Over The Edge

[Memphis Slim]

I was just looking thru "Mighty Avengers", at the book shop. I just had a weird feeling about the state of comics today.

Gratuitous sex (I mean did Ultron have to be presented butt naked? ) and what is up with the language????


I mean every other word ballon had "!*&%#@!!" in it. Now granted that stop short of putting curse words in. But your brain can't help but fill in the blanks. And why do this?? Are they trying to make 616 into an Ultimates universe?? Do they think profane things is some symbol of being "more adult"???

Man...I couldn't buy the book. I can't leave that laying around for my kids to pick up and look thru it. Some of this stuff is becoming soft porn!

 

[PhotoJones]

This might be the only time I'll agree with you, and it's only a partial agreement. I agree that the book has some gratiutous shots in it. But the artists is Frank Cho, and that's his forte. I truely believe that it's all tongue in cheek. It's definitely not for everyone, and definitely not for young kids. I did notice the "All Ages" rating on the book, which is a little surprising to be honest. I'm not sure how much good Marvel's rating system does, but itf you're going to slap it on the books, might as well make it accurate and consistent, right?

As for the "bad language", I have to disagree. It's not even bad language, Slim. It's a series of %^&!@. That's not exactly the same as a four letter word begining in "F" and ending in "K". Comic books have long used that approach to cursing, so I don't see why you'd have a problem with it now. I mean, you have to understand that core audience of is made up of adults. You're telling me you don't utter a swear word or two when you're upset?

That said, I can understand you reasoning to not want the book in the hands of your children. That's acceptable, and frankly, probably responsible. But it's meant for them. It's meant for you. So for you to take offense to this book is overreacting a little. Do you only watch G-rated movies because you have kids? No, you watch adult movies too (and I'm NOT refering to porn), because you are an adult. Same thing applies here, Slim.

Your argument is pretty weak, but I can sort of see where you're coming from. The problem is that I know that you're a ultra conservative. And I grew up in a house like that, so I know you guys are scared to death of pee pee parts. I realize you'll grow out of that, but I thought perhaps I could give you my point of view as well.

Now, I've tried my hardest to respond to your post thoughfully and respectfully, so I'd hope you'd do the same, if you choose to reply back.

 

[Darthphere]

Wow, another one of these threads? Yay!

You already made this same ****ing thread, it's called The Official Mighty Avengers thread where you *****ed about the same thing.

Ultron is a robot, therefore it cannot be naked, unless you're Rosie from the Jetsons. If your kids are going to be traumatized by "%*&^^&*(" then you're clearly not doing something right and they will have a hard time when they reach the "real world"

Comics have always been about the T to the A, even back in the Silver Age. This is just the modern representation of all that.

Thank you.

Thus ends a Darthphere ******* moment of the day.

 

[Anubis]

Prude. Next you'll be asking them to cover up the statue of David.

 

[Blaktin America]

I prescribe two doses of Marvel Adventures and Archie comics.

 

[Zoken]

Um... how is fem-Ultron's difference any different than... say... Ms. Marvel or Black Widow? Their costumes are impossibly form fitting, you can see every detail EXCEPT those details. if anything, Fem-Ultron is actually more covered than the average super-woman

and for the language... I'm going to have to go ahead and quote Inheirit the wind: I don't curse for the Hell of it damnit! Words are important and there are so damned few anybody understands."

 

[kguillou]

Whoa, damn y'all are harsh. All Memphis Slim was trying to say is that Marvel's 616 is transforming more and more into Ultimate Universe and i definitly agree. The language is ridiculous in my opinion too. Bendis loves to make his characters curse up a storm. What bendis does with characters is both a good and a bad thing depending on how you look at it. He makes the marvel heroes talk more "casually" and more "modern" therefore they come off a more down-to earth people instead of high and mighty super-heroes.
The thing is, if your a long time comics fan, its just shocking to see your favorite super-heroes talk like this because before Bendis, these heroes woulda never cursed like that, especially heroes like Spider-Man.

So i agree with you Memphis Slim and oh yeah, why does Ultron have to be a naked woman? I like boobies as much as the next guy but come on...

