be got cold feet based on initial impact from a vocal group of readers. When the story was begun we knew it would be controversial, and that was part of the point. We needed a story that would draw attention to the Spider-Man line of books in the way that Death of Superman drew attention to the Superman books. 
MA: And now you do! So how does this series improve upon the original? How different is it than what saw print back then? 
MA: You mentioned Terry earlier in the interview. What led to you guys becoming close friends? I recall him getting a bit of a hard time from fans at the time (the "Teen Tony" era of Iron Man comes to mind), and I always wondered if he was someone who just never really got to do his thing in the environment of the time. 
HM: Nope. 
HM: Returning? Did I ever leave? It doesnt feel that way at all. Maybe I have been working all these years under an assumed name? The people who work at Marvel now have the same level of commitment and enthusiasm that all people working in the comic book publishing business have always had. We may not be able to fill the shoes of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, but we maybe try on their socks for a while. 
How does the irony of this strike you 3 years later?
Meanwhile, I have just wrapped up an editorial consulting gig with an overseas graphic novel publisher. I am close to signing a deal with Harper Collins to adapt one of their award-winning YA novels into graphic novel form. I am particularly excited about this, and I will be working on a novel that is real favorite of my wife and two daughters. Meanwhile, I am developing a project, called HITTER, for VIPER COMICS (publishers of THE MIDDLE-MAN GN that spawned the ABC Family TV show) that will be more of a return to the horror/crime roots I explored with Ghost Rider. My editor (and writer extraordinaire) at Viper is a chap going by the name of Dale Mettam (ATTACK OF THE KILLER TOMATOES GN for Viper). Dale (I assume its an alias) and I are currently kicking around a bunch of ideas to work on together in the future.