 

[Memphis Slim]

Whoa, damn y'all are harsh. All Memphis Slim was trying to say is that Marvel's 616 is transforming more and more into Ultimate Universe and i definitly agree. The language is ridiculous in my opinion too. Bendis loves to make his characters curse up a storm. What bendis does with characters is both a good and a bad thing depending on how you look at it. He makes the marvel heroes talk more "casually" and more "modern" therefore they come off a more down-to earth people instead of high and mighty super-heroes.
The thing is, if your a long time comics fan, its just shocking to see your favorite super-heroes talk like this because before Bendis, these heroes woulda never cursed like that, especially heroes like Spider-Man.

So i agree with you Memphis Slim and oh yeah, why does Ultron have to be a naked woman? I like boobies as much as the next guy but come on...

Wow.....that's all I was saying. I am one of those long time comics readers. And to see Janet Van Dyne utter a "!@#*! in almost every book, just crazy. When did she start cussin' like a sailor? Ms. Marvel...Stark (even though I don't like him)......

And yeah...there were a thousand and one ways to present the new Ultron. Naked didn't need to be one of them unless Bendis is just getting his jollies..

 

[Memphis Slim]

This might be the only time I'll agree with you, and it's only a partial agreement. I agree that the book has some gratiutous shots in it. But the artists is Frank Cho, and that's his forte. I truely believe that it's all tongue in cheek. It's definitely not for everyone, and definitely not for young kids. I did notice the "All Ages" rating on the book, which is a little surprising to be honest. I'm not sure how much good Marvel's rating system does, but itf you're going to slap it on the books, might as well make it accurate and consistent, right?

"All Ages"? I missed that part. That makes what Marvel is doing even worse. Their rating system stinks.


As for the "bad language", I have to disagree. It's not even bad language, Slim. It's a series of %^&!@. That's not exactly the same as a four letter word begining in "F" and ending in "K". Comic books have long used that approach to cursing, so I don't see why you'd have a problem with it now. I mean, you have to understand that core audience of is made up of adults. You're telling me you don't utter a swear word or two when you're upset?

Believe it or not....no. I don't curse and never have. I was turned off by it as a child. Plus I don't need to curse. My vocabulary is extensive enough to express my thoughts without it. And it is bad language. We know what those symbols mean. And you can almost hear in your head, what was meant to be there. And yes...the core audience have been adults for quite some time...."without all this foul language". Why the need for it now?


That said, I can understand you reasoning to not want the book in the hands of your children. That's acceptable, and frankly, probably responsible. But it's meant for them. It's meant for you. So for you to take offense to this book is overreacting a little. Do you only watch G-rated movies because you have kids? No, you watch adult movies too (and I'm NOT refering to porn), because you are an adult. Same thing applies here, Slim.

Did you just say that it had an "All Ages" rating? That means they meant it for me and "my kids". And that's just wrong. I'm glad that you at least see part of my concern.

Your argument is pretty weak, but I can sort of see where you're coming from.

Okay.

The problem is that I know that you're a ultra conservative. And I grew up in a house like that, so I know you guys are scared to death of pee pee parts. I realize you'll grow out of that, but I thought perhaps I could give you my point of view as well.

First of all you start off with the assumption that being conservative is a problem. I could say that maybe your ultra-liberalism is the problem. And you assume that my parents were conservative because I am. Maybe you grew up fearing your pee parts. If so, God bless you. But that wasn't me. My dad is still pretty much wearing his Democrat contact lenses to bed. I formed my own opinions as a grew older and grew in my faith.


Now, I've tried my hardest to respond to your post thoughfully and respectfully, so I'd hope you'd do the same, if you choose to reply back.

I know that was your intent. But then you slide in the weird assumptions about my childhood. You probably could have done without all of that. But that's cool. Thanks.

 

[batnkevlar]

I figure some people in real life cuss up a storm, and some people don't, so to not to represent that in a comic would be a travesty to the art and storytelling...

 

[Darthphere]

I figure some people in real life cuss up a storm, and some people don't, so to not to represent that in a comic would be a travesty to the art and storytelling...

Pretty much. While you can have characters say " Oh damn" instead of "Oh ****" it just doesn't represent the society we live in today. People like Celldog, the good ol' boys are in the extreme minority now and need to get with the times.

And again, the new Ultron isn't naked, a robot can't be naked. It's pretty much the same thing as seeing a naked mannequin at the store, are you getting angry at Sears as well?

 

[The Question]

Believe it or not....no. I don't curse and never have. I was turned off by it as a child. Plus I don't need to curse. My vocabulary is extensive enough to express my thoughts without it. And it is bad language. We know what those symbols mean. And you can almost hear in your head, what was meant to be there. And yes...the core audience have been adults for quite some time...."without all this foul language". Why the need for it now?

Well, if this is about protecting the children, then the only way the children would know what those symbols mean, or would be able to hear what was supposed to be there in their heads, would be if they were already exposed to enough of "those words" to be familiar with them already. So the only way "%#*!" could do any damage is if the damage is already done.

 

[Darthphere]

I also feel I gotta add this part as well. Comics today are not written for kids, I don't care what crap rating system they have in place, even if it's All Ages you bet your ass that if it's outside Marvel Adventures, it's probably not for kids. This is a simple fact that comes from the undeniable fact that the vast majority of comic readers are teens or older. If you haven't gotten that by now, you're a lost cause.

And you can almost hear in your head, what was meant to be there. And yes...the core audience have been adults for quite some time...."without all this foul language". Why the need for it now?

Holy ****! Are you serious? "%&(*&#$@#@" has been showing up in comics since the eighties, probably even late 70's, this is not a sudden thing.

 

[kguillou]

I dunno Darthphere, i have to disagree with you, MAYBE once in a blue moon we woulda seen a @%^$!, but especially during the 70's and 80's, there was absolutely no cursing. Whenever heroes were pissed off they tended to say things like " Blasted!", " Crud!", "Darned!" and stuff like that. I think it was during the late 90's that they started loosening up a lil bit. Then Bendis came and revamped the Marvel universe giving everybody a modern tongue. But things were waaaay more innocent back in the 70's and 80's man.

 

[Memphis Slim]

I dunno Darthphere, i have to disagree with you, MAYBE once in a blue moon we woulda seen a @%^$!, but especially during the 70's and 80's, there was absolutely no cursing. Whenever heroes were pissed off they tended to say things like " Blasted!", " Crud!", "Darned!" and stuff like that. I think it was during the late 90's that they started loosening up a lil bit. Then Bendis came and revamped the Marvel universe giving everybody a modern tongue. But things were waaaay more innocent back in the 70's and 80's man.

Heck...even the 90's. And the core audience was still adult. And the stories were just fine.

 

[The Question]

I dunno Darthphere, i have to disagree with you, MAYBE once in a blue moon we woulda seen a @%^$!, but especially during the 70's and 80's, there was absolutely no cursing. Whenever heroes were pissed off they tended to say things like " Blasted!", " Crud!", "Darned!" and stuff like that. I think it was during the late 90's that they started loosening up a lil bit. Then Bendis came and revamped the Marvel universe giving everybody a modern tongue. But things were waaaay more innocent back in the 70's and 80's man.

Hardly. There may have been less swearing, censored or otherwise, but I wouldn't call the 80s innocent. The 80s had Frank Miller's Daredevil (which showed both a woman being impaled and the effects of an O.D. on PCP in quite a bit of detail), Batman, Wolverine, and Punisher. The 80s had Swamp Thing and V for Vendetta and The Watchmen. Hell, the 80s saw the birth of the Vertigo line. I really don't think a rise in censored swearing (which I'm not even sure there actually has been) has caused comics to be less innocent than they were in the 80s.

 

[PhotoJones]

I tried to be fair, and view his comments objectively, but it really is useless. He can't listen to reason or logic, and like any partisan dickbag, he can't put himself in other person's shoes.

*sigh*

Maybe he's heartbroken over Falwell's death and he feels directionless. No one to tell him who's fault it is (gays) for all the world's problems. There's no one to tell him that pee pee parts are the Devil's doing, and to look at them is to look into the Pit of Eternal Darkness.

Celldog exhibits the classic behavior of a conservative: a scared child who never grew out of Sunday School. Instead of having his own thoughts, he assumes the ideas and beliefs of the "the adults" (Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity).

It's not even worth it to tell him to grow up. He couldn't even if he wanted to. The Kool-Aid is too deep into his system. The only thing we can do is wait and hope that with time, he and his kind will die off. Hopefully it's like racism, and with each generation it gets smaller and smaller until *Poof*. Gone.

Bye Celldog. Nice knowing you.

 

[Memphis Slim]

Hardly. There may have been less swearing, censored or otherwise, but I wouldn't call the 80s innocent. The 80s had Frank Miller's Daredevil (which showed both a woman being impaled and the effects of an O.D. on PCP in quite a bit of detail), Batman, Wolverine, and Punisher. The 80s had Swamp Thing and V for Vendetta and The Watchmen. Hell, the 80s saw the birth of the Vertigo line. I really don't think a rise in censored swearing (which I'm not even sure there actually has been) has caused comics to be less innocent than they were in the 80s.

But wasn't "Swearing" pretty much the reason for this thread? I think innocent may be to strong a description....I'l give you that. But now it's just getting to where it's just shock value.

And that stuff was saved mostly for those Vertigo, Dark Horse titles.....The main universe was pretty much free from that. Now the main universe looks like Vertigo.

 

[The Question]

I tried to be fair, and view his comments objectively, but it really is useless. He can't listen to reason or logic, and like any partisan dickbag, he can't put himself in other person's shoes.

*sigh*

Maybe he's heartbroken over Falwell's death and he feels directionless. No one to tell him who's fault it is (gays) for all the world's problems. There's no one to tell him that pee pee parts are the Devil's doing, and to look at them is to look into the Pit of Eternal Darkness.

Celldog exhibits the classic behavior of a conservative: a scared child who never grew out of Sunday School. Instead of having his own thoughts, he assumes the ideas and beliefs of the "the adults" (Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity).

It's not even worth it to tell him to grow up. He couldn't even if he wanted to. The Kool-Aid is too deep into his system. The only thing we can do is wait and hope that with time, he and his kind will die off. Hopefully it's like racism, and with each generation it gets smaller and smaller until *Poof*. Gone.

Bye Celldog. Nice knowing you.

1) Wishing death on someone simply because you disagree politically is quite rude. And rudeness is the last thing one wants to resort to in a civilized debate.

2) Racism's never going away. It may be far less in America than it used to be, but there are always going to be dickwads who hate people for no good reason and make up a reason for it.

 

[The Question]

But wasn't "Swearing" pretty much the reason for this thread? I think innocent may be to strong a description....I'l give you that. But now it's just getting to where it's just shock value.

The swearing was the reason. My point is that if you're worried about the moral integrity of comics or whatever, it's by far the smallest problem. Especially since most of the time it's censored, so nobody but people who know what those words are already will get it. And I hardly think a few illegible cuss words are for shock value. People swear. And some writes like to write certain aspects of their comics, like human behavior, rather realistically. And since comics are read by a wide age group, they have the swear words made illegible, so any kids who don't know any swear words won't learn any new ones.

And that stuff was saved mostly for those Vertigo, Dark Horse titles.....The main universe was pretty much free from that. Now the main universe looks like Vertigo.

No, not really. First off, Vertigo titles like Hellblazer, Sandman, and Swamp Thing are in the "main universe." DC characters such as Zatanna, Martian Manhunter, and Superman have apeared in those tittles from time to time. Secondly, all of the Marvel examples I gave were in the "main universe." Bullseye impaling Elektra, Wolverine slicing up hundreds of yakuza assassins, Frank shooting up a Brazillian drug cartel, all of that's in continuity and was on the same stands as that month's Fantastic Four. Hell, if you go back even further, you see stuff like Gwen Stacy's death, The Green Goblin's fairly graphic death, and Harry Osborn's drug addiction. So, wether or not there's a particulral problem with any of that, I hardly think it's gotten worse.

 

[Memphis Slim]

I tried to be fair, and view his comments objectively, but it really is useless. He can't listen to reason or logic, and like any partisan dickbag, he can't put himself in other person's shoes.

*sigh*

No you didn't and I could see right thru it. t: All your little smarmy comments about me being conservative and trying talk about my upbringing. You're just a cat with no class. You can't help yourself.


Maybe he's heartbroken over Falwell's death and he feels directionless. No one to tell him who's fault it is (gays) for all the world's problems. There's no one to tell him that pee pee parts are the Devil's doing, and to look at them is to look into the Pit of Eternal Darkness.

Slim exhibits the classic behavior of a conservative: a scared child who never grew out of Sunday School. Instead of having his own thoughts, he assumes the ideas and beliefs of the "the adults" (Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity).

And you exhibit the classic behavior of an out-of-control lib that would sell his own mother down the river, if you could benefit you. I just said my dad was Democrat. You must have missed that part. Yet I formed my own view. And you sure like talking about "pee parts". I sense some possible family issues on your end maybe??


It's not even worth it to tell him to grow up. He couldn't even if he wanted to. The Kool-Aid is too deep into his system. The only thing we can do is wait and hope that with time, he and his kind will die off. Hopefully it's like racism, and with each generation it gets smaller and smaller until *Poof*. Gone.

Bye Slim. Nice knowing you.

Well.......I won't stoop to your level and wish death upon you. Your opinions about life don't bother me that much. But again it goes back to the lack of class you have, that I mentioned.

 

[PhotoJones]

1) Wishing death on someone simply because you disagree politically is quite rude. And rudeness is the last thing one wants to resort to in a civilized debate.

2) Racism's never going away. It may be far less in America than it used to be, but there are always going to be dickwads who hate people for no good reason and make up a reason for it.

1). It's all in jest.
2). I have the hope that it'll be a dying trend. It's moving away much too slowly, but like you said, it is decreasing.

Well.......I won't stoop to your level and wish death upon you. Your opinions about life don't bother me that much. But again it goes back to the lack of class you have, that I mentioned.

For you to talk about class is ludicrous. All I need to do is point people in the direction of your posts on the Community Board.

Secondly, I never said anything about your upbringing. I refered to my upbringing. That was the straw the broke the camel's for me. I tried to be nice, and you didn't have the decency to read what I had to say. It's impossible to have a discussion with people like you. You're so busy trying to dissect people's words and look for ways you can "cleverly" jab back, that you fail to even comprehend simple text.

 

[Darthphere]

I dunno Darthphere, i have to disagree with you, MAYBE once in a blue moon we woulda seen a @%^$!, but especially during the 70's and 80's, there was absolutely no cursing. Whenever heroes were pissed off they tended to say things like " Blasted!", " Crud!", "Darned!" and stuff like that. I think it was during the late 90's that they started loosening up a lil bit. Then Bendis came and revamped the Marvel universe giving everybody a modern tongue. But things were waaaay more innocent back in the 70's and 80's man.

How old are you? Have you ever read comics from that era? Because frankly, you would see why this is bull****.

Heck...even the 90's. And the core audience was still adult. And the stories were just fine.

In the nineties the core audience was still kids, I don't know where the hell you're getting your info from. That was the age of the X-Men, Hulk, Batman: TAS, Spider-Man cartoons, all comics were geared towards kids, and had half naked X-Men running around and saying '$%$%^", really.

 

[Darthphere]

But wasn't "Swearing" pretty much the reason for this thread? I think innocent may be to strong a description....I'l give you that. But now it's just getting to where it's just shock value.

And that stuff was saved mostly for those Vertigo, Dark Horse titles.....The main universe was pretty much free from that. Now the main universe looks like Vertigo.

Swearing in comics isn't for shock value, it's the way people talk. I mean I've heard people say ass and ***** in PG movies, it's time for you to get with the times. Especially when if your kids have never been exposed to curse words than they would have n clue what $%^%^% is, would they? Answer the question, would they? This is just something that you chose to blow way out of proportion like always.

 

[PhotoJones]

In the nineties the core audience was still kids, I don't know where the hell you're getting your info from. That was the age of the X-Men, Hulk, Batman: TAS, Spider-Man cartoons, all comics were geared towards kids, and had half naked X-Men running around and saying '$%$%^", really.

My school actually took away my X-Men comics because of the scantily clad women. This was in 1992.